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Old 09-30-2004, 03:15 AM   #151
SaabTuner
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Oops, missed the oXygenates:

Oxygenates
Published octane values vary a lot because the rating conditions are
significantly different to standard conditions, for example the API Project
45 numbers used above for the hydrocarbons, reported in 1957, gave MTBE
blending RON as 148 and MON as 146, however that was partly based on the
lead response, whereas today we use MTBE in place of lead.

methanol 133 : 105 : 65 : 0.796 : 385
ethanol 129 : 102 : 78 : 0.794 : 365
iso propyl alcohol 118 : 98 : 82 : 0.790 : 399
methyl tertiary butyl ether 116 : 103 : 55 : 0.745 :
ethyl tertiary butyl ether 118 : 102 : 72 : 0.745 :
tertiary amyl methyl ether 111 : 98 : 86 : 0.776 :

There ya go.

Adrian~
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Old 09-30-2004, 09:10 AM   #152
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he said the torco race fuel concentrate has no toulene...not gasoline...
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Old 09-30-2004, 04:04 PM   #153
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"He also told me that Torco's race fuels don't contain any Toluene."

Torco doesn't just make "Accellerator" which is the octane booster, they also make various grades of race fuel. Some of which I'm sure contain Toluene and/or other Aromatics.


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Old 09-30-2004, 09:18 PM   #154
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I asked specifically if their racing gas contained Toluene. He told me that all Torco racing fuels contain no Toluene.
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:33 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrex
I asked specifically if their racing gas contained Toluene. He told me that all Torco racing fuels contain no Toluene.
No toulene? What about Xylene?
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Old 06-01-2005, 02:31 PM   #156
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For those mixing Toluene:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780608


Interesting to see that the blending value of Toluene is right around 102-103, not 114 or 117 as often (even by me) quoted.

Jeff
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Old 06-02-2005, 10:33 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth2000
Just an update ...

I've now been using the Torco Unleaded version for 10,500 miles in my STi ...

It is still working great ... and I have yet to see one side affect ...

I will continue to use it on a daily basis.

http://www.need4speedpower.com/torco.html

Is your car tuned, or are you just adding it for safety factor?

If it is tuned to what Octane?

A real test would be to tune your car for 100 octane and continue to just add Torco to a tank of 91 - If it knocks, then you know you don't have 100.

What I really want is 94 so maybe I will tune my car for 94 and then add torco to a tank of 91 - if there is no knock I would be VERY happy.

Last edited by AntiochCali; 06-02-2005 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:43 PM   #158
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Revival.
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Old 02-12-2006, 03:02 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXTuning
For those mixing Toluene:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780608

Interesting to see that the blending value of Toluene is right around 102-103, not 114 or 117 as often (even by me) quoted.
Well I'll be dipped in ....

Thanks for reposting that as I didn't catch it the first time around - that "fuel calculator" link is now in the trash.
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:16 AM   #160
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Default nice tunes, very smooth!

Last summer I was running a stage IV rex with an 18g and got a set of UTEC maps from Mick and Tim at PdxTuning. Here are a couple of dyno plots with the only variable being the addition of Torco, 1 oz to 1 gal of 92.

The first plot is 92 + WI (100% H2O)... 21 psi, 11.8:1 AFR, 24 degrees of timing at redline:


Last edited by ka mano; 02-12-2006 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 02-12-2006, 03:53 PM   #161
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The next plot is 92 + WI + Torco... 21 psi, 11.8:1 AFR, 25 degrees of timing at redline:


With 1 oz of Torco added to 1 gal of 92, that's an increase of ~10 whp and ~11 ft. lbs. of wtq.

Last edited by ka mano; 02-12-2006 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 02-12-2006, 04:45 PM   #162
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1 oz of torco??? like one shotglass full?

you mean 32 oz right? One can?
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:01 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ka mano
...With 1 oz of Torco added to 1 gal of 92... .
...or 15 oz added to 15 gallons. Roughly half a bottle per tank.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:51 PM   #164
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^^^ Could you have gotten more out of it, or was it a safe tune? Also, by running water injection, could this be altering the benefits you might see if you were just running the 1 oz torco / 1 gal 92 octane mix straight without the water injection? Just curious.

What would be the cons of running 1 gal of meth per tank of regular 93 octane gas? If bad for my fuel system, could I add one oz of klotz per gall of meth to alleviate that problem? Seems like the meth would be better than the torco...

I'm very interested in the torco if it will yield enough octane/power since it is more convenient than mixing fuels. However, if it's only going to yield 10whp, it's not worth my trouble - except maybe for precautionary reasons if I'm afraid of detonation (as opposed to making power).

Last edited by SilverSurfer04STi; 02-12-2006 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:26 PM   #165
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Default quothe the race fuel, "Nevermore."

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSurfer04STi
^^^ Could you have gotten more out of it, or was it a safe tune? Also, by running water injection, could this be altering the benefits you might see if you were just running the 1 oz torco / 1 gal 92 octane mix straight without the water injection? Just curious.
It was a safe tune. Notice I was using and tuning for half the recommended quantity of Torco. Next month my new 2.5L / GT30R.82 / stage 2 cams set-up will be tuned using 2 oz of Torco to 1 gal. of 92.

WI and Torco reduce detonation in different ways. Last summer we didn't tune for Torco without WI. WI alone had allowed for an increase of ~12 whp and ~12 ft lbs of wtq. Then on top of that, Torco added the points I noted above. I didn't spend the dough on maps I wasn't going to use, but if Torco's effect is specific to a particular band of temperatures like some other additives, then it would have some type of interaction with water. Each will have its own role to play, though, in a high performance situation.

Water injection fights det by cooling the cylinder walls, something tuners will try to accomplish otherwise by dumping extra fuel in to absorb heat. Water absorbs heat 7 times better than gasoline, significantly decreasing EGTs and/or allowing for a higher power tune.

Torco's not saying exactly what their product does, but it is intervening at a different level.

The octane of the fuel has to do with the mix of its hydrocarbons and the complexity of their molecular bonding. Higher octane fuels have more of the hydrocarbons that have the stronger primary C-H bonds able to withstand higher pressure and heat.

During combustion, unburned hydrocarbons with weaker C-H bonds are more likely to break down into gases that will ignite on their own accord under the increasing pressure from the piston's upstroke. The pressure waves from those unwanted ignitions not only are premature, retarding normal piston function, but they compete with the pressure wave created by the proper flame front and add to absolute cylinder pressure. Don't want that to come knock, knock, knocking on your combustion chamber door.

Additives like toulene actually increase octane while others like lead help conteract the effects of lower octanes. Water is just about lowering temps and doesn't otherwise interact with the pathways of molecular decomposition.
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:07 PM   #166
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Thanks for the info ka mano. So to answer my first question, you could definitely have gotten more power out of the tune, especially if you would have added 2 oz of torco for every 1 gallon of 92 octane fuel.

Can anybody answer my second question - that is:
What would be the cons of running 1 gal of meth per tank of regular 93 octane gas? If bad for my fuel system, could I add one oz of klotz per gall of meth to alleviate that problem? Seems like the meth would be better than the torco...

After reading this thread in it's entirety, it sounds like adding methanol would be a "linear" increase in octane, so I could basically do a straight average. So, 14 gallons of 93 octane + 1 gallon of methanol (I've heard meth has an octane as high as 130) would yield me something like this: 14 * 93 + 130 = 1432 / 15 = ~95.5 octane. If this is correct, it actually sounds like torco would be more beneficial, unless I were to up the amount of methanol of course...
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:15 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ka mano
The octane of the fuel has to do with the mix of its hydrocarbons and the complexity of their molecular bonding. Higher octane fuels have more of the hydrocarbons that have the stronger primary C-H bonds able to withstand higher pressure and heat.

During combustion, unburned hydrocarbons with weaker C-H bonds are more likely to break down into gases that will ignite on their own accord under the increasing pressure from the piston's upstroke. The pressure waves from those unwanted ignitions not only are premature, retarding normal piston function, but they compete with the pressure wave created by the proper flame front and add to absolute cylinder pressure. Don't want that to come knock, knock, knocking on your combustion chamber door.
Actually, not that it matters, but that's subject to pretty intense debate. NASA has a lot of good, albeit old, evidence pointing to the source of detonation being locaed behind the advancing flamefront. This is a good example: http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/digidoc/re...ACA-TR-912.PDF

-Adrian
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:58 AM   #168
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You're right, I could have been clearer that not all auto-ignition needs to be 'premature.' 'Unburned' is really neutral to the postion of the flame front. The main point about octane is that higher octane fuels contain more of the hydrocarbons which are less likely to decompose and succumb to the unpredicted combustion that causes pressure spikes beyond tolerances, irregularities across cylinders, and the oscillations that come with erratic and competing pressure waves.

Thanks for the interesting article! You might like this one:
Wartime Report
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Old 02-16-2006, 12:14 AM   #169
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Well, I've ordered a 5 gallon jug, along with a couple bottles of GTA. So I will see first hand if the stuff works or not. If it doesn't, I wonder if it tastes like cheap tequilla?
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Old 02-16-2006, 12:49 AM   #170
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Ways it [Torco] might work:
1. give you a smoother ride
2. give you a margin of safety against knock
3. give your tuner the chance to exploit that margin of safety with a more aggressive tune
I wouldn't expect much of a butt-dyno effect [from Torco] w/o being retuned.

Last edited by ka mano; 02-16-2006 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:01 AM   #171
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Coincidence or not, my old WRX ran 1mph greater trap speeds and got better gas mileage when running GTA. It is just a pain to put in...sticky as all get out.

VV
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:39 AM   #172
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I plan to premix the GTA and Torco in one of these 1 liter bottles:
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Old 02-17-2006, 05:41 PM   #173
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FYI for central texas people MZM Performance now stocks Torco just swing buy and pick some up! No more dispensing and you bring in a container and smelling like feul etc...these are sealed and ready to go
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Old 02-25-2006, 06:28 PM   #174
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Guys I am a bit confused on how Torco and Toluene/Xylene work to make real power.

I understand they are able to up the octane rating several numbers(not points) but there is more to "race gas" than just high octane. Sure Torco and Toluene/Xylene added to regular gas will decrease knock by raising the octane number, but from what I know about race gas it's more than just octane rating which in this case octane = Antiknock Index (R+M)/2.

There is also RON (Research Octane) and MON (Motor Octane) as well as increased oxygen %.

Sunoco GT100 Race gas has a octane of 100, a RON of 105 and a MON of 95 for example. It also has 3.5% oxygen. The high oxygen content has a supercharging effect, since 3.5% oxygen is the equivalent to about 17% more air. Different fuels can actually alter horsepower 5-to-10 percent or more. Race gas will help make additional horsepower besides increasing the headroom for knock and allowing timing advances.

That said I understand how Toluene/Xylene raise the Antiknock Index (R+M)/2 in 20-30% mixtures which is usually several gallons.

What I don't understand is how only 32oz(0.25 gallons) added to 10 gallons of 93 octane can raise it to 104 octane. Think about it LOGICALLY how can a TINY little bit of ANYTHING raise 10 gallons of 93 to 10? It just doesn't compute. The octane rating alone would have to be somewhere around 500-550!!

I also think without the other contents that real race gas has in it, all it is doing is rasing the Antiknock Index (R+M)/2 and only providing some power by timing advances or allowing the boost to be turned up a bit. It doesn't provide the additional hp that true race gas adds.

I'd love to learn more about Torco, what octane rating it is and how it works because it would cut my Sunoco GTPlus(104 octane) race gas bill in half!
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Old 02-26-2006, 08:18 AM   #175
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jenner, it is a chemical (mmt) which buffers the combustion process, just like tetraethyl lead in leaded gas. as a result the octane does not linearly scale when added to gasoline as it does when adding aromatics.

mmt DOES work to raise the octane significantly. if you can retune your engine to take advantage of that, you WILL make more power.

is it a true race gas? no... but it is damned close and FAR more conventient.
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