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Old 09-30-2015, 10:15 AM   #1
warpath
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Default Is Mazda's Sports Car Concept The New RX-7 We've Been Waiting For? (Probably Not)

Jalopnik:http://jalopnik.com/is-mazdas-sports...wai-1733761746




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Should this be the next Mazda RX-7? Yes, based on its size alone, it really should be. But we’ll have to wait until the Tokyo Motor Show next month to learn what exactly Mazda has in mind this time.


I Just Don't Even Believe Reports About A New Mazda RX-7 Anymore
Oh hey, look. Another day, another news report about a new Mazda RX-7 that's in the works, for …

The last concept we saw from Mazda was the Koeru at the Frankfurt Motor Show, a large crossover previewing the next CX-7 and the evolution of their KODO design language.

Now, they have something vastly more interesting. A front-engined, mostly likely rear-wheel drive sports car with enough curves to make our hearts beat just a little bit faster. Here it is lightened up, which unfortunately doesn’t reveal much except some nice curves:


I’m still not optimistic about rotary power given ever-tightening fuel economy and emissions standards. Mazda has been on and off the rotary train in recent years, and I don’t want to speculate here.

I just want this to be real, and at least as good as a new Miata. That will do, with or without triangles in the engine.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:56 AM   #2
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I'm sure whatever it is they won't make it or if they do it will be under powered. I'd love Mazda to make a RWD, 4 seat or 2+2 coupe with some respectable power.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:20 AM   #3
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I'm sure whatever it is they won't make it or if they do it will be under powered. I'd love Mazda to make a RWD, 4 seat or 2+2 coupe with some respectable power.
Don't forget horrible on fuel and unreliable (because Wankel), also must be plagued with oil consumption issues (again, Wankel). Admittedly, excessive oil consumption was partly due to Mazda specifying a lighter oil than they should in the States (because EPA). Those Mazda Wankels guzzle more oil and fuel than Turbo Subaru Boxers do!
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:27 AM   #4
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Don't forget horrible on fuel and unreliable (because Wankel), also must be plagued with oil consumption issues (again, Wankel). Admittedly, excessive oil consumption was partly due to Mazda specifying a lighter oil than they should in the States (because EPA). Those Mazda Wankels guzzle more oil and fuel than Turbo Subaru Boxers do!
You are making the assumption that this is a rotary which I doubt as they aren't there yet. I think at some point Mazda will release a hybrid rotary but that is probably 5-10 years away.

I'd also posit that the 16b is no less reliable that the EJ in the STI. I personally don't care for the sound and lack of torque but if properly maintained I doubt its any worse, just takes extra effort I'm not willing to do.

A larger Miata with a turbo 6 and light weight for it's segment would be awesome and entirely doable in my opinion.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:33 AM   #5
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You are making the assumption that this is a rotary which I doubt as they aren't there yet. I think at some point Mazda will release a hybrid rotary but that is probably 5-10 years away.

I'd also posit that the 16b is no less reliable that the EJ in the STI. I personally don't care for the sound and lack of torque but if properly maintained I doubt its any worse, just takes extra effort I'm not willing to do.

A larger Miata with a turbo 6 and light weight for it's segment would be awesome and entirely doable in my opinion.
hey I'm one of those guys that thinks an FD Rx7 with an ls swap is a good idea, hell the RX8 would have been better with the Disi2.3 that was in the ms3/ms6. But for some reason, Mazda kept the Wankel because heritage.

Ii agree a larger Miata with a DIT 6 would dominate in it's market, but Mazda doesn't do stuff like that, they make FWD cars that fight you tooth and nail under acceleration and slow RWD cars that are slow, but handle really well, but are slow, also "cool" appliances (aka slow cars).
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Don't forget horrible on fuel and unreliable (because Wankel), also must be plagued with oil consumption issues (again, Wankel). Admittedly, excessive oil consumption was partly due to Mazda specifying a lighter oil than they should in the States (because EPA). Those Mazda Wankels guzzle more oil and fuel than Turbo Subaru Boxers do!
Oh look, another person that had their fingers puke on their keyboard without understanding facts.

Lots of people (like yourself) have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that the Renesis oil consumption was part of the design, not a defect.

1) In the manual it suggests checking and adding oil if necessary every 1500 or so miles.

2) Every oil change, you put in 4 qts, not your typical "5" per change. When you add a qt at 1500 miles, you are now on your... 5th qt, like every single other car.

4qts at change and 1qt between changes = 5qts.

Most people in the US took that as a "problem", when in fact, you're using the same amount of oil you would as every other car out there, add onto that where people just simply don't want to take an active stance in their cars maintenance these days ... and you run into those that just don't get it.

The general public constantly repeat wrongisms (like you did) and others less knowledgeable not knowing otherwise, regurgitate it (like you did).

--kC
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:52 AM   #7
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Oh look, another person that had their fingers puke on their keyboard without understanding facts.

Lots of people (like yourself) have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that the Renesis oil consumption was part of the design, not a defect.

1) In the manual it suggests checking and adding oil if necessary every 1500 or so miles.

2) Every oil change, you put in 4 qts, not your typical "5" per change. When you add a qt at 1500 miles, you are now on your... 5th qt, like every single other car.

Most people in the US took that as a "problem", when in fact, you're using the same amount of oil you would as every other car out there, add onto that where people just simply don't want to take an active stance in their cars maintenance these days ... and you run into those that just don't get it.

The general public constantly repeat wrongisms (like you did) and others less knowledgeable not knowing otherwise, regurgitate it.

--kC
KC apparently we're going to butt heads today in N&R, look at was I said, and I quote myself "Admittedly, excessive oil consumption was partly due to Mazda specifying a lighter oil than they should in the States (because EPA)" I am well aware that oil consumption is inherent in the design, I was referring to the excessive oil consumption due to specifying a lighter oil in America when compared to the rest of the world. I did a lot of research on RX8's many moons ago because I was considering one.
The RX7 problems were essentially related to cooling, it is entirely possible to drive an RX7 daily by doing cooling system upgrades, it is entirely possible to DD an RX8, use a heavier oil and check it regularly.

I will disagree with you about consumption rates however, Wankel's do consume more oil than other engines (I,V,H,W.).
A four quart (more or less) capacity is common on small displacement engines (Toyota 1.5l & 1.8l have a 4.2qt capacity for instance). Oil capacity is a function of displacement & intended use, 5qt capacity is not "standard".
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:14 AM   #8
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....

I will disagree with you about consumption rates however, Wankel's do consume more oil than other engines (I,V,H,W.).
A four quart (more or less) capacity is common on small displacement engines (Toyota 1.5l & 1.8l have a 4.2qt capacity for instance). Oil capacity is a function of displacement & intended use, 5qt capacity is not "standard".
Both my WRX and 650i both consume as much oil as my FD did. Both are known widely to do so. The irony is that the rotary was designed to, and those piston engines ... weren't.

I don't bring that up to bash my WRX (which I thoroughly enjoyed) or my 650i (which I currently enjoy), but tired of oil consumption being trump-ted about. The rotary is, by no means, perfect, but it's advantages - extremely compact, providing low center of gravity and easier packaging in a chassis, as well as its high rev capability - outweigh the disadvantages IMHO, which is all I care about in a sports car.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:09 AM   #9
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Put a supercharged 6 in there, beefed up like was in the MilleniaS and ... yep.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:13 AM   #10
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You know what would be funny, if when they turned on the lights, it has that body with huge crossover tires and about 10 " of ground clearance.

Come to think of it.

Yeah, build that!
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Old 09-30-2015, 02:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
You know what would be funny, if when they turned on the lights, it has that body with huge crossover tires and about 10 " of ground clearance.

Come to think of it.

Yeah, build that!
Filthy whore.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:24 AM   #12
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The only thing people want from a Mazda engine bay is a turbo, nobody cares about rotary engines.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:26 AM   #13
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The only thing people want from a Mazda engine bay is a turbo, nobody cares about rotary engines.
but magic triangle, because Illuminati

rotary rotor has three sides, Half life 3 confirmed!
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Old 09-30-2015, 02:10 PM   #14
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The RX-7 is never coming back and amid VW's diesel issues I'd expect to see very close scrutiny over a Wankel engine. It's never happening, Mazda should stop stoking the flames.

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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
hey I'm one of those guys that thinks an FD Rx7 with an ls swap is a good idea, hell the RX8 would have been better with the Disi2.3 that was in the ms3/ms6. But for some reason, Mazda kept the Wankel because heritage.

Ii agree a larger Miata with a DIT 6 would dominate in it's market, but Mazda doesn't do stuff like that, they make FWD cars that fight you tooth and nail under acceleration and slow RWD cars that are slow, but handle really well, but are slow, also "cool" appliances (aka slow cars).
DISI 2.3 RX-8 would have been a SLICK car. Also a turbo Miata.
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Old 09-30-2015, 02:17 PM   #15
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The only way we will see a rotary again in the US would be with a hybrid electric motor (my guess).

I loved the RX-7 platform. Owned three different generations of them with two of them going over 100K miles with little issue outside of checking the oil weekly.

People love to poke fun at the Wankel, but none of my RX-7's ever had major engine issues and I drove the snot out of them. I probably trust them more than a Subaru boxer engine.
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Old 09-30-2015, 02:38 PM   #16
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I've said before, on this forum, that my 11 years with a 13B-powered RX7 were a delight. It used a bit more oil at 255,000 miles and was ready for its 2nd trans rebuild, but the motor was solid.

Things that wore out before the motor:
driveshaft (U joints froze and were not replaceable)
seats
power steering
transmission x2
ball joints
suspension struts
A/C
weather stripping
rubber on the steering wheel
hatch struts
stereo speakers

The only repairs on the motor were
1. leaking fuel rail
2. gunked up TPS
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:21 PM   #17
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why did the last gen rx7 need so many motor rebuilds all the time?
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Old 09-30-2015, 05:16 PM   #18
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why did the last gen rx7 need so many motor rebuilds all the time?
I researched this a lot like 15 years ago when I was considering an FD. I seriously scoured rx7club for like two years reading every technical post I could find. It's a complicated issue. The short answer is that rotaries have no tolerance whatsoever to detonation. It's not a good thing in any engine, but in a rotary, it's a blown apex seal almost guarenteed. The sequential twin turbo system in the FD was comprised of a vastly overcomplicated series of vacuum tubes which were prone to failure/leaks would could cause boost issues (not ideal since preventing detonation is so important). The cooling system was likewise also slightly underdeveloped considering how important engine cooling and especially intercooling can be in helping prevent detonation.

There are a series of "reliability mods" that people recommend like beefing up the cooling system and either replacing the "rat's nest" of vacuum lines with stronger ones or better yet outright swapping the whole twin turbo system for a simpler (usually single) turbo setup. In my research way back when, I found that the guys with a single turbo, fan mod, a big V-mount intercooler setup, ample fuel system, and a conservative tune seemed to be the best bet. And there are plenty of people with decent setups that don't have trouble with the engine.

Another big problem also was that the car was getting affordable when TFATF came out and the tuner rage kicked into full force; which meant there were a lot of idiot kids that bought an FD, slapped an intake, exhaust, and boost controller on it, and blew their apex seals into space and started crying about how unreliable the car is... which certainly didn't help it's reputation any. Likewise, I remember people were spouting off at the mouth about how unreliable the RX-8 was before it even came out due to the stigma of the FD; when many N/A 12A's and 13B's were known lasting past the 300K mile mark as long as they were cared for. And indeed, a couple issues aside, RX-8's generally do quite well when cared for properly.

Despite my willingness to run to the defense of the rotary, I will admit that even with all the reliability mods done, I probably wouldn't recommend the FD to anyone as their only car. I do think the issues are overblown, if you do your research and take care of your car properly, you can have a good experience.

Last edited by Skunkers; 09-30-2015 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
I researched this a lot like 15 years ago when I was considering an FD. I seriously scoured rx7club for like two years reading every technical post I could find. It's a complicated issue. The short answer is that rotaries have no tolerance whatsoever to detonation. It's not a good thing in any engine, but in a rotary, it's a blown apex seal almost guarenteed. The sequential twin turbo system in the FD was comprised of a vastly overcomplicated series of vacuum tubes which were prone to failure/leaks would could cause boost issues (not ideal since preventing detonation is so important). The cooling system was likewise also slightly underdeveloped considering how important engine cooling and especially intercooling can be in helping prevent detonation.

There are a series of "reliability mods" that people recommend like beefing up the cooling system and either replacing the "rat's nest" of vacuum lines with stronger ones or better yet outright swapping the whole twin turbo system for a simpler (usually single) turbo setup. In my research way back when, I found that the guys with a single turbo, fan mod, a big V-mount intercooler setup, ample fuel system, and a conservative tune seemed to be the best bet. And there are plenty of people with decent setups that don't have trouble with the engine.

Another big problem also was that the car was getting affordable when TFATF came out and the tuner rage kicked into full force; which meant there were a lot of idiot kids that bought an FD, slapped an intake, exhaust, and boost controller on it, and blew their apex seals into space and started crying about how unreliable the car is... which certainly didn't help it's reputation any. Likewise, I remember people were spouting off at the mouth about how unreliable the RX-8 was before it even came out due to the stigma of the FD; when many N/A 12A's and 13B's were known lasting past the 300K mile mark as long as they were cared for. And indeed, a couple issues aside, RX-8's generally do quite well when cared for properly.

Despite my willingness to run to the defense of the rotary, I will admit that even with all the reliability mods done, I probably wouldn't recommend the FD to anyone as their only car. I do think the issues are overblown, if you do your research and take care of your car properly, you can have a good experience.
Picture is worth a thousand words....

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Old 10-01-2015, 09:32 AM   #20
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Default Mazda RX-7 And Honda S2000 Resurrected In The Digital Realm



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What are the chances of seeing two of the hottest Japanese names in the sports car segment, the Mazda RX-7 coupe and the Honda S2000 roadster, coming back to life?

We'll get back to you on the rotary-powered coupe right after Mazda fully-discloses its upcoming "Sports Car Concept" at next month's Tokyo Motor Show, as there's a possibility it could be RX-7-related, but as far as Honda is concerned, and beyond the occasional rumors, there's nothing official on a direct replacement for the S2000 at this time.

The only thing we've seen in regards to Honda, are some patent images of what could be a 'baby NSX' with a mid-engine setup, and which we recently rendered to give you an idea of what it could look like in the flesh.

Speaking of renders brings us to these two digital creations from Japanese photoshop-er Patty who tried to revive the spirit of the Mazda RX-7 and the Honda S2000 in our times.

It's not immediately obvious, thanks to Patty's rendering skills, but the RX-7 study is actually based on a picture of Mazda's four-door Shinari sports sedan, while the S2000, on a photo of a Jaguar F-Type Roadster with the face of the Japanese firm's 2013 Urban Concept that previewed the HR-V.

The S2000 is kind of meh, to be frank, but the RX-7 does look enticing, don't you think?
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Old 10-01-2015, 11:46 AM   #21
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Picture is worth a thousand words....

I now have only 3 vacuum lines. BB single turbo upgrade, er, reliability mod. =)
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Old 10-01-2015, 08:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by boostdog View Post
why did the last gen rx7 need so many motor rebuilds all the time?
Among other reasons, the ECU was speed density based, not MAF. When something was done to increase airflow into the engine or a vacuum leak started, the ECU could seriously screw up the A/F ratio, and kaboom! You need new apex seals....
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:21 PM   #23
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Who cares about oil consumption, it's the GAS consumption that really kills rotary. RX-8, a featherweight RWD car with 230 HP, got 16/23 MPG. 16/23!!! That's so far off the mark that Mazda will have to improve the fuel economy by at least 50% to make it acceptable in this day and age. Yeah, that's gonna happen.
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Len View Post
Who cares about oil consumption, it's the GAS consumption that really kills rotary. RX-8, a featherweight RWD car with 230 HP, got 16/23 MPG. 16/23!!! That's so far off the mark that Mazda will have to improve the fuel economy by at least 50% to make it acceptable in this day and age. Yeah, that's gonna happen.
You know what else has 16/23 rating? An IS-F. With nearly twice the horsepower and a thousand pounds more weight.
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Old 09-30-2015, 05:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Len View Post
Who cares about oil consumption, it's the GAS consumption that really kills rotary. RX-8, a featherweight RWD car with 230 HP, got 16/23 MPG. 16/23!!! That's so far off the mark that Mazda will have to improve the fuel economy by at least 50% to make it acceptable in this day and age. Yeah, that's gonna happen.
I have an "easy" solution, add a hybrid electric motor system. In this day and age, most future sports car have to be headed towards electrification. A small lithium battery pack and a 150lbft electric motor would compliment a small firecracker rotary engine pretty nicely.
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