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Old 05-28-2020, 03:45 PM   #51
subydude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
pretty much.

I hate torquing head bolts. that last 100 ftlbs is scary haha
I know the feels. I did a set of L19's to 90 on the last engine and I was bracing the engine stand while torquing thinking about those poor aluminum threads. This will be my first use of 625's so I'm looking forward to more heart pounding moments waiting for the torque wrench to click
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Old 05-28-2020, 04:58 PM   #52
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I can answer this question for cylinder bore changes. I have seen the upper portion of the cylinder grow .001-.0015" from no torque plate to using a torque plate.

While that may not seem like much keep in mind that it's quite a bit in terms of:
1) PWC
and
2) ring gap. Keep in mind that a growth in diameter of the cylinder of .001 is going to result in a difference in .00314 in ring gap.

If you are being exacting in your tolerances then this is something to keep in mind.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:40 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by cboggess View Post
I can answer this question for cylinder bore changes. I have seen the upper portion of the cylinder grow .001-.0015" from no torque plate to using a torque plate.

While that may not seem like much keep in mind that it's quite a bit in terms of:
1) PWC
and
2) ring gap. Keep in mind that a growth in diameter of the cylinder of .001 is going to result in a difference in .00314 in ring gap.

If you are being exacting in your tolerances then this is something to keep in mind.
Interesting

so how do you gap the rings correctly?

Assuming you wanted a .0196 top ring gap, should you file your ring to .016 to accommodate the change in ring gap when it distorts?
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:41 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
Interesting

so how do you gap the rings correctly?

Assuming you wanted a .0196 top ring gap, should you file your ring to .016 to accommodate the change in ring gap when it distorts?
Torque plate to gap the rings. Sucks, but you know it's right.
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:57 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterabbitrexy View Post
How much did u see a difference on your personal ej20 with a bore gauge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterabbitrexy View Post
As for torque plates needed to get mains tolerance i think thats over kill....subaru never ask for it in the factory manual and many high end subaru builders dont use torque plates for the mains
Well if you're building a block, and already have the torque plates on for a bore and hone, if you have the space in your machine go right and ahead and hit the mains.
Also which 'high end' builders are you quoting here? Have a source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterabbitrexy View Post
...but each to there own techniques....i wouldnt bother....considering now I'm starting to understand there is 2mm aka 2.000mm oil film of oil pressure around the crankshaft journals and bearings.....not 0.010mm or 0.030mm of oil film gap...this is why subaru asks for plastigauge to get the mains and not bore gauge / torque plates.
Come again? The FSM is also written for a tech at a shop to rebuild an engine. FHI has a lot better equipment for when they're building them in mass quantities.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:25 PM   #56
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Yeah, I don't have torque plates so I'm just gonna send it
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:23 AM   #57
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I'm going to run a test on the main bearings next week when I start assembling. Pop the bearings in, bolt the case up, measure, torque the heads on, measure again. If no noticeable difference, then it won't matter, but if some difference then I'll set with the heads bolted on
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Old 05-29-2020, 12:30 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterabbitrexy View Post
<br />
<br />
How much did u see a difference on your personal ej20 with a bore gauge? <br />
As for torque plates needed to get mains tolerance i think thats over kill....subaru never ask for it in the factory manual and many high end subaru builders dont use torque plates for the mains...but each to there own techniques....i wouldnt bother....considering now I'm starting to understand there is 2mm aka 2.000mm oil film of oil pressure around the crankshaft journals and bearings.....not 0.010mm or 0.030mm of oil film gap...this is why subaru asks for plastigauge to get the mains and not bore gauge / torque plates.
Also keep in mind that the final say at Subaru is run by accountants. Basically, cheapest cost, and way to meet spec, with acceptable number of failures allowed. That means plastigauge instead of bore gauge because it's cheaper and faster for example.

Subaru builds an engine to 300 (ok - 305 if you want to be picky) at the crank, with the goal to last through the warranty period.

Good engine builders take what was designed, manufactured, and delivered all for the cheapest way possible by Subaru and extract WAY more power. To do this with ANY degree of reliability and longevity exacting detail is needed beyond what Subaru decided to do for the cheapest way to do it.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:24 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by cboggess View Post
Also keep in mind that the final say at Subaru is run by accountants. Basically, cheapest cost, and way to meet spec, with acceptable number of failures allowed. That means plastigauge instead of bore gauge because it's cheaper and faster for example.

Subaru builds an engine to 300 (ok - 305 if you want to be picky) at the crank, with the goal to last through the warranty period.

Good engine builders take what was designed, manufactured, and delivered all for the cheapest way possible by Subaru and extract WAY more power. To do this with ANY degree of reliability and longevity exacting detail is needed beyond what Subaru decided to do for the cheapest way to do it.
i doubt Subaru is using plastigauge when building engines....more like precision laser inferred measuring computers to get the mains where they want....thats why Subaru have bearing class numbers on the top of the cases and the workers know witch bearings to place inside once the computer has measured and stamped the code on top of the engine blocks.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:55 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Well if you're building a block, and already have the torque plates on for a bore and hone, if you have the space in your machine go right and ahead and hit the mains.
Also which 'high end' builders are you quoting here? Have a source?

u do make a very good point if you have your torque plates on why not measure the mains ? your already there, well said bro....but again if a lot of good engine builders and even subaru dont go the extra mile to do this i dont see why everyone Must do this to get there mains to spec.. Not saying its a waste of time but for those who dont want to pay Half a grand for Torque plates they might want to skip this if others didnt do torque plate measuring and they got away with it.

As for High end builders i know one guy off youtube from Germani has possibly the best methods of building and Best top CNC what not machines and knows his Ej's moters and even he dont do this....he even showed everyone one of his race motors after 3 or 4 seassons of abuse and main bearings looked like new.....No joke.....look him up : Subi Performance



Come again? The FSM is also written for a tech at a shop to rebuild an engine. FHI has a lot better equipment for when they're building them in mass quantities.
ok i'm having a hard time to explain this.....so when subaru is asking to get the main bearings down to spec = 0.010mm - 0.030mm what do u call this oil thickness or oil Film betweeen bearings and crankshaft ? the oil present when engine is operating ? also maybe go to my thread to talk about this in more depth so i dont go off topic and Hijack this thread, Its called : Help Please mainline Bearing Clearance
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:58 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by whiterabbitrexy View Post
ok i'm having a hard time to explain this.....so when subaru is asking to get the main bearings down to spec = 0.010mm - 0.030mm what do u call this oil thickness or oil Film betweeen bearings and crankshaft ? the oil present when engine is operating ? also maybe go to my thread to talk about this in more depth so i dont go off topic and Hijack this thread, Its called : Help Please mainline Bearing Clearance
Yes, it's a hydrodynamic bearing. You should do some basic research on them. It'll help you understand why you want everything as straight and square as possible. It'll also help you realize why you want to tightly control the sizing tolerances.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:06 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterabbitrexy View Post
i doubt Subaru is using plastigauge when building engines....more like precision laser inferred measuring computers to get the mains where they want....thats why Subaru have bearing class numbers on the top of the cases and the workers know witch bearings to place inside once the computer has measured and stamped the code on top of the engine blocks.
You are absolutely correct. I was referencing what was in the service manual and what a tech at a dealer would do in the case of a warranty job. I should have been more clear about that.
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Old 06-02-2020, 04:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by cboggess View Post
Also keep in mind that the final say at Subaru is run by accountants. Basically, cheapest cost, and way to meet spec, with acceptable number of failures allowed. That means plastigauge instead of bore gauge because it's cheaper and faster for example.

Subaru builds an engine to 300 (ok - 305 if you want to be picky) at the crank, with the goal to last through the warranty period.

Good engine builders take what was designed, manufactured, and delivered all for the cheapest way possible by Subaru and extract WAY more power. To do this with ANY degree of reliability and longevity exacting detail is needed beyond what Subaru decided to do for the cheapest way to do it.
This is hilarious, and spoken like someone who has never designed an internal combustion engine, or ANY vehicle sub-system for that matter. Regale us with more tales of the wide automotive world, oh wizened one...
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:01 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
This is hilarious, and spoken like someone who has never designed an internal combustion engine, or ANY vehicle sub-system for that matter. Regale us with more tales of the wide automotive world, oh wizened one...
Seriously dude?
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:00 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
Interesting

so how do you gap the rings correctly?

Assuming you wanted a .0196 top ring gap, should you file your ring to .016 to accommodate the change in ring gap when it distorts?
Torque plates for boring/honing, setting ring end gaps, and yes your mains will change...
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Old 06-03-2020, 01:46 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
This is hilarious, and spoken like someone who has never designed an internal combustion engine, or ANY vehicle sub-system for that matter. Regale us with more tales of the wide automotive world, oh wizened one...
No, he's pretty spot on. Penny-pinchers has some heavy say in the engineering of projects and cost savings projects.
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Old 06-03-2020, 04:15 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
No, he's pretty spot on. Penny-pinchers has some heavy say in the engineering of projects and cost savings projects.
No, he's pretty NOT spot on.

Sure, cost matters. Obviously. But I'm literally the guy who hosts these product design meetings. I write the single document that tells our engineers what features to include in a given product, be that a transmission, a mid-cycle update, a new emissions standard, anything. We don't even include accountants in our engineering meetings, they are locked in the basement for all intents and purposes. Projects have a budget, there aren't accountants peeking over our shoulders as we make decisions.

If you get right down to it, upper management are the ones pinching the pennies.

If you have any questions about how an auto manufacturer works, or why they do things a certain way, I can probably answer it.
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Old 06-03-2020, 04:36 PM   #68
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Its 2020 and theres still folks arguing about the necessity of using torques plates. Like it hasent been thoroughly documented in the past time and time again. Personally, I measure the difference at least once a week. already have the bore gauge setup. Sometimes its just funny to see the difference once I remove the torque plates. "Main tunnel as well..."

Clint/Micah I feel your pain...
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Old 06-03-2020, 04:58 PM   #69
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:59 PM   #70
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If you get right down to it, upper management are the ones pinching the pennies.

If you have any questions about how an auto manufacturer works, or why they do things a certain way, I can probably answer it.
I said pretty spot on and he was. I also never said it was accountants. Also having been an automotive engineer before going to the race industry, I would agree it's upper management that ultimately makes the call. In my experience it came with cost cutting to be competitive in market pricing one way or another.

When I was doing diesel emissions work however it was a good bit different. You have to make emissions to not be bent over paying for each engine you make. So you spend to get clean and then work backwards to add in cost savings...or again, so was my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
Its 2020 and theres still folks arguing about ...
A lot of stuff

Ok, not now funny time is over before this gets political or something.

Thanks for sharing your measurements Timo!
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Old 06-05-2020, 04:00 PM   #71
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Alright, sounds like you've been there. The diesel HD market is way different from the passenger car market and while I agree with you to a point.

People are quick to paint manufacturers as conniving, unscrupulous bands of thieves, when in reality everyone wants to put out a quality product, but run into any number of hurdles, regulations, budget constraints and uncontrollable market forces.

Nobody sets out to design a lemon is all I'm saying.
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