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Old 06-28-2019, 09:08 PM   #226
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The flagship of a particular model help sells the lower models. The CTR helps sells the SI, and so on down. The biggest marketing point of these higher end models is to generate interest and excitement for the entire model line and brand. The BRZ sales numbers don't even come close to that when you look at the sales numbers of the Civic, Focus, Golf, Impreza and so on. They pretty much dropped the ball and continue to fumble, by forcing a formula that has very limited appeal. No one is asking them to make the BRZ a Ferrari, just include a turbo'ed engine options that not uncommon in the Subaru line.
The BRZ easily outsold the Golf R this year FYI. Not sure about the CTR but I imagine it would be close. Also, the WRX/STI handily outsell the GTI/R. Subaru is doing just fine with the halo cars. There is really no other competition as the RS and EVO are dead.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:20 PM   #227
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The BRZ easily outsold the Golf R this year FYI. Not sure about the CTR but I imagine it would be close. Also, the WRX/STI handily outsell the GTI/R. Subaru is doing just fine with the halo cars. There is really no other competition as the RS and EVO are dead.
Lol you're comparing apples to oranges. The Brz did not out sell the base Golf, Civic, etc. The brz is a base model. Like Impreza, is base for wrx, and the sti is the flagship
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:59 PM   #228
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No one is asking them to make the BRZ a Ferrari, just include a turbo'ed engine options that not uncommon in the Subaru line.
You say that, but there are people here who will still throw an absolute ****fit when they release a turbo model at 220-240hp... because it's not 300hp.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:11 PM   #229
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Yes, I would like a 2 seater car (back seats are barely seats) designed for fun with stiff suspension but I also need 30+ mpg, said no one buy a brz.

Come on man, letís be realistic on whoís buying these cars. Itís not people trying to milk every mile per gallon they can. If it can average 24mpg, itís probably fine for nearly all the buyers of that car. Add forced induction to the car, give it 24mpg and I bet more people flock to the car.

Milk it, no; but, mindful of it when they are just piddling around, running 91+, with gas prices, and it's their only car......


It may not be a "goal" when purchasing the car; but, I'd bet they enjoy that benefit.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:12 PM   #230
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You say that, but there are people here who will still throw an absolute ****fit when they release a turbo model at 220-240hp... because it's not 300hp.
Absolutely. But theyíd sell 10x and destroy anyone near the segment.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:17 PM   #231
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You say that, but there are people here who will still throw an absolute ****fit when they release a turbo model at 220-240hp... because it's not 300hp.
That's one aspect I wouldn't worry much about, because the most important thing is to have the factory foundation of a turbo'ed engine to build off of. Everything else the aftermarket can handle. I wouldn't even design a new motor for it, but leverage either the WRX or STI engine instead. There's already a ton of development done of those and no reason to open a new can of unknown worms.
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Old 06-29-2019, 04:36 AM   #232
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Tell you what, if you can produce a BOM for both the base and V8 chassis mustangs with part numbers showing they share all those parts mentioned previously, I'll eat crow. Until then, please stop hypothesizing about the inner workings of an industry you don't work in.
Eat crow

https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/ch...sion-6521425-1

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Better yet, it's easier to list parts that AREN'T the same. I'll give you a hint. Begins with the word "Shelby" in the name, or "performance pack"

Even then, 99% of the parts I've looked at under chassis have all been shared. Springs, shocks, etc. You can easily browse that catalog. Most of the parts are even shared for the 2019 model between GT, turbo 4, and v6 models from 2014, so they've been doing this the entire life of the car.

As for "I doubt they started with a shelby and went backwards because that would be crazy expensive" I completely 100% agree... IF that stuff even needed to be different. Sorry, ford seems to treat most of their parts as set in stone and then they tune easily changeable things when needed (i.e. all the stuff tuners would touch that can just be swapped with a wrench).

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Old 06-29-2019, 08:48 AM   #233
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So we're still comparing Ford to Subaru/Toyota? Or what?
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:33 AM   #234
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So we're still comparing Ford to Subaru/Toyota? Or what?
I think the point that's being made is, there isn't a different chassis for each engine option, but one standard chassis. Therefore there wouldn't be a different BRZ chassis for a turbo engine versus the current NA.
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Old 06-29-2019, 02:55 PM   #235
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I think the point that's being made is, there isn't a different chassis for each engine option, but one standard chassis. Therefore there wouldn't be a different BRZ chassis for a turbo engine versus the current NA.
Ah. Thanks. I thought initially we were discussing that having to update the Twins chassis to support turbocharging was BS, because Ford uses one chassis for two variants. And I was saying that the one chassis was built to support the more powerful variant from the beginning. Whereas the Twins were never built with more power in mind.

Plus I've always felt that comparing American muscle to Japanese sports coupes was apples to oranges. Do any Japanese manufacturers create two variants for one sports coupe chassis, one NA and the other FI? Have they ever? Even the non-sports coupe WRX/STI are reinforced Impreza chassis.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:54 PM   #236
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Even the non-sports coupe WRX/STI are reinforced Impreza chassis.
But the wrx and sti chassis are nearly identical as well, so I'd say that still counts. 2 variants, 1 with more power, nearly identical.

S2000 and CR count as well. Honda civic base and SI, etc. Tires, wheels, brakes, shocks, springs are not a lot to ask for as far as "supporting mods." That stuff is easy to swap.

I don't think the twins would even need all of that. I bet the chassis would be just fine, but even if they did need it, they could provide it for the same price increase between a wrx and an sti, since they already proved they can offer a twin for the same cost as the wrx. Again, either it's viable and they have some way of making a vastly different product for the same price, and they could do it for all the performance upgrades that are "needed," or the base model is a halo car that shouldn't exist and we should all be groveling that they were able to pull of a miracle while pulling one over the bean-counters' heads.
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Old 06-29-2019, 04:13 PM   #237
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Exactly! That's why the WRX is a lesser vehicle to me, because the Impreza chassis was reinforced to support the STI, then the STI was downgraded to the WRX. Which makes sense because the STI came first, then North America got the WRX as an STI Lite. Japan didn't even get just a WRX until the VA chassis, and it's only a CVT.

Overall I'm against FI for the Twins. NA all the way or it's just not appealing. Just add more torque and remove the torque dip. FA22DI or FA24DI could do the trick. I think the FA20 is strung out already.
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Old 06-29-2019, 04:49 PM   #238
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Exactly! That's why the WRX is a lesser vehicle to me, because the Impreza chassis was reinforced to support the STI, then the STI was downgraded to the WRX. Which makes sense because the STI came first, then North America got the WRX as an STI Lite. Japan didn't even get just a WRX until the VA chassis, and it's only a CVT.

Overall I'm against FI for the Twins. NA all the way or it's just not appealing. Just add more torque and remove the torque dip. FA22DI or FA24DI could do the trick. I think the FA20 is strung out already.
You're in the small minority. The rest thinks otherwise.
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Old 06-29-2019, 05:25 PM   #239
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But the wrx and sti chassis are nearly identical as well, so I'd say that still counts. 2 variants, 1 with more power, nearly identical.

S2000 and CR count as well. Honda civic base and SI, etc. Tires, wheels, brakes, shocks, springs are not a lot to ask for as far as "supporting mods." That stuff is easy to swap.

I don't think the twins would even need all of that. I bet the chassis would be just fine, but even if they did need it, they could provide it for the same price increase between a wrx and an sti, since they already proved they can offer a twin for the same cost as the wrx. Again, either it's viable and they have some way of making a vastly different product for the same price, and they could do it for all the performance upgrades that are "needed," or the base model is a halo car that shouldn't exist and we should all be groveling that they were able to pull of a miracle while pulling one over the bean-counters' heads.

And keep in mind they were shooting for a low CoG for that handling. And at the time, they achieved the 2nd lowest CoG. Adding a Subaru turbo motor would have upset that. NOW, 8/9/10 years later, they have surely learned some new stuff and the question would be CAN they add a turbo(which I believe they said they wouldn't) and achieve a similar CoG?

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You're in the small minority. The rest thinks otherwise.
Where is your data to back up this claim? I just see it as those wanting more are the more vocal. The rest are just fine and driving around happy. The only data I can give is the sales numbers. Sure, they are "low"; but, it's STILL selling after 7 model years. SOMEONE seems to be fine with what it offers.
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Old 06-29-2019, 05:36 PM   #240
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And keep in mind they were shooting for a low CoG for that handling. And at the time, they achieved the 2nd lowest CoG. Adding a Subaru turbo motor would have upset that. NOW, 8/9/10 years later, they have surely learned some new stuff and the question would be CAN they add a turbo(which I believe they said they wouldn't) and achieve a similar CoG?
Yes yes, because a CoG of 18" vs a CoG of 20" makes so much difference. A F/R distribution of 50/50 vs 60/40 is the end of the world.

I'd be willing to take the hit in those departments for being able to pass a sierra without having to worry about the emasculated dad driving giving me a run for my money. Again, just because they have design goals and they refuse to depart from them doesn't mean consumers wouldn't be ecstatic if they did. It doesn't mean the offering wouldn't be a resounding success. Basically... fork the engineers and their desires. Give the people what they want.
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Old 06-29-2019, 05:40 PM   #241
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You're in the small minority. The rest thinks otherwise.
I've observed for a long time that most guys who desire FI over NA are the same bro dudes who need power to compensate for their lack of driving ability. They want power at the flip of a switch that carries them all the way to 100+ mph. Once they get their kick they move on to the next vehicle. It's never enough power.

There are many on this forum who have expressed interest in an NA engine with smooth, usable power over FI that sacrifices either low-end or high-end power, depending on how the turbo works, or the availability of a supercharger.
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Old 06-29-2019, 05:57 PM   #242
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Power at the flip of a switch sounds more like NA than FI to me. People that can't keep a car in boost properly usually lose out on the benefit of turbo'd motors.

My personal preference is the F1 way of doing things: NA with no low end with revs to the stratosphere and all the power shoved to the last 1/3 of the band; right where all the action happens when you're wringing it out.

Second to that, I'll take a turbo because tuning and making more than stock is easier on a turbo than NA.
As soon as electric becomes more prevalent and I can get a mustang GT-E or similar for mustang GT money, I'm jumping ship, though. Motors > engines.

Last thing I want is an anemic NA motor that needs serious modification to get it where I want, which is apparently all the twins will ever offer. No one wants to play with the americans, and it's a shame. I really hate american car companies
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Old 06-29-2019, 06:16 PM   #243
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And keep in mind they were shooting for a low CoG for that handling. And at the time, they achieved the 2nd lowest CoG. Adding a Subaru turbo motor would have upset that. NOW, 8/9/10 years later, they have surely learned some new stuff and the question would be CAN they add a turbo(which I believe they said they wouldn't) and achieve a similar CoG?



Where is your data to back up this claim? I just see it as those wanting more are the more vocal. The rest are just fine and driving around happy. The only data I can give is the sales numbers. Sure, they are "low"; but, it's STILL selling after 7 model years. SOMEONE seems to be fine with what it offers.
Dude, give it up. That sales numbers speaks for itself and stop giving the BS they planned for it to suck and that why it's the poorest seller in the entire Subaru line up. Car companies are in business to sell cars

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I've observed for a long time that most guys who desire FI over NA are the same bro dudes who need power to compensate for their lack of driving ability. They want power at the flip of a switch that carries them all the way to 100+ mph. Once they get their kick they move on to the next vehicle. It's never enough power.

There are many on this forum who have expressed interest in an NA engine with smooth, usable power over FI that sacrifices either low-end or high-end power, depending on how the turbo works, or the availability of a supercharger.
Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night, but it's crap.
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:02 PM   #244
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Dude, give it up. That sales numbers speaks for itself and stop giving the BS they planned for it to suck and that why it's the poorest seller in the entire Subaru line up. Car companies are in business to sell cars

And they are selling cars. Subaru makes money on every BRZ, FR-S, 86 that was/is made. THAT is their goal. They made money on every Camry that came out of SIA. They are in the business to make money. Toyota came to them with an offer to make more than what they were before that idea. YOU think the sales suck because it's not thousands per month. You're not the gauge of what sucks for them. They are.


Yeah. The sales are lower than in the beginning. But, heck, according to you sales sucked from day one. Never crossing a 1000 units in a month. Always has been the lowest seller. It was nver meant to be anything more. It's 7 years old. The next one is not ready. So, they could drop it entirely until the next one comes, or keep making it for that 200 or so per month that still want one and make more money than not having it. Then you don't have folks like Ford RS prospects that missed out because they stopped offering it.
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:53 PM   #245
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And they are selling cars. Subaru makes money on every BRZ, FR-S, 86 that was/is made. THAT is their goal. They made money on every Camry that came out of SIA. They are in the business to make money. Toyota came to them with an offer to make more than what they were before that idea. YOU think the sales suck because it's not thousands per month. You're not the gauge of what sucks for them. They are.


Yeah. The sales are lower than in the beginning. But, heck, according to you sales sucked from day one. Never crossing a 1000 units in a month. Always has been the lowest seller. It was nver meant to be anything more. It's 7 years old. The next one is not ready. So, they could drop it entirely until the next one comes, or keep making it for that 200 or so per month that still want one and make more money than not having it. Then you don't have folks like Ford RS prospects that missed out because they stopped offering it.
No, the sales numbers does suck on it. It was a loser from day one and the sad part is, the designers knew it was going to have crappy sales (low demand) with that specific engine formula they are force feeding. With that being said, there is always high demand for strong front engine RWD cars, just look at the combined sales figures of all Mustang, Camaro, Dodge, BMW, Supra, RX7, etc... People love it and it's a different driving experience than a AWD vehicle.

Also, selling 200 a month is not making money for a car company that makes money on volume. It's peanuts and it's questionable if it's even worth the trouble to keep around. GM, Ford, Dodge and other car companies have killed off model lines with greater sales numbers than the twins.
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Old 06-30-2019, 08:54 AM   #246
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Power at the flip of a switch sounds more like NA than FI to me. People that can't keep a car in boost properly usually lose out on the benefit of turbo'd motors.

My personal preference is the F1 way of doing things: NA with no low end with revs to the stratosphere and all the power shoved to the last 1/3 of the band; right where all the action happens when you're wringing it out.

Second to that, I'll take a turbo because tuning and making more than stock is easier on a turbo than NA.
As soon as electric becomes more prevalent and I can get a mustang GT-E or similar for mustang GT money, I'm jumping ship, though. Motors > engines.

Last thing I want is an anemic NA motor that needs serious modification to get it where I want, which is apparently all the twins will ever offer. No one wants to play with the americans, and it's a shame. I really hate american car companies
100% electric sporty power would be my thing. Just something different.

Yes, lots of dudes can't keep boost properly.

Also, lots of people complained about having to constantly wring out the FA20, but I didn't kind doing that. I enjoyed shifting.
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Dude, give it up. That sales numbers speaks for itself and stop giving the BS they planned for it to suck and that why it's the poorest seller in the entire Subaru line up. Car companies are in business to sell cars



Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night, but it's crap.
Truth hurts. Toyota has sold as many as they planned to sell. Subaru has sold as many as they planned to sell.
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:16 PM   #247
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No, the sales numbers does suck on it. It was a loser from day one and the sad part is, the designers knew it was going to have crappy sales (low demand) with that specific engine formula they are force feeding. With that being said, there is always high demand for strong front engine RWD cars, just look at the combined sales figures of all Mustang, Camaro, Dodge, BMW, Supra, RX7, etc... People love it and it's a different driving experience than a AWD vehicle.

Also, selling 200 a month is not making money for a car company that makes money on volume. It's peanuts and it's questionable if it's even worth the trouble to keep around. GM, Ford, Dodge and other car companies have killed off model lines with greater sales numbers than the twins.





And when did you start this belief that Subaru was a "volume" dealer? Have you never paid attention to their yearly sales? Before this amazing streak they have(back in the "glory" days of Subaru turbo cars), there were SEVERAL manufacturers that were selling more of ONE model than Subaru sold of cars. Might as well pack in it Subaru. You suck....

Heck, trucks still sell more, just in the U.S., than Subaru sells globally.


Yes. Subaru knew from the beginning that sales numbers were going to be "low" because that was their target. Still funny you can't grasp this. Stop thinking about it as a Subaru thing and more of a Subaru/Toyota thing. I'm guessing as a total number, they sell more than the Miata. WHICH was what their initial target was. It was billed as the "Miata fighter". As much as you hate it and can't seem to admit, it was a success. Spawning a 2nd generation. Something else you seem to not remember about Subaru. Several models they tried out and gave up on in less model years.

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Old 06-30-2019, 01:42 PM   #248
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And when did you start this belief that Subaru was a "volume" dealer? Have you never paid attention to their yearly sales? Before this amazing streak they have(back in the "glory" days of Subaru turbo cars), there were SEVERAL manufacturers that were selling more of ONE model than Subaru sold of cars. Might as well pack in it Subaru. You suck....

Heck, trucks still sell more, just in the U.S., than Subaru sells globally.


Yes. Subaru knew from the beginning that sales numbers were going to be "low" because that was their target. Still funny you can't grasp this. Stop thinking about it as a Subaru thing and more of a Subaru/Toyota thing. I'm guessing as a total number, they sell more than the Miata. WHICH was what their initial target was. It was billed as the "Miata fighter". As much as you hate it and can't seem to admit, it was a success. Spawning a 2nd generation. Something else you seem to not remember about Subaru. Several models they tried out and gave up on in less model years.
Not that I disagree with a lot of what you said but one thing I do disagree with is subaru is a volume dealer. Maybe it wasnít in the past but itís definitrly a volume dealer. Lastly, comparing truck sales to Subaru isnít fair. Trucks outsell a lot of manufacturers combined global sales.
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Old 06-30-2019, 03:33 PM   #249
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Exactly! That's why the WRX is a lesser vehicle to me, because the Impreza chassis was reinforced to support the STI, then the STI was downgraded to the WRX. Which makes sense because the STI came first, then North America got the WRX as an STI Lite. Japan didn't even get just a WRX until the VA chassis, and it's only a CVT.
The WRX came out in 1992 and the STI came out in 1994, and the WRX was absolutely sold in Japan since it's inception.

The STI didn't come first in the US either. The 2002 model year WRX came out in 2001, and the STI didn't come out in the US until the 2004MY.
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Old 06-30-2019, 04:25 PM   #250
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100% electric sporty power would be my thing. Just something different.

Yes, lots of dudes can't keep boost properly.

Also, lots of people complained about having to constantly wring out the FA20, but I didn't kind doing that. I enjoyed shifting. Truth hurts. Toyota has sold as many as they planned to sell. Subaru has sold as many as they planned to sell.
LOL the truth hurts for you It cracks me up that logic evades you and Justy. There's a reason why exotic and performance cars have HP's, it's fun and people love it (not you or Justy). The twins don't fall into this category, but it could with the right engine option.

As for sales numbers, Justy give it up, because if you truly believe 200 cars a month for a volume car company like Subaru and Toyota is good. You're smoking some severely brain damaging stuff.

Last edited by Fierysun; 06-30-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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