Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday July 14, 2020
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo)

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2020, 10:05 PM   #1
TuFnGood4U
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 348705
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lackawanna, NY
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Dark Gray

Default IAG vs Killer B windage tray

I am going to be changing the oil pick up tube on my vehicle and I see there are a couple options for a replacement windage tray also. I am between the iag and killer b. I know they are both very reputable companies just wondering if anyone has had any negative issues with either. The iag has some rubber (Viton) flappers my concern is one coming out and clogging pickup. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
TuFnGood4U is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 04-12-2020, 11:09 PM   #2
murrdogg24
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 50586
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs
Vehicle:
2020 STI
Crystal White Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuFnGood4U View Post
I am going to be changing the oil pick up tube on my vehicle and I see there are a couple options for a replacement windage tray also. I am between the iag and killer b. I know they are both very reputable companies just wondering if anyone has had any negative issues with either. The iag has some rubber (Viton) flappers my concern is one coming out and clogging pickup. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.
killerb it is then..
murrdogg24 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 08:11 AM   #3
Jefe159
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 486182
Join Date: May 2018
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati
Vehicle:
2011 STI
Gray

Default

I think the IAG tray is pretty new. Killer B has been around for a long time and has a great reputation.
Jefe159 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 10:05 AM   #4
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

We're here to answer any questions you may have

I can say from our testing many years ago... there is a reason why we don't use valves or elaborate baffles. A lot of this data was from a 3 Subaru team that ran 24hr endurance events on the Nürburgring logging sustained +1.6Gs around the carousel where they would have to 'let-off' to prevent oil pressure drops.

Some history on the valves that few know... They were developed by BMW for the M8. In that sump (that they were designed for) they were used on vertical baffle surfaces to keep oil at the sump pickup. The flappers never hung open or required replacement in this orientation. They only opened when loaded from one direction (are you reading between the lines here?). Prodrive was contracted by Subaru to support their WRC Rally efforts back in the 90s. They had issues with oil control on some of the WRC Northeaster European stages that contained LOTS for jumps; many in a row on some stages. So Prodrive modified an OEM pan and made a 'baffle plate' adding horizontal baffles with the BMW flapper valves installed. Under 0 Gs (as in going over a jump) the valves closed keeping oil in the sump. It also reduced aeration as far less oil sloshed back into the crankshaft. These valves were replaced as part of regular teardown and rebuilds (3-5 stages typically). Eventually (I think it was ~2011) Subaru and Prodrive ended their relationship. Cosworth picked up some of the track support, and in the process started marketing some of the racing products to more mainstream markets. This is where it gets messy, as you see other companies start to carry the same or similar products. Now RCM's has baffles that look like the Cosworth unit (originally Prodrive), and other companies have their own spin-off products.
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 12:20 PM   #5
firebane
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 508031
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Calgary, AB, CAN
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
We're here to answer any questions you may have

I can say from our testing many years ago... there is a reason why we don't use valves or elaborate baffles. A lot of this data was from a 3 Subaru team that ran 24hr endurance events on the Nürburgring logging sustained +1.6Gs around the carousel where they would have to 'let-off' to prevent oil pressure drops.

Some history on the valves that few know... They were developed by BMW for the M8. In that sump (that they were designed for) they were used on vertical baffle surfaces to keep oil at the sump pickup. The flappers never hung open or required replacement in this orientation. They only opened when loaded from one direction (are you reading between the lines here?). Prodrive was contracted by Subaru to support their WRC Rally efforts back in the 90s. They had issues with oil control on some of the WRC Northeaster European stages that contained LOTS for jumps; many in a row on some stages. So Prodrive modified an OEM pan and made a 'baffle plate' adding horizontal baffles with the BMW flapper valves installed. Under 0 Gs (as in going over a jump) the valves closed keeping oil in the sump. It also reduced aeration as far less oil sloshed back into the crankshaft. These valves were replaced as part of regular teardown and rebuilds (3-5 stages typically). Eventually (I think it was ~2011) Subaru and Prodrive ended their relationship. Cosworth picked up some of the track support, and in the process started marketing some of the racing products to more mainstream markets. This is where it gets messy, as you see other companies start to carry the same or similar products. Now RCM's has baffles that look like the Cosworth unit (originally Prodrive), and other companies have their own spin-off products.
I think the key is a lot of stuff comes from the racing world and like you said these engines get tore down quite often.

When you take that out of the scenario and your just driving typical street cars just do what you need to ensure the health and longevity.

Don't think most of us are taking whoops on a daily basis and getting some sick air
firebane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2020, 12:34 PM   #6
Waddlz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Brighton, CO
Vehicle:
2012 STi
SWP

Default

I went with Killer-B oil pickup, pan and wind-age tray and I can say the fit and finish has been spectacular. Their oil pan is so sexy, its almost sad nobody is going to see it haha.

this is on my 2012 STi that is semi track/weekend road car making 460/460 on a rotated EFR 7163. I seen RCM and IAG have their own, but I was also concerned with the viton flaps. RCM has been very popular across the pond, but I like to support American businesses and Killer-B has answered all of my stupid questions about various EJ issues over the years with tact and professionalism, so I really appreciate them.
Waddlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 01:24 AM   #7
wrx43v3r
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 331119
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

I'm aware of one key difference between KillerB and IAG. IAG won't get into this thread and spread there propaganda, and tell you why their product is better. KillerB will do just that. Search this forum and see how many times they've done it, and the squabbles they've had with another fabricator/vendor.
wrx43v3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 09:52 AM   #8
JarHarms
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 138994
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DeKalb-ish, IL
Vehicle:
2006 WRX, 6MT, 5x114
TMIC, FP blue, ELH

Default

Never felt that those rubber door baffles would provide a long service life. That was way back where there were only 1 or maybe 2 sources for the rubber door type. Most users are not doing frequent engine tear downs. I take service life into consideration as the solid part is a the conservative choice. Plus it has improvement over the OEM baffle. If one "needs" more oil sump control than these provide then they are serious users and likely looking into dry sump territiry.

"Propaganda" or not, the logic holds up. Not directing this at one person but more so a general thought. ALL of these companies have a motivation to sell parts. That is a basic function of a product company, followed up by marketing said products. And if you think that other company does not operate in similar manners...then good luck to you. I use parts from both companies based on their functionality.
JarHarms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 02:37 PM   #9
T-37
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 175624
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Wichita, KS
Vehicle:
0304 WRX WRX
SY WRB

Default

I've been using the Killer B tray and pickup (with a 2.5L oil pan) since 2013. Stock longblock EJ205, 280ish whp, it's been autoxed every summer since and sees the limiter frequently. The engine is still happy.
T-37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 03:22 PM   #10
fengrr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169160
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Beaverton
Vehicle:
08 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
We're here to answer any questions you may have
Thanks for the info. I am planning on purchasing the killer B pickup and baffle soon.

I was thinking of waiting to do the oil pan at the later point, perhaps at the same time as an aftermarket oil cooler. Right now the car isn't seeing track use but I plan on autocrossing the car at least.
fengrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2020, 06:22 PM   #11
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-37 View Post
I've been using the Killer B tray and pickup (with a 2.5L oil pan) since 2013. Stock longblock EJ205, 280ish whp, it's been autoxed every summer since and sees the limiter frequently. The engine is still happy.
Thanks for using our products!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fengrr View Post
Thanks for the info. I am planning on purchasing the killer B pickup and baffle soon.

I was thinking of waiting to do the oil pan at the later point, perhaps at the same time as an aftermarket oil cooler. Right now the car isn't seeing track use but I plan on autocrossing the car at least.
Of course, that's why we're here. If you have any questions in the mean time, please don't hesitate to reach out to us.

With your application, I would hold off on an oil cooler. You'll loose some temperature with our pan alone. One of our shop cars at 760whp I used to auto-x regularly and never say temps near high enough to need an oil cooler. If anything, I'd spend extra time idling to make sure oil got up to temp. I do recommend an oil temp gauge as an important feedback tool for knowing when oil at ideal operating temperature. More often than not, oiling related issues are due to high load at low oil temp; takes ~2X as long to get oil up to temp compared to coolant.
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2020, 05:54 PM   #12
JSR84
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 469585
Join Date: Jun 2017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Thanks for using our products!



Of course, that's why we're here. If you have any questions in the mean time, please don't hesitate to reach out to us.

With your application, I would hold off on an oil cooler. You'll loose some temperature with our pan alone. One of our shop cars at 760whp I used to auto-x regularly and never say temps near high enough to need an oil cooler. If anything, I'd spend extra time idling to make sure oil got up to temp. I do recommend an oil temp gauge as an important feedback tool for knowing when oil at ideal operating temperature. More often than not, oiling related issues are due to high load at low oil temp; takes ~2X as long to get oil up to temp compared to coolant.
I need to add an Oil temp sensor... I tend to watch my idle oil pressure to judge when the temperature is in the operating range. Not ideal, I know.

Regardless, another happy KillerB tray and pickup customer here.
JSR84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2020, 07:33 PM   #13
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR84 View Post
I need to add an Oil temp sensor... I tend to watch my idle oil pressure to judge when the temperature is in the operating range. Not ideal, I know.
It's not as accurate, but generally (assuming normal-ish build specs) your oil is at temperature when idle pressure is in the 20-30psi range?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR84 View Post
Regardless, another happy KillerB tray and pickup customer here.
Thank you sir!
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2020, 02:02 AM   #14
JSR84
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 469585
Join Date: Jun 2017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
It's not as accurate, but generally (assuming normal-ish build specs) your oil is at temperature when idle pressure is in the 20-30psi range?



Thank you sir!
Yeah 22ish psi at idle (10 40), it's an IAG build, I'm told the mains are a bit big. I pay good attention to my oil pressure so I can generally tell when it's cold warm or hot. Or even when AVCS has yet to activate after a reflash. But still, I should get a temperature sensor.

Last edited by JSR84; 04-17-2020 at 02:32 PM.
JSR84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2020, 01:29 PM   #15
Waddlz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Brighton, CO
Vehicle:
2012 STi
SWP

Default

my oil pressure gauge is not accurate at all.

I will see 13-15 psi at the front galley, and 60 psi above 3000 RPMs.

I hooked up a mechanical and got 30 psi idle, and 75 psi above 2500 RPMs

11mm oil pump, 15w-50 Mobil 1 2012 STi with built motor(Unknown clearances, I put it together myself without measuring anything)
Waddlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2020, 02:15 PM   #16
spoolinsti05
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 108051
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
2005 TickingTimeBomb
Jr tuned TT Sleeved

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddlz View Post
my oil pressure gauge is not accurate at all.

I will see 13-15 psi at the front galley, and 60 psi above 3000 RPMs.

I hooked up a mechanical and got 30 psi idle, and 75 psi above 2500 RPMs

11mm oil pump, 15w-50 Mobil 1 2012 STi with built motor(Unknown clearances, I put it together myself without measuring anything)
What gauge you have? With the electric gauges it's common for sensors to malfunction and wires to have a bad connection. But a mechanical gauge can fail also.
spoolinsti05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2020, 02:29 PM   #17
Waddlz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 395275
Join Date: Jul 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Brighton, CO
Vehicle:
2012 STi
SWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoolinsti05 View Post
What gauge you have? With the electric gauges it's common for sensors to malfunction and wires to have a bad connection. But a mechanical gauge can fail also.
Revel VLS.

I originally had a Defi but the sensor crapped out after 3 years and the sensor itself is $160 from Defi, so i wanted to try the Revel since it has a digital output.

My old Defi read 20 psi idle from the rear galley, 70 psi above 3000 RPMs. this is all warm oil pressure obviously.

I swapped the Revel to the front per Killer-B recommendation, but I'm likely just going to go back to my Defi since it actually read sort of close to what the mechanical does.
Waddlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 01:20 AM   #18
TuFnGood4U
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 348705
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lackawanna, NY
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Dark Gray

Default

Went with the IAG pickup and Killer B tray. Spoke with my tuner and he advised away from the pickup as he has seen defects that would have caused engine failure.

Side note; make your own thread about your questions don’t jack others threads.
TuFnGood4U is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 03:36 AM   #19
fengrr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169160
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Beaverton
Vehicle:
08 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuFnGood4U View Post
Went with the IAG pickup and Killer B tray. Spoke with my tuner and he advised away from the pickup as he has seen defects that would have caused engine failure...
What defects exactly?
fengrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 03:48 AM   #20
TuFnGood4U
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 348705
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lackawanna, NY
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
Dark Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fengrr View Post
What defects exactly?


He didn’t give a specific but he has built a good amount of engines and is known nationwide and I trust his advise.
TuFnGood4U is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 03:50 AM   #21
fengrr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169160
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Beaverton
Vehicle:
08 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuFnGood4U View Post
He didn’t give a specific but he has built a good amount of engines and is known nationwide and I trust his advise.
Could you find out? Would be helpful if your tuner shared why. Also, who is your tuner?
fengrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 12:29 PM   #22
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fengrr View Post
What defects exactly?
I'd like to know as well. We've sell to 400+ shops worldwide, many of them build engines exclusively with our pickup because of the robust design, reliability, and warranty. We've been making EJ pickups for over 10+ years and have literally not had a single fit or function issue. If a builder has an issue with our product I'd like the opportunity to hear that feedback.
KillerBMotorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 04:00 PM   #23
vibrantred94gt
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 513886
Join Date: Apr 2020
Default

Killer b for me.
vibrantred94gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 05:30 PM   #24
igoiks
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 326692
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cda, id
Vehicle:
2012 sti

Default

Had killer b set up for 5+ years . Same pick up on 3rd motor just clean and reuse amazing product! So as the pan clean and reuse. Only this I would love for killer b to do is to go away will silicone and use o ring around the pan for that would be amazing!
igoiks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2020, 05:40 PM   #25
2slofouru
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 90539
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: SWLA
Vehicle:
My BOV goes
COVFEFE!

Default

KillerB cast pan, windage tray, and pickup
2slofouru is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2020 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.