6 speed transmission axle seal retainer/ sundial leak

danger1138 · 08-14-2024, 07:21 AM

Hey all. currently running a JDM forester 6 speed transmission on my 06 forester xt. Recently went to get a driver side front axle along with that sides axle seal replaced at a small mom and pop shop. This transmission uses the older sti 'female' axles. transmission oil seems to be leaking now.

Yes, the correct side axle seal was used for the job.

I noticed in order to replace the axle seal, they removed the sundial. Ive read that these sundials are preloaded and cant just be screwed back in place like you would any screw w/ threads on it. They must/should be screwed back exactly the way it was installed, counting the # of revolutions originally to prevent any type of leak.

With all my trust lost in this shop, i plan to tackle this job myself. How can i go about 'resetting', so to say, the sundial, back to its normal place? and yes once in there i will replace the sealing o-ring on the sundial, most likely new axle seal as well.

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

arse_sidewards · 08-14-2024, 08:03 AM

The sundial preloads the carrier bearing. The position is about preload, not leaking.

Elbert Bass · 08-14-2024, 08:21 AM

Most common practice is to index the dial/case with a small punch mark then count the number of turns it takes to remove.
Hopefully that is how the shop did it...
The only other option is get the FSM and some special tools.
Odds are they did not replace the carrier (sundial) O-ring and that is where it is leaking. The big deal is to be sure everything is super clean - those fine threads are easily stripped. I once watched a Subaru tech strip a carrier, then strip a case with the new carrier.

danger1138 · 08-14-2024, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

The sundial preloads the carrier bearing. The position is about preload, not leaking.

thank you, but regardless of my bad terminology, how do i go about finding a solution to my problem?

danger1138 · 08-14-2024, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elbert Bass

Most common practice is to index the dial/case with a small punch mark then count the number of turns it takes to remove.
Hopefully that is how the shop did it...
The only other option is get the FSM and some special tools.
Odds are they did not replace the carrier (sundial) O-ring and that is where it is leaking. The big deal is to be sure everything is super clean - those fine threads are easily stripped. I once watched a Subaru tech strip a carrier, then strip a case with the new carrier.

so you advise, marking the dial, counting turns to remove, replace o-ring, & re-install?

arse_sidewards · 08-14-2024, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danger1138

so you advise, marking the dial, counting turns to remove, replace o-ring, & re-install?

Yeah that should do it. Throw a dab of pipe thread sealant on the threads for good measure if you want (more important with the style that has the O-ring below the threads since those tend to get crusty and corrode)

The fancy socket is $50 if you want to use it but a punch works fine if you're careful.

danger1138 · 08-14-2024, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

Yeah that should do it. Throw a dab of pipe thread sealant on the threads for good measure if you want (more important with the style that has the O-ring below the threads since those tend to get crusty and corrode)

The fancy socket is $50 if you want to use it but a punch works fine if you're careful.

thanks bro. Ive watched a few videos on this, they used some type of oil filter socket, the has 3-4 claws. That'll cling on to the knubs of the dial.

arse_sidewards · 08-14-2024, 01:10 PM

https://www.company23.com/products/suspension

Charlie-III · 08-14-2024, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danger1138

so you advise, marking the dial, counting turns to remove, replace o-ring, & re-install?

That gets you back to a possibly incorrect bearing preload. The shop should have marked the sundial BEFORE removing it when doing the seal. If they didn't no clue on where you are now.
@Elbert Bass referenced the proper fix now which is to measure backlash to set the sundial. Not a trivial task.

Doing anything else is guessing on preload, thus maybe an issue down the road.

I would start by looking for a reference mark the shop may have made. Or, ask if they did so and counted turns. A new seal or O-ring won't make a difference in bearing preload (which is the purpose of the sundial)

danger1138 · 08-15-2024, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

https://www.company23.com/products/suspension

Holy hell, thanks bud. will probably get that tool instead of re purposing another for the job.

danger1138 · 08-15-2024, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie-III

That gets you back to a possibly incorrect bearing preload. The shop should have marked the sundial BEFORE removing it when doing the seal. If they didn't no clue on where you are now.
@Elbert Bass referenced the proper fix now which is to measure backlash to set the sundial. Not a trivial task.

Doing anything else is guessing on preload, thus maybe an issue down the road.

I would start by looking for a reference mark the shop may have made. Or, ask if they did so and counted turns. A new seal or O-ring won't make a difference in bearing preload (which is the purpose of the sundial)

I understand that the shop should have marked the dial, but they did not. Now im in this predicament.

I drove the car after the "fix" from the crappy shop for about 100 or so miles, at times spiritedly & did not experience nor notice anything adverse while going thru the gears, so safe to assume the pre load was sorta on the mark; right? So i believe this can be a good starting point?

Also, my leak isnt anything severe. There isnt any puddle on the ground or anything of that sort. When i get under the vehicle i notice oil originating from the axle seal / sundial portion to the drain plug.
Im not even sure if its leaking from sundial seal or from axle seal. Will post a picture.

arse_sidewards · 08-15-2024, 07:08 AM

The sundial doesn't really change backlash if you're only touching one of them.

Think of it like a machinist vise with two traveling jaws. If you're only moving one jaw you're not affecting absolute position (enough to matter), just preload.

Secondly, it's really hard to have "too much" preload. Carrier bearings ****ing love preload. On truck rear axles where you can set preload with side adjusters (e.g. some GM axles) it's not unheard of for people who are pushing the limits of what the axle can take to make custom striking wrenches to get them extra tight and on axles where you don't have side adjusters those same people will put the axle in the sun and put the carrier in the freezer to get an extra 5-10 thou. This doesn't really apply to you since you're limited by the torque the aluminum in aluminum threads can take and the torque the tool can apply to those little tabs and even if that weren't an issue the big floppy aluminum casting would just spread. But the point is don't worry about having a little too much preload.

danger1138 · 08-15-2024, 08:59 PM

I couldn't sleep, been thinking about this for hours hoping my transmission doesn't grenade. I'm OCD, had a 5 spd go on me because I had a small leak I did not take serious.

Thanks for the heads up. So if I'm understanding what you posted correctly , since the passenger side dial was not touched (driver side is where dial came off in order to service axle seal); its really just a matter of counting total turns it takes to remove dial, cleaning things up, replace dial o-ring with a new one, replace axle seal correctly , and reinstalling dial according to number of turns it took to remove? Correct?

Also with this older version 6spd (axle stubs in transmission/female axles); must the sundial be removed in order to install axle seals?

arse_sidewards · 08-15-2024, 09:50 PM

You should be able to do the seal without pulling the dial. Same as a pinion seal, sector shaft seal, trans output, etc, etc.

If you do remove the dial:

Mark dial, remove dial counting turns, do your stuff, replace dial. If it's not tight when you spin it back the same number of turns and get it back to the mark go until it's tight (there should be a distinct point where it gets tight (if you've ever seated bearings on a spindle this is basically the same feeling I'm talking about) since these are all solid metal objects butting together) then add a tiny bit for preload. Maybe 1/2 to 1 "mark" on the dial, not enough to flex things and change backlash, just enough to add a bit of preload.

danger1138 · 08-16-2024, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

You should be able to do the seal without pulling the dial. Same as a pinion seal, sector shaft seal, trans output, etc, etc.

If you do remove the dial:

Mark dial, remove dial counting turns, do your stuff, replace dial. If it's not tight when you spin it back the same number of turns and get it back to the mark go until it's tight (there should be a distinct point where it gets tight (if you've ever seated bearings on a spindle this is basically the same feeling I'm talking about) since these are all solid metal objects butting together) then add a tiny bit for preload. Maybe 1/2 to 1 "mark" on the dial, not enough to flex things and change backlash, just enough to add a bit of preload.

I just pulled the trigger and purchased the Company 23 dial socket. But here's the thing; i presume the dial will have to come out. My transmission has stubs coming off of it, uses female style axles like the older 04 sti transmissions used to use.

Lmk if im missing something here..

arse_sidewards · 08-16-2024, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danger1138

I just pulled the trigger and purchased the Company 23 dial socket. But here's the thing; i presume the dial will have to come out. My transmission has stubs coming off of it, uses female style axles like the older 04 sti transmissions used to use.

Lmk if im missing something here..

Have you ever replaced a pinion seal on a differential without removing the pinion (i.e. the normal way)? Seal replacement with the stubs in should go like that but more ****ty because you're working in a smaller space.

You shouldn't need to pull the dial.

danger1138 · 08-16-2024, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

Have you ever replaced a pinion seal on a differential without removing the pinion (i.e. the normal way)? Seal replacement with the stubs in should go like that but more ****ty because you're working in a smaller space.

You shouldn't need to pull the dial.

Nope, i have not ever replaced a pinion seal on a diff.

But i'd like to replace the o-ring on the sundial if im already in there since it was touched already by these mechanic hacks. That may be the reason for my slight leak.

arse_sidewards · 08-16-2024, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danger1138

Nope, i have not ever replaced a pinion seal on a diff.

But i'd like to replace the o-ring on the sundial if im already in there since it was touched already by these mechanic hacks. That may be the reason for my slight leak.

Well the TL;DR is that you just rip it out with a seal puller (or go around the edge under the metal lip with a screwdriver if you're trying to save it) and install the new one with a socket or sleeve of pipe or whatever and the shaft doesn't really cause a problem.

But if you're pulling the sundial then just do the seal with it out.

danger1138 · 08-16-2024, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

Well the TL;DR is that you just rip it out with a seal puller (or go around the edge under the metal lip with a screwdriver if you're trying to save it) and install the new one with a socket or sleeve of pipe or whatever and the shaft doesn't really cause a problem.

But if you're pulling the sundial then just do the seal with it out.

Exactly what i plan to do; remove dial flip it over, install axle seal from the inside with the dial already off (obviously) on a bench. Btw anyone knows what size socket fits over the seal in order to install without that special seal tool?

Since i have the older style 6 spd transmission with stubs on them, when i go to remove dial, will the dial come off along with stubs attached?

Elbert Bass · 08-18-2024, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danger1138

Exactly what i plan to do; remove dial flip it over, install axle seal from the inside with the dial already off (obviously) on a bench. Btw anyone knows what size socket fits over the seal in order to install without that special seal too?

Since i have the older style 6 spd transmission with stubs on them, when i go to remove dial, will the dial come off along with stubs attached?

Axle stubs stay locked into the differential side gears. (at least they should).

danger1138 · 08-18-2024, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elbert Bass

Axle stubs stay locked into the differential side gears. (at least they should).

Ok great, one less thing to worry about.

Elbert Bass · 08-18-2024, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danger1138

Ok great, one less thing to worry about.

Actually it makes for one more thing to be aware of - make sure when reinstalling the carrier you don't roll the spring out of the inside of the seal lip as you slide it over the stub.

danger1138 · 08-20-2024, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elbert Bass

Actually it makes for one more thing to be aware of - make sure when reinstalling the carrier you don't roll the spring out of the inside of the seal lip as you slide it over the stub.

Will look out for that but brings me back to my question, anyone know what size socket to use in order to install this seal properly without fudging up the lip.

danger1138 · 09-10-2024, 03:13 AM

Answered my own question; the socket that can be used to install an axle seal is a 32mm socket. Same size socket used to remove axle nut.

danger1138 · 09-10-2024, 03:18 AM

BTW; i de-greased my undercarriage, wiped it real good down there to try and pinpoint where any potential leak may be coming from. Ive driven the car for a week , spirited , and have not noticed any leaks.

When installing a new CV axle on the front passenger side, the female end of the axle pulled out with the stub attached to it (roll pin was already installed). I went to adjust and insert axle into transmission and while tinkering with it, noticed a small axle seal spring came out.

Should i replace that axle seal or keep it as is until i notice a leak?

08-14-2024, 07:21 AM	#1
danger1138 Scooby Specialist Member#: 279525 Join Date: Apr 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Arkansas Vehicle: 06 Fxt	6 speed transmission axle seal retainer/ sundial leak Hey all. currently running a JDM forester 6 speed transmission on my 06 forester xt. Recently went to get a driver side front axle along with that sides axle seal replaced at a small mom and pop shop. This transmission uses the older sti 'female' axles. transmission oil seems to be leaking now. Yes, the correct side axle seal was used for the job. I noticed in order to replace the axle seal, they removed the sundial. Ive read that these sundials are preloaded and cant just be screwed back in place like you would any screw w/ threads on it. They must/should be screwed back exactly the way it was installed, counting the # of revolutions originally to prevent any type of leak. With all my trust lost in this shop, i plan to tackle this job myself. How can i go about 'resetting', so to say, the sundial, back to its normal place? and yes once in there i will replace the sealing o-ring on the sundial, most likely new axle seal as well. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

08-15-2024, 07:08 AM	#12
arse_sidewards Scooby Newbie Member#: 532328 Join Date: Dec 2022	The sundial doesn't really change backlash if you're only touching one of them. Think of it like a machinist vise with two traveling jaws. If you're only moving one jaw you're not affecting absolute position (enough to matter), just preload. Secondly, it's really hard to have "too much" preload. Carrier bearings ***ing love preload. On truck rear axles where you can set preload with side adjusters (e.g. some GM axles) it's not unheard of for people who are pushing the limits of what the axle can take to make custom striking wrenches to get them extra tight and on axles where you don't have side adjusters those same people will put the axle in the sun and put the carrier in the freezer to get an extra 5-10 thou. This doesn't really apply to you since you're limited by the torque the aluminum in aluminum threads can take and the torque the tool can apply to those little tabs and even if that weren't an issue the big floppy aluminum casting would just spread. But the point is don't worry about having a little too much preload. Last edited by arse_sidewards; 08-15-2024 at 08:34 AM.*

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08-14-2024, 08:03 AM	#2
arse_sidewards Scooby Newbie Member#: 532328 Join Date: Dec 2022	The sundial preloads the carrier bearing. The position is about preload, not leaking.

08-14-2024, 08:21 AM	#3
Elbert Bass Scooby Specialist Member#: 283429 Join Date: May 2011 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Down yonder. Vehicle: 2016 Fuji Sunfire 03 Silver	Most common practice is to index the dial/case with a small punch mark then count the number of turns it takes to remove. Hopefully that is how the shop did it... The only other option is get the FSM and some special tools. Odds are they did not replace the carrier (sundial) O-ring and that is where it is leaking. The big deal is to be sure everything is super clean - those fine threads are easily stripped. I once watched a Subaru tech strip a carrier, then strip a case with the new carrier.

08-14-2024, 01:10 PM	#8
arse_sidewards Scooby Newbie Member#: 532328 Join Date: Dec 2022	https://www.company23.com/products/suspension

08-15-2024, 08:59 PM	#13
danger1138 Scooby Specialist Member#: 279525 Join Date: Apr 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Arkansas Vehicle: 06 Fxt	I couldn't sleep, been thinking about this for hours hoping my transmission doesn't grenade. I'm OCD, had a 5 spd go on me because I had a small leak I did not take serious. Thanks for the heads up. So if I'm understanding what you posted correctly , since the passenger side dial was not touched (driver side is where dial came off in order to service axle seal); its really just a matter of counting total turns it takes to remove dial, cleaning things up, replace dial o-ring with a new one, replace axle seal correctly , and reinstalling dial according to number of turns it took to remove? Correct? Also with this older version 6spd (axle stubs in transmission/female axles); must the sundial be removed in order to install axle seals?

08-15-2024, 09:50 PM	#14
arse_sidewards Scooby Newbie Member#: 532328 Join Date: Dec 2022	You should be able to do the seal without pulling the dial. Same as a pinion seal, sector shaft seal, trans output, etc, etc. If you do remove the dial: Mark dial, remove dial counting turns, do your stuff, replace dial. If it's not tight when you spin it back the same number of turns and get it back to the mark go until it's tight (there should be a distinct point where it gets tight (if you've ever seated bearings on a spindle this is basically the same feeling I'm talking about) since these are all solid metal objects butting together) then add a tiny bit for preload. Maybe 1/2 to 1 "mark" on the dial, not enough to flex things and change backlash, just enough to add a bit of preload.

09-10-2024, 03:13 AM	#24
danger1138 Scooby Specialist Member#: 279525 Join Date: Apr 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Arkansas Vehicle: 06 Fxt	Answered my own question; the socket that can be used to install an axle seal is a 32mm socket. Same size socket used to remove axle nut.

09-10-2024, 03:18 AM	#25
danger1138 Scooby Specialist Member#: 279525 Join Date: Apr 2011 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Arkansas Vehicle: 06 Fxt	BTW; i de-greased my undercarriage, wiped it real good down there to try and pinpoint where any potential leak may be coming from. Ive driven the car for a week , spirited , and have not noticed any leaks. When installing a new CV axle on the front passenger side, the female end of the axle pulled out with the stub attached to it (roll pin was already installed). I went to adjust and insert axle into transmission and while tinkering with it, noticed a small axle seal spring came out. Should i replace that axle seal or keep it as is until i notice a leak?