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Old 05-05-2008, 03:58 PM   #1
SubbyOBS
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Default Any comments on 99 Legacy Outback WGN 30Anny

I am looking for this 1999 Legacy Outback 30th Anniversary Edition wagon. The seller has this car with very low milage (carfax checked) and no accident. The milage is at 56,000 miles now and selling for 6800.

I read the other forums, reviews, said that the 2.5 DOHC engine is junk. It will leak around 60k miles and then leak every where plus a potential of blown head gasket.

Just trying to gather opinions before buying it....

I have only the SOHC engine subby so far, and want to try the DOHC as well...but it seemed everyone hates the early 99 Dohc engine.
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:07 PM   #2
linsavy
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The transmission can also develop binding, the rear wiper fails, the engine can start shaking at idle and the headgasket is poor as you found. Otherwise it is a pretty good car.
Do you feel lucky?
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:51 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linsavy View Post
The transmission can also develop binding, the rear wiper fails, the engine can start shaking at idle and the headgasket is poor as you found. Otherwise it is a pretty good car.
Do you feel lucky?
That can happen with any Subaru.
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Old 05-05-2008, 04:58 PM   #4
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Just plan on doing the headgaskets BEFORE it becomes a real problem.

Trouble starts when the headgasket goes and the owner does nothing until something is damaged.

I have the underpowered 2.2 and the car has been rock solid. I would also look at changing the timing belt, since it is rubber and may be aged pretty good. Everything in my car still works except I have not changed out my wiper fluid squirter motor since it died. I have 130k miles.

I am not sure about 6800 though..... What does one with 130k Blue Book for?
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:31 PM   #5
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even with the headgasket problems, the 2.5 can still be a solid engine, you just have to pay a lot more attention to it than most other subarus.

personally, i'm considering getting a 97-99 outback or outback limited sometime next year for myself.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:50 PM   #6
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I have 190 k on mine and I love it. Buy it, change the HG's (do it anyway) and be happy for a long time. I have no tranny probs and I auto x mine+ rallyx it with manual shifting. The auto is strong, but very sluggish (gearing is horrible).
My advise, install an aftermarket trans cooler, and change the head gaskets =set for a while
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:20 PM   #7
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Go with the 2.2L wagon and install all the extra convenience features on it. Better than a headgasket job.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dealer Xing View Post
Go with the 2.2L wagon and install all the extra convenience features on it. Better than a headgasket job.
My 2.2 has all the extra convenience that the Outback has minus the 2.5l motor.

I would buy the 2.5l, with the thought that I will change the headgaskets and timing belt immediately. That car will last.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birukun View Post
My 2.2 has all the extra convenience that the Outback has minus the 2.5l motor.

I would buy the 2.5l, with the thought that I will change the headgaskets and timing belt immediately. That car will last.
I thought the subby claimed that the 1st generation DOHC 2.5L engine can cause the headgasket fail....however, by adding the coolant conditioner, it will last longer??
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:35 PM   #10
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I thought I read that the newer gasket was of a better design, ie. the original gasket was the problem.

The bottom line is that unless the previous owner showed me some documentation that showed the head gaskets being replaced, I would figure that into my car-buying budget. Along with the timing belt.

And even with the head gasket problem, if I could do it again - I would have bought the Outback. The dealer even offered me one at a killer discount because they had too many on the lot at the time, and we turned it down because of the 2 tone paint, and my wife was/is a sports car driver. The standard Legacy looked like the wagons we were used to seeing in Japan.

Last edited by birukun; 05-05-2008 at 10:37 PM. Reason: added bit about my car buying choice
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:28 AM   #11
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The HG problem stemmed from the fact that the original HGs were a bad design. The newer HGs are better. The coolant conditioner was a stop-leak solution, but for less than a coffee it's good insurance.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:39 AM   #12
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The Phase I EJ25 DOHC engine is an awesome motor.

While the 2000-2004 Phase II EJ25 SOHC design produces the same power as the DOHC motor it does so at a much lower RPM. In my experiance the DOHC engine really produces peak performance in the 4,800 to 6,500 RPM limit range. It is so powerful and this peak powerband is so narrow that I found it takes lots of effort to keep the motor running in its powerband. I find this motor to be both challenging and fun to drive.

The SOHC engine produces the same 165 BHP at a lower RPM and it has a much flatter power curve. This makes it much easier to drive.

Yes, there is a very high number of failed head gaskets on the DOHC motor, and no it isnt just the head gasket design itself, Subaru strengthened the engine block on the Phase II SOHC motor making the newer motor nearly bullet proof. Unfortunately in their rush to get the newer motor in production to fix the faults of the DOHC design, they innitially used a poorly designed head gasket.

Virtually all of the early SOHC EJ25 motors did suffer from some form head gasket issues, but unlike the catostrofic failures of the PHASE I DOHC motor, these were mostly minor "seapage" problems which as long as you kept your coolant level topped off could be ignored.

The new and improved head gasket design has virtually eliminated all of these issues.

Huffer's reference to the "coolant conditioner" stop-leak is a product that should only be used in the newer Phase II 2000+ EJ25 Legacys, and the few "hi-bred" 1999 Legacys built in the US plant. Ones that have had the new head gaskets installed do not require this conditioner.

The coolant conditioner that Huffer mentioned does not help with the earlier Phase I motors. Also given the higher probability of getting a plugged up heater core, I really question Huffer's statement that the use of this product is "good insurance". It is more of a trade off, In my opinion.

While I would certainly be concerned about purchasing a used car with the earlier Phase I EJ25 motor I would not let those concerns stop me from purchasing one.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:18 AM   #13
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just for reference, does anyone know if this new headgasket has to be purchased at a subaru dealership, or do the Napa/Autozone/Kragen/whatever equivalents have the same design? granted, most people are going to go with OEM gaskets anyway, but just to be sure...
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:30 AM   #14
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OEM, for sure.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that one legacy View Post
just for reference, does anyone know if this new headgasket has to be purchased at a subaru dealership, or do the Napa/Autozone/Kragen/whatever equivalents have the same design? granted, most people are going to go with OEM gaskets anyway, but just to be sure...

I purchased mine from the dealer. I got STi ej25 (04) head gaskets on mine though...just in case. They are not expensive. 30k miles of track style use and not a prob.

I usually tend to buy all of my "important" parts from the dealership though. If I had to pick an outside source though, I would go with NAPA, their quality is unmatched, and their warrenty is outstanding. Although a little more expensive, NAPA has great parts.
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
That can happen with any Subaru.
Everything I said is true.

Not all subarus have HG issues. The 2.2l doesn't for example. The manual trannies are also quite good outside of the 2002 WRX unit. The MY99 auto tranny has seen some failures, but in general it is pretty solid, just not as good as later years.
The OP is looking at top dollar for a low mile Outback. He should know what problems await. If he gets it for less money, then he can set aside some money for the future HG job that may never come. Or he can pass and get something else. Failed HG sucks, especially if it happens far from home with your family in the car or if you have no back up car.
IMHO a 2.2l with a manual is a heck of good car and I would buy one before a 2.5l auto even with twice the mileage. Less power sure, but better longevity and fuel economy. YMMV. For $6.8k plus $1.5k for the HG job, he could be looking at 2004 legacy or outback with some miles on them.
The DOHC is otherwise a good motor once the new HG is done and if there was no bearing damage. It can run a long long time. Not really powerful or efficient, but not at all bad.

Oh yeah, they also tend to rust behind the rear wheel arc. Check that out before you buy.
PS
Forgot about piston slap that the EJ25D also has frequently. Mostly harmless, but can develop into a noisy situation.

Last edited by linsavy; 05-06-2008 at 01:53 PM. Reason: add piston slap
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Old 05-06-2008, 03:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
I purchased mine from the dealer. I got STi ej25 (04) head gaskets on mine though...just in case. They are not expensive. 30k miles of track style use and not a prob.

I usually tend to buy all of my "important" parts from the dealership though. If I had to pick an outside source though, I would go with NAPA, their quality is unmatched, and their warrenty is outstanding. Although a little more expensive, NAPA has great parts.
okay so STi gaskets will fit then, that's actually very good info!

and speaking of noise, the earlier (95 to 97 i believe?) 2.2L can develop this really irritating lifter tick. in some cases it's not that noticeable. in others (like mine), it sounds like someone's tapping on your engine with a small hammer!
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:39 PM   #18
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VIN: 4S3BG6856X7637452

How can I found out this is Phase I, or Phase II DOHC engine? I talked to the owner, all he remembered that the dealership charge him to replace a timing belt for nearly 1800 for two days job. However, he cannot find the receipt. I am suspecting the dealer actually change the HG for the car because it looked very clean (some oxidation white stuff on the engine)....

I have a 00 Impreza RS, that for sure is the sohc 165 hp engine; I forgot how to read that....
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:16 PM   #19
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well any legacy or outback from '96-99 with a 2.5 is going to have the phase I DOHC, but it should be noted that the '96 is a slightly different engine (for one thing, it uses premium gas). your RS is fine because it's a '00, only the '98 RS had the Phase I motor (same with the '98 Forester, '99 and on had the Phase II), 99 and on were Phase II. all legacy and outback models from 2000 and on with the 2.5 had Phase IIs.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubbyOBS View Post
VIN: 4S3BG6856X7637452
Quote:
The first 3 digits are the vehicle type / Manufactures location:
"JF1" Passenger car manufactured by FHI in Japan.
"JF2" Multipurpose passenger vehicle made by FHI in Japan.
"4S3" Passenger car made by SIA in Indiana
"4S4" Multipurpose passenger vehicle made by SIA in Indiana (2005+ Outback for instance)

The 4th digit is the model:
"B" = Legacy
"G" = Impreza, "S" = Forrester, "W" = Tribeca

The 5th digit is the vehicle type:
"C" 1st gen Sedan, "F" or "J" 1st gen Wagon
"D" 2nd gen Sedan, "G" 2nd gen Wagon, "K" 2nd gen Wagon
"E" 3rd gen Sedan, "H" 3rd gen Wagon
"L" 4th gen Sedan, "P" 4th gen Wagon

T=Baja
D=Impreza Sedan
X=Tribeca ("Crossover" vehicle)

The 6th digit of the VIN is the engine code.
6 ..... '90-'95 2.2 liter
3 ..... '96+ 2.2 Liter (FWD)
4 ..... '96+ 2.2 Liter (AWD)
6 ..... '96+ 2.5 Liter (only available w/AWD)
7 ..... '04+ 2.5 Liter Turbo (Sti ?)
8 ..... '01+ 3.0 H6 (only available w/AWD) ???

The 7th digit is the Trim Level (varies by year and model):
2 = 2nd Gen Brighton
3 = 2nd Gen L, Outback
4 = 2nd Gen LS, LSi
5 = 3rd Gen GT (?)
6 = ?
7 = 1st Gen Turbo, 2nd Gen GT

2005 MY 0=XT, 1=i, 2=i ltd, 3=XT ltd, 4=R 5=R ltd, 6=R LL Bean, 7=GT Ltd, 8=GT 9=GT Spec B

The 8th digit is the Weight Class and/or Restraint Type :
5 = Dual SRS Airbags
6 = Dual SRS Airbags + Side curtain airbags. (?)
C = Class C (4000-5000 Lb GVWR)

The 9th digit is simply a "check digit" :

The 10th digit is the year of Manufacture:
F=1985, G=1986, H=1987,
J=1988, K=1989, L=1990
M=1991, N=1992, P=1993
R =1994, S=1995, T=1996
V=1997, W=1998, X=1999
Y = 2000
1=2001, 2=2002, 3=2003
4=2004, 5=2005, 6=2006
7=2007

The 11th digit is the Transmission/Drivetrain configuration (varies by year and MFG plant):
1=SIA 5spd FWD
3=SIA 6spd AWD
4=SIA 5EAT AWD
6=SIA 5spd AWD
7=SIA 4EAT AWD
9=SIA 4EAT FWD
G=FIH 5spd AWD
-= 6spd or RHD Postal vehicle
H=FHI auto AWD
L=FIH 6spd AWD

Digits 12 through 17 are for the sequential serial number part of the VIN
1##### is for Baja
2##### is for Legacy 4-door Sedans
3##### is for Legacy Station Wagons
4##### is for the B9 Trebeca
5##### is for the Impreza Sedan
6##### is for Legacy & Outback Wagon
7##### is for Forrester
8##### is for Impreza Sport Wagon
So... for VIN: 4S3BG6856X7637452

4S3 means it was made in Indiana
BG Means its a Legacy Wagon
6 means its the 2.5 Litre EJ25 Motor
8 for a trim level for a '99 Outback Wagon ? I dunno.
5 means dual airbags
6 is the check digit
X means it is a 1999 Model year of manufacture
7 means it is a 4EAT automatic with AWD
6 designates its a Legacy or Outback WAGON
37452 designates the serial number

For model year 1999 Subaru used mostly Phase I EJ25 motors in their US built Legacys, and the Phase II EJ25 motors were used in their Impreza RS and other Japanese built vehicles. At some point in the US manufacture (after April of 1999?), SoA (Indiana) ran out of their Phase I EJ25 engine blocks and started building their rare hi-brid Phase II block / Phase I DOHC, MAF intake motors.

I don't have enough information based on the VIN to tell which motor your car uses, although with more information it may be possible to tell based on the cars date of manufacture (build date) and/or Serial number. (?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubbyOBS View Post
How can I found out this is Phase I, or Phase II DOHC engine? I talked to the owner, all he remembered that the dealership charged him to replace a timing belt for nearly $1800 for two days job. However, he cannot find the receipt. I am suspecting the dealer actually changed the HG for the car because it looked very clean (some oxidation white stuff on the engine)....

I have a 00 Impreza RS, that for sure is the SOHC 165 hp engine; I forgot how to read that....
You COULD use http://www.mysubaru.com to view the actual service history of this vehicle, although Subaru will want proof that you or the person who registers at this web site is the actual owner before they will let you view the service history. If it was indeed work done at an SoA dealership, then the service history on the mySubaru site will tell you what work was actually performed.

At one point on this NASIOC site some posters claimed to be able to tell Phase I and Phase II blocks apart based on casting marks on the motor. Unfortunately I can not tell you where these casting marks are located. Based on memory, I *think* it was 2 marks for the Phase I motor and 1 mark for the Phase II motor ?
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:41 PM   #21
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If you use the mysubaru.com site, you can actually email the site admins and ask them for more information like open recalls etc on a VIN that you are expecting to buy. I have done it twice.
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:11 PM   #22
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The Engine label inside the hood is EJ25DAXEYL

The car was made in 12/98 (but it is the 1999 30th anniversary model).

The valve cover is smooth surface. There are 8 bolts connected from the tranny to the engine.

So can someone tell by the information to see if the car is Phase I or II?
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:22 PM   #23
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My *guess* based only the build date is that it is just the regular Phase I motor.

You can easily spot on the front of the motor the two circles on each side of those black plastic covers indicating that it is indeed a DOHC motor.

A true full blown Phase II motor has Single Overhead Cams (SOHC) and uses a MAP (Manifold Pressure) sensor VS a MAF (Mass Airflow) Sensor. To my knowlege Subaru built no true Phase II motors in their 1999 model year US built Legacys.

The hope that I was offering you is that it *MIGHT* be a Phase II engine block, with the Phase I DOHC cylinder head... the so called "Hybrid" motor (still technically a Phase I motor) but with out all the worries of the older design.

Regardless of the actual engine block used, if you check out the mysubaru.com web site and confirm that the head gaskets have been replaced with the newer head gasket design, you can pretty much be reassured that the engine will be highly reliable and likely last for another hundred thousand (or so) miles.

If the head gaskets have not been done there is a good possibilty that at some point you may run into the dreaded blown head gasket issue, and yes, it can be an expensive repair when done at a Subaru dealership.

At any rate the Phase I EJ25 motors are certainly NOT junk, although there has been a high rate of head gasket failures with these motors. There has also been some instances of block failures (cracks) and of so called "piston slap" issues (when the motor is cold).

Again, please understand that even with all these "issues" that the Phase I DOHC EJ25 motors are not "junk". There are several forum members here who have had their head gaskets replaced, and they are still loyal Subaru owners.

Last edited by Jonathan; 05-08-2008 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:41 PM   #24
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I've got a phase 1 DOHC motor, and it is certainly a lot more fun to drive than the 2000 Legacy L I had before.

Go for it.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
My *guess* based only the build date is that it is just the regular Phase I motor.
It also says EJ25D, which is not a denotation I've seen used for the phase II EJ25s. I'm pretty sure the Impreza and some of the foresters were the only ones that got phase II engines in 99. Probably because they're built in Japan.
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