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Old 12-03-2003, 09:18 AM   #101
chuglobal
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Default Updated Map 4000-7000 rpm

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Old 12-03-2003, 09:23 AM   #102
chuglobal
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Default Update Map 4-7K rpm

1. I've pulled 1 degree at 4K rpm and added back 1 degree at 4250 rpm.

2. I've also been thinking that higher heat and less fuel ( leaner ) mixture will help the turbo spool faster. This theory + the fact that "ALL" tunned Stage 2 maps, which I've seen online, have a "negative" value for the fuel values instead of the "positive" values which come w/ the base Stage 2 map. Would it be a good test to make all the positive values to "0" w/out using a WB O2 sensor?
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Old 12-03-2003, 10:34 AM   #103
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A leaner mixture will benefit spool. So will an MBC or good EBC instead of the Utec for boost control.

You really need to get a WBO2 on that car and get the fuel map tweaked. Once you do it you won't need to do it again unless you change something major. All the headaches you have now will be a thing of the past.
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Old 12-03-2003, 11:41 AM   #104
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True, a leaner mixture will benefit spool, but you don't have any idea what your mixture is now. My tuned stage 2 map did NOT have negative values for fuel, but had positive values everywhere. DON'T tune fuel without a wideband. You will NOT knock just because of too much fuel. You might leave power on the table, etc., but how much spool trouble are you having now?

Also true, a good MBC or EBC might spool better than your UTEC, but I wouldn't be so sure about that. With an MBC, you also have to deal with PTFB (part-throttle, full-boost) problems and the potential damage that comes with that.

If you're serious, find a decent tuner to work with to nail that fuel curve first. Once that's done, you're good to go. If you can't find a tuner, you can find LM-1 WbO2 tools for about $300.

-Sean
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Old 12-03-2003, 06:39 PM   #105
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Default Yo

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a coorelation somewhere where I'm not seeing.
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Old 12-03-2003, 06:39 PM   #106
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Default Yo

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a correlation somewhere where I'm not seeing.
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Old 12-03-2003, 06:39 PM   #107
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Default Yo

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a correlation somewhere where I'm not seeing.
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Old 12-03-2003, 07:21 PM   #108
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No surprise where you're knocking: 4000-4500 is right in the low range of the torque peak, meaning the highest cylinder pressures.

How much boost are you running? You could try pulling a little boost out and seeing what happens.

-Sean
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Old 12-03-2003, 07:33 PM   #109
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Default Yo

Aren't we "supposed" to hit peak torque at 4K rpm and slowly die off boost? Humm, maybe because it's cold I'm boosting higher than 16.5psi thus causing the knock?
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Old 12-03-2003, 09:42 PM   #110
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What boost are you hitting?

You should always make sure you're not sacrificing fuel and timing to carry more boost than works for your setup.

-Sean
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Old 12-04-2003, 07:38 AM   #111
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Default Boost 1 - Old

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Old 12-04-2003, 07:41 AM   #112
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Default Boost 2 - Test

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Old 12-04-2003, 07:43 AM   #113
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Default Yo

1. I agree which is why I've been thinking from another view. I've read and heard that you're right, you should never sacrifice boost for timing and fuel. I've also been wondering why my car seems to have "higher" values for the boost numbers in the UTEC; I remember setting it up at 55-60 degree for 16.5psi. However due to the cold weather I've been seeing 16.5-18psi +\- during those knock times between 3rd and 4th shifts or just transition states in general. I haven't had any recent logs however I remember seeing before in cold weather.
2. What I'm thinking is going WOT at 3K rpm in 4th until 5K+ rpm in 4th and trying to get boost to be no more than 17psi at any time in the cold ( 40 degrees ) weather which should equal 16-16.5psi in the normal ( 50-60 degrees ) weather and lower boost at temperature increase. I'll decrease the boost values until I hit my goals. Is this a good approach?
3. I've been looking at other maps on WRXHackers and notice that my boost values are all "higher" than any maps posted. That should have been a clue for me right away since we're all running the Stage 2.
4. Does boost tunning affect A/F or vice versa? IE: if I tune boost now and do A/F later, will tunning the A/F lower or increase boost? If I tune A/F first then tune boost, will it adjust the A/F since both causes will affect the "boost=air?
5. The 2 maps above are the old boost vs. the new "test" boost which has lower values than the previous version which is correct. It's from 3500 rpm > 7000 rpm @ 70-100% load.
6. I'll upload the boost map once I get to work since my laptop is at work and add back the timing and see what happens from there.
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Old 12-04-2003, 10:58 AM   #114
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Well, first off, you should convert to closed-loop boost right away. Read the UTEC manual for details, but in OLB you can expect boost to fluctuate widely in various temps and altitudes.

Your idea for decreasing your boost settings to match your needs is pretty much right on.

No, boost won't affect AFRs. Remember, open-loop fueling is done based on two axis of a table: revs and load, and load is MAF voltage. MAF voltage is higher when the rate of air passing past the MAF sensor is higher, so the car is adding fuel to directly match the amount of air passing by.

Good luck. I'll be away for the next couple of days, so I won't check the forums until I'm back.

-Sean
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Old 12-04-2003, 12:01 PM   #115
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Default Yo

Some people have mentioned to me that I should try CL vs. OL boost control. How does CL help during the weather changes and how does it exactly work? Also the manual states to change the value from 1 to 0 to go from OL to CL then start tunning w/ a value of 200.
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Old 12-04-2003, 12:13 PM   #116
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Default Re: Yo

Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal
Some people have mentioned to me that I should try CL vs. OL boost control. How does CL help during the weather changes and how does it exactly work? Also the manual states to change the value from 1 to 0 to go from OL to CL then start tunning w/ a value of 200.
From the special constants menu, you'll need to change the default of =1 to =0 for CLB. Once in CLB, just ctrl/f a value of 200 all the way from the 50 column to 100. From there, just play with the number raising them as high as needed (up to a value of 500) until you're boosting where you need to be.

As far as the benefit of going from OLB to CLB, I believe it's stated in the manual. I haven't had any problem so far in CLB and the temp has fluctuated from 30f- to 60f recently.
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Old 12-04-2003, 01:33 PM   #117
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Default Yo

1. I did a few quick little runs coming back from lunch. It's 26-34 degrees outside w/ rain. I didn't get knock from 1st > 2nd or 2nd > 3rd however I did get it going from 3rd > 4th at 5K rpm according to the tach. Thus I must have been running way too much boost exaggerate by the cold weather and thus the reason for the recent knocks between shifts. I'm going to change the value at 5K rpm from 85 to 83 and see if that solves the knocks.
2. I went through the 3.1 manual and did not see any details on OLB vs. CLB. Which page did you see the info? What boost ( psi ) are you getting at the default value of 200? What values did you end up w/?
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Old 12-04-2003, 01:54 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal
1. I did a few quick little runs coming back from lunch. It's 26-34 degrees outside w/ rain. I didn't get knock from 1st > 2nd or 2nd > 3rd however I did get it going from 3rd > 4th at 5K rpm according to the tach. Thus I must have been running way too much boost exaggerate by the cold weather and thus the reason for the recent knocks between shifts. I'm going to change the value at 5K rpm from 85 to 83 and see if that solves the knocks.
2. I went through the 3.1 manual and did not see any details on OLB vs. CLB. Which page did you see the info? What boost ( psi ) are you getting at the default value of 200? What values did you end up w/?

Each set up is going to be different, i.e. which ever turbo you're using, how much you've got the ABC set screw backed out and even car to car. I'm running a value of 500 from 6250 to redline in in the 70-100% columns and only like 300 somewhere in the mid-range. It would really depend on if I backed the ABC in or out and then it would change. You just need to put the numbers in (ctrl/f will take like 2 seconds) and go from there.

Concerning your knocks between shifts, if you've already got the 10-50% column mapped for timing (other than ECU) try lowering those numbers where you see knock. You should be able to still boost normal.

Last edited by Division By Zero; 12-04-2003 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 12-04-2003, 03:17 PM   #119
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Default Yo

So we can "mix" controlling the boost from ECU to CLB? Currently the base Stage use uses ECU control from 10-60% and then the UTEC takes over from 70-100% in OLB. Do I just change the UTEC to use CLB and change the values from the same 70-100% load points to 200 and go up from there? I didn't see anything specific regarding tunning in CLB in the manual.
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Old 12-04-2003, 03:29 PM   #120
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The maps look the same on the OL vs CL, only the values are different. Just leave "ECU" on the 0% - 50/60% and put your new numbers in the rest of the columns from 500 to 9000rpms.
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Old 12-04-2003, 03:32 PM   #121
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Default Yo

Are you running the stock turbo? If so could you post up your map just so I can have a general idea? So by using CLB your boost values are no longer being affected by temperature? Which parameters are used to adjust values for CLB?
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Old 12-04-2003, 03:47 PM   #122
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I'm not running a stock turbo but I can post up my CL boost map for illustration if you want. I'm at work right now but could do it later when I get home.
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Old 12-04-2003, 05:35 PM   #123
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Default Yo

1. Did you happen to remember what boost level ( psi ) you got when you used 200 as a starting point for CLB control from 500-9000rpm @ 70-100% load?
2. The manual states to increase the CLB by "small" increments, however since the values are 200-500+, wouldn't it be more efficient to adjust by 25-50 increments? I know ... not having a personal dyno does suck.
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Old 12-04-2003, 10:56 PM   #124
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Default Yo

I changed from OLB to CLB ... I started w/ a value of 200 as stated in the manual from 1500-9000 rpm @ 70-100% load. These were the following values / psi ...

200 = 10psi
300 = 12-13psi
400 = 15-16psi

Once I hit 400 I started to get knock at the 4000-5250 rpm range as expected. I've changed the values from 400 to 330 in the 4000-5250 rpm range. It was weird; I had 330 for 4000-4750 rpm and 350 for 5000-5250. When I first made the change earlier tonight I was knock free however later tonight I started to get knock again thus the reason I'm running 330 for 4000-5250 rpm. I'm running around 15.5-15.9 psi. I check tomorrow morning again driving to work.
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Old 12-05-2003, 09:44 AM   #125
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Default Humm ...

I noticed that I should have a value of 400+ in CLB to obtain 16psi. However what bothers me is that I'm getting knock again between shifts. I did a good 3500rpm-6000rpm pull in 4th this morning on my drive to work and go knock at 5750-6000 rpm range; this knock is definitely due to timing since there was no shifting involved and boost was only at 13+ psi. I've been looking at the log and notice that at NO time am I overboosting since I'm not even making 16psi; I'm running at high 15s during the 400 value sections. Thus the only reason must be either too much timing or harsh shifting. Why was I fine last night and as the night progressed and this morning I'm getting knock again? Can anyone shed some light?
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