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Old 01-17-2020, 10:51 AM   #76
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I drove high horsepower (for the time) RWD cars with no nannies year round, as well as fwd economy cars and moderately powered fwd cars with no nannies or the nannies disabled.

What I'm getting at here, is that under acceleration in less than optimal conditions, a RWD car is going to get going quicker than a FWD car (assuming similar power levels and similar tire widths).
Yeah, I agree with this.

I had a 2011 Mustang GT and I have a MK7 GTI now. The RWD Mustang was easier to modulate the throttle to get going quicker. I drove it in a few midwest winters and it wasn't horrendous in the slick ****.

RWD is more predictable too sans the nannies, FWD just seems like it has a mind of its own sometimes, even in a well sorted out FWD car like the GTI.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:15 AM   #77
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:19 PM   #78
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My 06 wrx wagon ate fronts too - I had whiteline com-c tophats to get more negative camber up front and camber bolts out back to get less negative camber, not to mention the other hard parts under it to make it as neutral as possible (honestly it would oversteer when pushed beyond the limit, but could be fixed with the right foot thanks to AWD).

As for the charger, long wheelbase and 55F/45R weight distribution (or something like that) 245 is not enough tire, especially not with an open diff. Also I'm pretty sure one of the main design intents for the Charger was tire smoke.
But a good example where throttle control is required.

Since we're talking V8 RWD, I'll say something for modular mustangs; They build power later, and are much friendlier off the line (notable exception being the 03-04 cobras). Launching the newer stuff is easier than what I owned/modified, although tire technology has gotten significantly better as well, and that plays a major role, as well as driving in adverse conditions.
Yeah, I realized pretty early on that you got to wait for that weight transfer to happen, the rear wheels in the Charger are way back there and they have no idea about what's happening way in the front .
And, yes, tires have come such a long way, I still can't believe how good them Michelin PSS/PS4S are in the wet, under a heavy whale like Charger no less .

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[...]I have RWD vehicles now where moderation is absolutely key or you'll die, literally, or best case end up in the ER. They aren't as forgiving as an automobile 2 wheels, 170 RWHP, and 400 some odd pounds is a recipe for disaster if you don't know what you are doing, unable to be judicious with the throttle, and moderate yourself. I think that philosophy applies to most any vehicle in any weather condition. You just have limits in each.
You know it brother. I was riding my buddy's KTM 1290 "Super Adventure" around the block and the amount of power that thing can unleash pretty much off idle is NUTS and it's "only" 130~140 whp .
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:55 PM   #79
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You know it brother. I was riding my buddy's KTM 1290 "Super Adventure" around the block and the amount of power that thing can unleash pretty much off idle is NUTS and it's "only" 130~140 whp .
Teaches you throttle control better than any car ever will doesn't it? One of the least forgiving performance vehicles that exists.
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Old 01-17-2020, 08:24 PM   #80
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I don't know about that. Perhaps you are referring to the layman, the mouf breather, or both, dunno. But most of us here, that is not true. AWD does give you much more traction in inclement weather, and for many you can carry more speed because you have more traction but it's not a fool proof drivetrain. You still have to moderate the throttle, just not as much as FWD or RWD in inclement weather. I've done sh *t in my RS and STi that I could never do in any of my RWD vehicles I have owned, but moderating the throttle still has to be performed. You've just got a larger window or larger margins and larger margins of error. I have RWD vehicles now where moderation is absolutely key or you'll die, literally, or best case end up in the ER. They aren't as forgiving as an automobile 2 wheels, 170 RWHP, and 400 some odd pounds is a recipe for disaster if you don't know what you are doing, unable to be judicious with the throttle, and moderate yourself. I think that philosophy applies to most any vehicle in any weather condition. You just have limits in each.
Yeah, I agree with all that.

I miss my wife's 2002 WRX - snow drifting was the most fun ever. I would do the same in my 330i but it was a lot more stressful so not quite as fun.

I don't know how much a factor was the diff in the WRX.
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Old 01-18-2020, 02:54 PM   #81
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From what Iíve heard, Hondataís traction control tames the wheel spin for the TypeR.
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Old 01-19-2020, 08:11 AM   #82
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From what Iíve heard, Hondataís traction control tames the wheel spin for the TypeR.
yes...by doing what? lowering the power substantially in the lower gears, so that brings me back to my point i made to someone about what's the net result of it all when the power doesn't become usable until 3rd gear on dry warm pavement.

The mazdaspeed 3's had gear based boost control from the factory to mitigate the high power FWD problem,boost was limited to 8psi in 1st gear, and I think maybe like 12 in 2nd or so, you didn't get full boost until 3rd gear.
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Old 01-19-2020, 04:40 PM   #83
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It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Type R once the Honda plant in the UK closes. With it sharing the same platform as the hatch, will they both move to one of the Ohio facilities?
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Old 01-19-2020, 10:01 PM   #84
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It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Type R once the Honda plant in the UK closes. With it sharing the same platform as the hatch, will they both move to one of the Ohio facilities?
Yeah, they're both supposed to move to Ohio.
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Old 01-21-2020, 10:51 AM   #85
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yes...by doing what? lowering the power substantially in the lower gears, so that brings me back to my point i made to someone about what's the net result of it all when the power doesn't become usable until 3rd gear on dry warm pavement.
.
And once tuned, wheelspin out the A.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:50 PM   #86
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Hopefully when the hatch moves to Ohio, it will spawn a hatch Si.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:00 PM   #87
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A Si hatch or a narrow body 2.0T civic with the normal front suspension and interior would both be very nice additions to the lineup.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:02 PM   #88
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I would do a non-flare-on-flare-over-flare 2.0T hatch even with a cheapo basic band-aid AWD setup.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:05 PM   #89
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I'd probably do it with FWD and make do with snow tires, and I really need AWD given all the snow and hills.

The current Si is almost dirt cheap for what you get at $25,000. Now that the Type R is trending towards $40,000 there's tons of space for a Si with a better than 1.5 engine.
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Old 01-21-2020, 04:23 PM   #90
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I'd probably do it with FWD and make do with snow tires, and I really need AWD given all the snow and hills.

The current Si is almost dirt cheap for what you get at $25,000. Now that the Type R is trending towards $40,000 there's tons of space for a Si with a better than 1.5 engine.
Still not sure how I feel about this, a 1.5 liter engine that sounds worst then a lawnmower, but still 11.0 at 130. I know it's not supposed to be a drag car, but the 1.5 is making a lot more than the Type-R can do right now.


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Old 01-21-2020, 04:32 PM   #91
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They are definitely modding the 1.5 to a high state of tune. However, I'm mod averse on my daily driver and stock for stock the 2.0T (even in lower Accord output) would be a much nicer engine for a daily driven Si.

There's a local dealer that does Hondata tunes with warranty. If I were to mod it would be something like that, and I'd hope the 2.0T would get a better clutch than the 1.5 version Si.

Really though any sort of Si type hatch would be awesome. I need four doors and a Civic sedan is just too big. A 10th gen dwarfs my current 8th gen.
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Old 01-21-2020, 04:38 PM   #92
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Yeah the Accord spec engine would be perfect. Civic SiR please.
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Old 01-21-2020, 04:59 PM   #93
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For sure. And people are still paying mark up on type r in a lot of places. They could add 15 horsepower, offer it in yellow, and then set msrp to $43,000.

Then, an SiR with a 260íish horsepower 2.0t engine at around $30,000 would slot in nicely. Not everyone needs a 40mpg Si at $25,000 and not everyone wants such an extreme car as the type r. Theyíre really leaving out a large chunk of people who want performance AND seat heater along with normal tires and rims.
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Old 01-21-2020, 05:07 PM   #94
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I wouldn't turn down a Fit with that 1.5T too. Either one would be fun and rompable. I still don't mind FWD.
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Old 01-21-2020, 05:42 PM   #95
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I'd probably do it with FWD and make do with snow tires, and I really need AWD given all the snow and hills.

The current Si is almost dirt cheap for what you get at $25,000. Now that the Type R is trending towards $40,000 there's tons of space for a Si with a better than 1.5 engine.
I would make sense to offer a $2k cheaper Type R with 19" wheels and without the upgraded stereo and nav. I think it sold so well they didn't bother.
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Old 01-21-2020, 06:07 PM   #96
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For sure. And people are still paying mark up on type r in a lot of places. They could add 15 horsepower, offer it in yellow, and then set msrp to $43,000.

Then, an SiR with a 260’ish horsepower 2.0t engine at around $30,000 would slot in nicely. Not everyone needs a 40mpg Si at $25,000 and not everyone wants such an extreme car as the type r. They’re really leaving out a large chunk of people who want performance AND seat heater along with normal tires and rims.
Agreed. There is a case to be made for a car like this. Give me the 2.0T from the Accord with a slightly more aggressive tune with the Civic Sport/Si type styling 17/18 inch wheels and available AS tires and Ill gladly pay 30 grand for one. There is a ton of room left for something in between the Si and CTR. The ingredients are already there...It would make perfect sense.
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Old 01-21-2020, 06:20 PM   #97
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yes...by doing what?
By pulling timing, not boost, nor by closing the throttle. The question isnít how does it work, but does it make the car faster. Indication is that it does.
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:48 AM   #98
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Default The Facelifted Civic Type R Finally Made It To America - Here's What Changed

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The current-generation Honda Civic Type R has been around since 2017. It caused a ruckus when it first arrived, but like all things hyped, the frenzy surrounding the Civic Type R died down. Expectations among fans and customers were satisfied and it wouldnít be until Honda gave the Civic Type R a mid-cycle refresh that the hype once again started to rise to a crescendo.

Well, that time has come. Honda unveiled the updated Civic Type R at the 2020 Chicago Auto Show with a few notable upgrades on its bodywork and its mechanical components.



What Changed for the 2020 Honda Civic Type R?

On the surface, the Civic Type R still looks like a proper boy-racer. There are some updates, sure, but unless youíre an eagle-eyed observer, thereís a chance that you might miss them.

The front grille, for example, is slightly bigger than it was in the current model. Thereís no doubt that Honda made that move to help feed more air to the Type Rís 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine. The other significant change ó itís more of an addition ó in the Type Rís exterior is the color itís wearing. Itís called Boost Blue, and itís all-new for the facelifted Civic Type R.

The interior also benefits from a proper upgrade. The steering wheel is updated and one of those updates is the Alcantara material thatís wrapped around it. The gear shifter is also new with shorter throws and, in terms of tech updates, the facelifted Civic Type R now boasts Honda Sensing, a suite of driver-assistance systems.

Mechanical changes are found in the not-so-sexy places of the Civic Type R.

Those of you were expecting a power bump from the aforementioned turbo-four engine will be disappointed to know that the facelifted Civic Type Rís turbo-four will still produce 306 horsepower and 295 pound-feet of torque. The good news is that even if output remains the same, there are plenty of surrounding upgrades that should make the Civic Type R more enjoyable to drive. Most of the changes can be found in the hot hatchís suspension setup.

2020 Honda Civic Type R specifications

Engine 2.0-liter turbocharged i-VTEC four-cylinder

Horsepower 306 HP @ 6,500 RPM

Torque 295 LB-FT @ 7,000 RPM


Transmission 6-Speed Manual

Weight 3,117 Lbs

Fuel economy city/highway/combined 22 / 28 / 25

0 to 60 mph 5.7 seconds

Top Speed 169 mph

The facelifted Civic Type R now comes with stiffer rear bushings that should provide better overall rip on the front. The hot hatchís dampers have also been upgraded to create a more comfortable ride, even if youíre going balls-to-the-wall with the pocket rocket. Modifications to the carís steering and front suspension components should give future owners a more nuanced feel of the carís overall steering. These arenít sexy upgrades and they probably wonít make any headlines, but, rest assured, the facelifted Civic Type R should be better than the current model in more ways than one.



Honda has yet to reveal pricing and availability details for the facelifted Civic Type R. Judging by the frenzy the model created when it first came out three years ago, expect Honda to tread carefully on how it wants to price and distribute the updated hot hatch. It did hint at a late winter timetable so that could be sometime around March 2020. As a basis, pricing for the 2019 Honda Civic Type R came up to $36,595, including the $895 destination charge.


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Old 02-08-2020, 05:56 AM   #99
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Love boost blue..As Stern would say Yeah Baby
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:40 AM   #100
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Blue and two piece rotors is a nice upgrade.
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