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Old 01-09-2018, 10:49 PM   #151
SteveAustin
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Hey, y'all, a data point,

I'm a bike roadracer (the drag-your-knee kind, WERA 147, ASMA 47, CVMA 97). I've been clutchless upshifting (and in a GP-pattern shiftrod setup) for quite some time (25+ years).

Modern 'quickshifter' setups cut spark (sometimes fuel, also) for ~1ms to unload the gears and let them spin up (like the sync does in the car tranny). Using the quickshifter is done at WOT (or nearly so), it feels like you've driven over a small bridge expansion joint, and you hear an instant change in engine aural pitch (exhaust note).

Yes, the bike rotating parts are smaller and less massive/smaller moment, but then again, we are upshifting (on a 600) at about 15,000 RPM... and ~130 MPH in a 5-6 upshift on a long straight, like at Miller or a track like Willow. 1000's shift a little later/faster speeds, depending on gearing (meaning sprocket choices).

On my last computer, I've got a spreadsheet I built with 2Hz GPS samples of position/heading for dozens of race laps at various tracks. I was able to calculate the area under the curve, and the starting/finish speeds for many 'straights'. Quickshifters (shifting without clutches) resulted (this is a bike with a bike's HP-to-mass ratio) about 5MPH and a tenth or two faster (depends on the number of upshifts and the length of the straight), a couple of bike lengths.

This is enough for every club-level roadracer to have a quickshifter as mandatory equipment. It'll add up over the course of a 7 or 8-lap race (4 laps for the Perimeter course at Miller - that's a freaking long lap) to a pretty big gap.

Bike racing uses the clutch for downshifting/feathering power in while trying to outbrake the other guy; we have a back-torque limiting 'slipper' clutch to let us bang downshifts into a corner without stepping the rear (oversteer leading to a lowside crash) which can be defeated by manually operating the clutch. The other use of the clutch is, of course, launching when the green flag goes up.

Yes, it's not a car, nor a WRX transmission. But it is a datapoint that the clutchless upshift probably doesn't hurt your transmission much.

FWIW, my old '78 Chevy K-10 had a Tremec 3-speed (yes, a three-on-the-tree), and I would downshift into 1st as I approached stops. I blew the 1-2 synch ring in that after about 11 years of ownership (the last three years I owned it, I had a Muncie 117mm 4-speed in it). That's a datapoint for the guys who say don't force the tranny into 1st while still moving (and yeah, who really knows what went on in that old Tremec?).
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Last edited by SteveAustin; 01-09-2018 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:10 AM   #152
Abismo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAustin View Post
...
Yeah we are not arguing that its possible, just pointless.

Racing it could make sense I guess, but in a modern transmission being used on a car to probably just get somewhere.... why?
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:36 AM   #153
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Dunno why you'd do it on the street in a car. Practicing for those trackdays?

Because we all want to win the trackday
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:57 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAustin View Post
On my last computer, I've got a spreadsheet I built with 2Hz GPS samples of position/heading for dozens of race laps at various tracks.
2Hz GPS samples.

phhhhsssssttttttt

I've got a spreadsheet with 2.75Hz samples, and the mouse is shaped like a shifter and I don't even use a clutch to double click stuff.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:28 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abismo View Post
Yeah we are not arguing that its possible, just pointless.

Racing it could make sense I guess, but in a modern transmission being used on a car to probably just get somewhere.... why?
'Cause it's my fookin car and I can. Jeezus you guys are like a bunch of old ladies. Oh my you're doing something I don't.....why aren't you like me???? get over it.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:37 PM   #156
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Default Can't stand the way 1St and 2nd gear feels on my 2016 WRX!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tramp View Post
'Cause it's my fookin car and I can. Jeezus you guys are like a bunch of old ladies. Oh my you're doing something I don't.....why aren't you like me???? get over it.


You sure cry a lot for us just having a discussion. Ask a legitimate question, you get all pissy.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:29 PM   #157
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'Cause it's my fookin car and I can. Jeezus you guys are like a bunch of old ladies. Oh my you're doing something I don't.....why aren't you like me???? get over it.
But, but, but, but people who had no idea what you were talking about 48 hours already know everything about it and horrible what you're doing is. Sure, you've been doing it for multiple decades with no issue, but these guys just heard about it yesterday. Obviously, they are the authority.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:12 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abismo View Post
You sure cry a lot for us just having a discussion. Ask a legitimate question, you get all pissy.
I simply (because the details would likely confuse) describe how I drive my car (over decades w/o issue)and become inundated by internet pedants. I don't have to explain nor justify why nor did I advocate anyone else doing it. Ya gonna go over to jalopnik and start a thread about it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
But, but, but, but people who had no idea what you were talking about 48 hours already know everything about it and horrible what you're doing is. Sure, you've been doing it for multiple decades with no issue, but these guys just heard about it yesterday. Obviously, they are the authority.
Never was any good at heeding well meaning advice. Why change now?
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Old 01-26-2018, 11:49 PM   #159
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I didn't read the full thread just the first page, so not sure if this was discussed already. It could be your not using the twin disk correctly? I had a hard time converting my habits to the new twin disk. I was driving a fully built 04 wrx/sti block/wrx JDM heads with a JDM v7 sti transmission and an ACT 6 puck clutch, a lot more grabby and you didn't need to fully press the clutch pedal to the floor, it grabbed when it grabbed which was 1/4 throw in the pedal! I DD that car and it always never seemed to wear the disk. The 16' WRX twin disk was a breeze to drive slowly, but if your trying to drive quickly it doesn't respond well to fast shifts. It is a horrible clutch in my opinion, as far as OEM goes. Just doesn't last long at all.
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Old 01-27-2018, 03:06 AM   #160
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throwing a pile of parts at the shifter assembly is totally idiotic, that includes "short shifters". the syncros need friction to work, that friction happens when the gear lube is wiped off of them. this takes time. tossing parts at the shifter assembly doesnt decrease the time it takes the syncros to work, all it does is give you more shift effort and increase the odds of grabbing the wrong gear. if you are grinding gears you are shifting too fast. subaru transmissions will never shift as good as some others. the front differential is in the transmission and the ring and pinion need high pressure additives like any other hypoid gear does. those high pressure additives make it harder for syncros to do their work and the extra viscosity of the gear oil only makes it worse.

cn: quit trying to fix an issue that cant be fixed and learn how to drive.
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Old 01-27-2018, 11:15 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
throwing a pile of parts at the shifter assembly is totally idiotic, that includes "short shifters". the syncros need friction to work, that friction happens when the gear lube is wiped off of them. this takes time. tossing parts at the shifter assembly doesnt decrease the time it takes the syncros to work, all it does is give you more shift effort and increase the odds of grabbing the wrong gear. if you are grinding gears you are shifting too fast. subaru transmissions will never shift as good as some others. the front differential is in the transmission and the ring and pinion need high pressure additives like any other hypoid gear does. those high pressure additives make it harder for syncros to do their work and the extra viscosity of the gear oil only makes it worse.

cn: quit trying to fix an issue that cant be fixed and learn how to drive.
I second this ^

I was annoyed with this issue when I first got the car also. Everyone suggested new shifter plates, bushings, shift stops, other short throw shifter kits BUT I stayed stock and never changed a thing.

I'm about to clock 2,000 miles on the odometer and the car shifts so much smoother now. Yes its not the best shifting car however after being in it for almost two months now the mechanical components have "worn in" and I learned the quirky nature of the car. It's all about finding the sweet spot for the car. When I hit the sweet spot for my 1-2 shift the car shifts like butter (No grinding, no jerking).

Once in a while when I'm rushing I'll let out the clutch too fast and cause a rough shift but it is by far nothing like what I experience fresh off the dealers lot and nothing like what people are explaining.

Instead of wasting money and throwing mods at the car please take the time to learn it or else you'll become the center of those "driver mod" jokes.
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:52 PM   #162
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As stated many times before, it s not the parts, it s the ECU programming and the EPA BS causing the RPM s to stay up instead of dropping as soon as you are off gas and on clutch. I spoke with a dealer owner on this an he stated Subaru is aware and doesn t care because of above reason. I personally came out of a 911 and can see the issue clearly with the WRX. And many others with experience and knowledge know what s not right. Not that you don t adapt as stated above but just not a highlight of the WRX.
Not much throwing money will do UNLESS those with ECU tunes correct it. I have heard different opinions about that (from Cobb sales people).
PS/ If you are talking about grinding gears you are on another topic.
I am referring to 1-2 shifts. Nothing wrong with the car from 2-1 if you are not trying to do what it s not designed to do.

Last edited by cerbomark; 01-27-2018 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 01-27-2018, 01:29 PM   #163
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It's called rev-hang, it was implemented for emissions control reason and the WRX is far away from the first car to have that. Look online and you'll see people with Evos, 2/3 Series Bimmers, Mustangs, etc. all complaining about rev hang. If you can't deal with it you need to work on shifting.
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:45 PM   #164
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Yes you can work on smoothing it out but that still doesn t make for the best feel or design as far as everything, minus the emission thing. If this wasn t true there wouldn t be so many not liking the feel as you stated.
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Old 01-27-2018, 08:31 PM   #165
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My car is pushing 50K miles and the shifting has loosened up considerably. Works much better than when new. Drive more.
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Old 01-29-2018, 12:29 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
throwing a pile of parts at the shifter assembly is totally idiotic, that includes "short shifters". the syncros need friction to work, that friction happens when the gear lube is wiped off of them. this takes time. tossing parts at the shifter assembly doesnt decrease the time it takes the syncros to work, all it does is give you more shift effort and increase the odds of grabbing the wrong gear. if you are grinding gears you are shifting too fast. subaru transmissions will never shift as good as some others. the front differential is in the transmission and the ring and pinion need high pressure additives like any other hypoid gear does. those high pressure additives make it harder for syncros to do their work and the extra viscosity of the gear oil only makes it worse.

cn: quit trying to fix an issue that cant be fixed and learn how to drive.
exactly
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:00 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by turbotype View Post
So I changed out the factory fill today in my 2015 Rex and so far I am very pleased with the results. The car has the following trans/shifter related parts.

- Kartboy short throw shifter
- Kartboy shift cable bearing
- Perrin Shift Stop gizmo
- Heavy stainless steel shift knob, though I have OEM one on right now
- Group N transmission mount (020)
- Whiteline Gearbox Positive Shift Kit (polyurethane crossmember bushings)
- Uncle Scotty's Cocktail (V3)
- Performed a clutch bleed

Drain plug eased out smoothly with a 1/2'' Snap Op breaker bar. No need for pipe over the breaker bar. I let the trans drain for a good half hour, maybe 45 minutes. The fluid did not look burnt and didn't have that goofy almond smell that cooked gear oil smells like. It had a light sulphury odor and was light gray in color. The magnetic drain plug had a good 1/8" of debris stuck to it, though I could not make individual shards of metal. Looked like normal manual transmission goo to me. Smooth easy job and nothing out of the ordinary to note.

For the fill, I used USC. Yep, that same old gunk that's tried and true on the old 5 speed, but not on this transmission. I figured what the hell. I dumped the concoction into the crunchbox, took it for a light throttle spin and brought it back to the garage and topped her off. Right off the bat the trans felt different. I went to engage reverse and clicked right into gear. Usually it requires a little tug. Going first to second felt better. Not perfect, but not tight like it was. No clunk from the trans either, just the rear, but that's another issue altogether. 2nd to 3rd is like butter, but it pretty much has been. 3rd to 4th shifting very fast (But still lifting) there is zero grind. 5th and 6th are the same IE smooth. My car has the Group N trans mount and since switching to it, I gained some NVH. Since the fluid swap, I don't hear the trans nearly as much. Will have to wait for cooler temps and see if it gets noisy. Doesn't bother me either way though. Overall the difference is night and day in regards to notchyness and crunching. Its good now, it really is. It still doesn't feel like a proper STI transmission, but it never will. For a cable actuated trans though, it feels excellent. I hope it stays this way. Will be putting some miles on the USC and see how it holds up. Also will have to wait and see if USC plays nice with carbon synchronizers over the long term.


PS. It goes into first at 20+ mph too. Not a regular practice of mine, I assure you. But I figure if you going to test something you may as well do it right. A rev match at 20+ mph and it slides right in into gear with no complaints.
Turbotype, any update on the Uncle Scotty's cocktail in your subie after putting in some time?

I'm approaching this issue now, and after reading this whole thread, this seems to have been the most verifiable advice that has come out of it, save for the various mods, which I have already done.
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:44 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Floody420 View Post
Turned off the "hill assist." Some people will die arguing that it doesn't mean ****. I found that it's 10 times better.

Not sure if that has been covered already.
what does hill assist have to do with shifting from 1st to 2nd on a flat road?
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:50 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thwrightstuff View Post
Turbotype, any update on the Uncle Scotty's cocktail in your subie after putting in some time?

I'm approaching this issue now, and after reading this whole thread, this seems to have been the most verifiable advice that has come out of it, save for the various mods, which I have already done.
Looking back I think I would still consider the USC experiment a success. It made a very noticeable difference in the quality of shifting (though it was never perfect) as the cocktail and synchronizers got along a lot better than they did with the factory fill. If I recall, the transmission did get a little crunchy again after about 10000 miles on the cocktail, which I think is to be expected as the fluid shears and breaks down. All that said, I would recommend you at least try it if you have the same issues as I did. Just remember that Subaru may frown upon such a thing if they ever open up your trans for warranty service and see that blue Redline gunk in there.

On a side note, I ended up trading that 2015 in for a 2018 after ~ 3 years. Whatever change Subaru made to the transmission between those 3 years made a HUGE difference in the shifting quality. I have not touched the trans in this new car (not even the shifter or bushings) and it shifts as smoothly as my old STI IE 2 finger casual shifts while daily driving and no crunches, grinds or missed shifts while driving like a moron.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:58 AM   #170
thwrightstuff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbotype View Post
Looking back I think I would still consider the USC experiment a success. It made a very noticeable difference in the quality of shifting (though it was never perfect) as the cocktail and synchronizers got along a lot better than they did with the factory fill. If I recall, the transmission did get a little crunchy again after about 10000 miles on the cocktail, which I think is to be expected as the fluid shears and breaks down. All that said, I would recommend you at least try it if you have the same issues as I did. Just remember that Subaru may frown upon such a thing if they ever open up your trans for warranty service and see that blue Redline gunk in there.

On a side note, I ended up trading that 2015 in for a 2018 after ~ 3 years. Whatever change Subaru made to the transmission between those 3 years made a HUGE difference in the shifting quality. I have not touched the trans in this new car (not even the shifter or bushings) and it shifts as smoothly as my old STI IE 2 finger casual shifts while daily driving and no crunches, grinds or missed shifts while driving like a moron.
Hmm good to know. However, if it only lasted 10k miles before breaking down, I think doing straight redline or a 50/50 redline 75W90NS and lightweight might be the better option and less likely to breakdown over time and thus less likely to damage components when that breakdown does happen.

I do recall driving a 2018 several months back when Subaru tried to "upgrade me at no cost", *cough* bull****, and determined that it wasn't significantly better than my 2017 enough to justify the upgrade. I've only ground maybe twice in 2 years of ownership ad my only complaint is just the almost excessive notchiness of my shifter, but never to the point it causes any real issue. My main complaint is getting into first and reverse from a dead stop.

Thanks for the response on a dead thread, man. Much appreciated
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