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Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack |
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01-08-2009, 12:55 AM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 170336
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Moorpark, California 93021
Vehicle:06 Impreza 2.5i CGM |
Alignment Issue, Help Would be Awesome!
Hello everyone, I recently had some new Mach V springs put on my 06 2.5i. At the same time, just got a new pair of shoes. 17'' Used Rota Boosts in Steel Gray sitting on 235/40 FK452's. Anyways, I was driving down the freeway at about seventy and approach a lumbering dump truck. I was going faster than him and as I entered his blind spot, he changes lanes into me. I reacted by braking hard and swerving off the freeway into the middle dirt area (lots of debris). Long story short, my alignment is shot to hell and the car loves to vear to the right. I need a quick fix before my new tires get raped.
Well, I took it today to Big Brand tires and they are charging me the run of the mill, 80 dollar 4-wheel alignment and I was perfectly content with that. I then get a phone call saying that I need camber bolts in the front because it was not lookin good from their pov. They were charging me 145$ for parts and labor when I knew that the parts could be had for 45$ alone... I did not want to bother with it and agreed. Now I get the car back and the car still moves to the right, albeit not nearly as much. Before the alignment, my Front Left was at -1.5 camber, as the Front Right sat at -1.6. Caster is fine, and toe was .21 left front and .27 right. My rear right was fine all around and rear left was sitting at 0.18 toe. Now everything is supposedly at factory setting but I was wondering if the meandoring to the right is dangerous or am I just being paranoid? Just in case it's helpful, here is my current alignment: Front: -0.2 (L) -0.3 (R) Camber 2.5 (L) 2.9 (R) Caster 0 (L) 0 (R) Toe The Rear Left reads as 0 Toe as well, meaning it's within spec.
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01-08-2009, 02:12 AM | #2 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 2.5RS Wagon Regal Blue Pearl |
Oh, they raped you. Your alignment before the alignment was arguably better.
They should have left the camber alone and just zeroed the toe. Also, I have this HORRIBLE fear that they replaced your OEM upper camber bolts with the aftermarket bolts. That's a recipe for a BAD crash. PLEASE take a picture of the two bolts that hold the strut to the knuckle (kind of behind the brake rotor) as soon as possible so that we can see if they were that dumb. |
01-08-2009, 08:16 AM | #3 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:2005 WRX CGM |
Wow, the screwed you hard. Camber is not causing a pulling issue unless one side was way off from the other. And check the bolts like williaty said to...this could be very bad. Might be epic fail worthy.
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01-08-2009, 08:24 PM | #4 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 55252
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: i know, i regret it too
Vehicle:* pullup bar * |
damn take it to another alignment place and send the first ppl the bill to get your moneys back
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01-09-2009, 01:42 AM | #5 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 170336
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Moorpark, California 93021
Vehicle:06 Impreza 2.5i CGM |
what "other place" would you guys recommend? This place was recommended by my dealer and if they did such a "bad job" then I dunno where else to look? I'll check the upper camber bolt tomorrow to see if it's still OEM or not, what exactly should I do?
What can happen from them having aftermarket bolts? Also, the whole reason I did the alignment was to stop the movement to the right - what else could do that? |
01-09-2009, 01:46 AM | #6 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 2.5RS Wagon Regal Blue Pearl |
The pull to the right was caused by toe. If the idiots replaced the stock upper bolt, which is a camber bolt, with an aftermarket bolt the aftermarket bolt is too small for that hole and can allow the knuckle to slip. This will only happen to the outside tire in a hard corner. The knuckle will slip towards positive camber, fatally reducing front end grip. You will slide straight off into whatever hard object is on the outside of the turn.
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01-09-2009, 02:10 AM | #7 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 170336
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Moorpark, California 93021
Vehicle:06 Impreza 2.5i CGM |
Are these the same type of hard corners that could be potentially encountered in Daily Driving? Were the camber bolts even necessary in the first place?
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01-09-2009, 02:29 AM | #8 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 170336
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Moorpark, California 93021
Vehicle:06 Impreza 2.5i CGM |
Here's the thing... the page Big Brand tires printed out was specified for an Impreza/Outback Sport MY02-07, sedan and it said "except turbo" which I imagine meaning it's the non-turbo.
The specified range for camber in front was -0.5° to 0.0 for both sides. I looked in my manual but it does not give ranges, but it says this exactly: Camber Front: -0°15', whatever that means. So in order for them to get it back to -0.2 Front Left and -0.3 Front Right, they had to use Camber Bolts? That does not really make sense to me, especially if the manual said it should be at -.15 out of factory? Last edited by Foxhound; 01-09-2009 at 02:37 AM. |
01-09-2009, 02:36 AM | #9 | |||||
Scooby Guru
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 2.5RS Wagon Regal Blue Pearl |
Quote:
I'm posting the reply to your PM here as well: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Now the x-factor here is why they thought you needed to have aftermarket camber bolts. If they actually knew what they were doing and properly used the stock camber bolts to dial out as much negative camber as possible and they weren't able to get any closer to 0 than -1.5, you have something BADLY bent because that means your "neutral" setting would be about 3* off from where it should be. That would be hit you in the face with a trout obvious looking at it. Even more improbable is the idea that the bendage would be perfectly balanced on both sides. I'm 99% sure the guys at the shop didn't realize that the top stock bolt was a camber bolt. My bet is that, when you had the springs installed, whoever did it gave you the max negative camber they could, which is a good thing. -1.5* is exactly what you'd expect if someone had done this. So the idiots at the shop looked at the alignment computer, saw it was out of spec, and didn't realize they could just adjust it. They then removed the stock bolts and installed the aftermarket camber bolts. If they swapped out the lower bolts, you're safe, but it's just a stupid, stupid waste of money to have done it that way. If they swapped out the top bolt, which is what you're supposed to do on a car that has no stock camber bolt, then it's very dangerous. The picture below compares the stock camber bolt to an aftermarket camber bolt. You can see that the aftermarket bolt is 3mm smaller than the stock bolt. That means there's 3mm of air in the joint just waiting for the bolt to slip. That's BAD thing and is DEFINITELY unsafe to drive. Now, just to give equal time to all possibilities, there's a really, really small chance that you did do the improbable and manage to badly bend both sides exactly the same and the guys at the shop just added the aftermarket camber bolt to the lower hole. If that's the case, it's still a bad idea. You just applied a band-aid to a broken leg with the bone sticking out through the skin. If something is so badly bent as to require 2 sets of camber bolts, you really need to fix the broken part rather than ignoring it. However, this is really, really unlikely. |
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01-09-2009, 05:44 PM | #10 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 170336
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Moorpark, California 93021
Vehicle:06 Impreza 2.5i CGM |
I looked at the positioning of the bolts today, the smaller/shorter bolt is on bottom, so I am assuming they left the stock bolt up top and replaced the lower bolts.
I am going to call them and tell them that this was not required, but I am wondering why they said it was... did they not know that the top one was adjustable? I remember the guy telling me that they needed the aftermarket bolts to adjust it. I hate the fact that even trusting the dealer with alignment shop suggestions is not even reliable . |
01-09-2009, 05:48 PM | #11 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 2.5RS Wagon Regal Blue Pearl |
Please, just take a picture of the two bolts in place so we can actually see what's going on.
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01-09-2009, 06:04 PM | #12 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 164171
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: OC
Vehicle:08 EvoX <3 Wagon rear prodrive plate frame |
many people here should sign up for the robispec alignment and corner balancing day at HBSPEED........
or keep gettin pooped on and pay 50-80 bucks on alignments that came our worse than before... |
01-09-2009, 06:12 PM | #13 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 2.5RS Wagon Regal Blue Pearl |
Um, spam much?
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01-09-2009, 06:43 PM | #14 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 65623
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Walnut,CA
Vehicle:2005 05 Varis WRX 95 LS400 |
camber bolt should ALWAYS be installed on the top hole.
if the car pulls to right (or left) it means when they were setting up the car the steering wheel wasn't completely straight so the thrust angle was off. Even it show 0 toe, when your steering is pointing straight the wheels are not. Go back and tell them to realign it or go some where else. it's not about spending XX amount of dollar and you'll get good alignment. It's about understanding how alignment works and understand your own car. |
01-09-2009, 06:55 PM | #15 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 2.5RS Wagon Regal Blue Pearl |
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01-09-2009, 06:57 PM | #16 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 65623
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Walnut,CA
Vehicle:2005 05 Varis WRX 95 LS400 |
^^^ that's what i said...
let me make it more clear. aftermarket or oem camber should never be installed on the bottom hole. front camber bolt should be oem. rear you can use aftermarket. |
01-09-2009, 06:58 PM | #17 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 164171
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: OC
Vehicle:08 EvoX <3 Wagon rear prodrive plate frame |
Front bolts on bottom holes only.........
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01-09-2009, 07:13 PM | #18 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:2005 WRX CGM |
No, you can use aftermarket in the bottom hole, just NOT the top hole. In other words you leave the top bolt the OEM camber bolt and then place the aftermarket in the bottom hole.
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01-09-2009, 07:18 PM | #19 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 65623
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
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Vehicle:2005 05 Varis WRX 95 LS400 |
^^ double camber bolt is bad juju in my books.
let's keep this simple camber bolt guide sticky http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2#post21166732 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1590221 |
01-09-2009, 08:38 PM | #20 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:2005 2.5RS Wagon Regal Blue Pearl |
Quote:
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01-09-2009, 08:49 PM | #21 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:2005 WRX CGM |
Quote:
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01-11-2009, 05:00 PM | #22 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 170336
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Moorpark, California 93021
Vehicle:06 Impreza 2.5i CGM |
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01-11-2009, 05:14 PM | #23 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:2005 WRX CGM |
And they put the aftermarket bolt in the top hole. Not good dude, not good at all.
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01-11-2009, 05:51 PM | #24 | |
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Member#: 15359
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Quote:
-Duncan |
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01-11-2009, 06:06 PM | #25 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 170336
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Moorpark, California 93021
Vehicle:06 Impreza 2.5i CGM |
Is there a notice that I can use to show these guys? Ill could tell them "putting the aftermarket bolt on the top causes problems" but they will prolly question that and proof or a notice would be nice. If they did not save the original bolts, it's my obligation to replace them or theirs? The funny thing is, my Subaru dealer recommended these guys...
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