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Old 12-19-2016, 04:50 PM   #51
darkstarmoto
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^^ well that's the thing I can't...only taking a stab at what 'might' be an issue for some. Reading the other thread now I see member chinyue already thought of all this and created a go around making my babble rather useless.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:35 AM   #52
obsessionz
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darkstarmoto are you saying if I was to swap out my stock angle sensors for 2015 sti angle sensors this will solve my issue?

Also will this be direct plug and play with all my cars ecu etc?
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:03 AM   #53
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^^ No, not at all.
See post #20, I think mrsaturn7085 has it right....there is no SAS that has a different 'output' that corrects this issue (if you have it). But in chinyue's post here he addresses what I thought was the difference in degree output and he simply scaled up the output to equal what the SAS was outputting before the rack change. This apparently solved his issue, granted he's working on a Forester but the basic function of the SAS is the same. In very basic electrical terms the SAS is just a rheostat that has a 0 center reading and increases as the # of turns in either direction goes up. So he rigged up a way to add resistance in either direction to fake out the ECU.

I see no reason why Subaru would have had different SAS's for different models. It could be as simple as they added a resistor to the output wiring back to the ECU to make the readings right, or those models have different programming which makes more sense to me from a manufacturing standpoint since those cars were at the time getting special tuning flashed to the from the factory anyways. Software is cheap...and keeps the other parts universal. Again....just my random thoughts on it.

Last edited by darkstarmoto; 12-20-2016 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:21 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkstarmoto View Post
^^ No, not at all.
See post #20, I think mrsaturn7085 has it right....there is no SAS that has a different 'output' that corrects this issue (if you have it). But in chinyue's post here he addresses what I thought was the difference in degree output and he simply scaled up the output to equal what the SAS was outputting before the rack change. This apparently solved his issue, granted he's working on a Forester but the basic function of the SAS is the same. In very basic electrical terms the SAS is just a rheostat that has a 0 center reading and increases as the # of turns in either direction goes up. So he rigged up a way to add resistance in either direction to fake out the ECU.

I see no reason why Subaru would have had different SAS's for different models. It could be as simple as they added a resistor to the output wiring back to the ECU to make the readings right, or those models have different programming which makes more sense to me from a manufacturing standpoint since those cars were at the time getting special tuning flashed to the from the factory anyways. Software is cheap...and keeps the other parts universal. Again....just my random thoughts on it.
Your logic is sound. I agreed to the same consensus in the other thread, but my opinion was that it came down to a bad SAS on some cars. It's the only way I could explain how the majority don't have the issue, but few do. It was originally thought that maybe it just needed to be reset as is recommended in the Subaru manual after an alignment on these cars, but KManz went to a dealership and got it properly reset to no avail. I just haven't seen or heard of anyone taking my recommendation to replace one for testing. Understandable too, they're expensive buggers.
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Old 12-21-2016, 04:41 PM   #55
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Not saying your wrong but I'm not so sure about them being bad, wouldn't/shouldn't you get a C0071 code regardless of changing the rack if that was true? According to FSM the symptoms of a failed SAS is the ABS & VDC wouldn't operate at all. Now if you had let the steering wheel move during rack installation or the rack wasn't pre-centered before the column link was secured the re-centering process is a good step in the right direction but they do apparently have an allowable deviation from the sensor of 5 or less.
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Old 12-22-2016, 01:42 PM   #56
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I've been having the same problem 08 STI w/15 rack, I installed the new rack with in 1 week of purchasing the car along with a ton of other upgrades so I though it was normal and that the VDC was just agressive. Any thing other than commuting I just turn it off. I'm interested in if anyone will find a fix
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:47 AM   #57
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It's been a while since I've thought about this issue; I don't drive the car as much these days, so it's not at the forefront of my conscious, but seeing this thread got me thinking again.

Noximus pointing out that this isn't happening on every car that has swapped racks, so I'm wondering if there is a commonality between them. I'm pretty much leaning towards this being a steering angle sensor caused issue, but again, why isn't every swapped car experiencing this?

Members who are having this issue: what installs have you performed that may have directly affected the SAS?

- '15 rack (obviously)
- aftermarket steering rack bushings (outside of the '15 rack install)
- steering wheel change

I've done all three, and am perhaps maybe thinking I somehow messed up the SAS, especially during the rack bushing install where I had to unlink the steering input column. Anything where I could have turned the wheel too far and maybe damaged the SAS ribbon? Speculation here, nothing more, but these are things that bear investigation.

The issue is annoying, but nothing more, as the car drives OK on a daily basis (and turning TC off alleviates it). My next troubleshooting effort would be to take the plunge and replace the SAS, but I don't like the idea of spending $300+ on something that might not work.

Last edited by KManZ; 12-23-2016 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:33 PM   #58
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Default NewBie Question on Suspension / Axle

Hi folks, I have been reading this forum for a few years and using the advice to get me out of my DIY jams.

I have a suspension/axle issue that looks like this thread is the closest I can get to the issue -- so I apologize in advance for sort of cluttering up this thread.

OK

I have a 2008 Impreza Outback Sport.
Just replaced:
-struts & strut mounts (all 4)
-rotors
-sway bar end links
-tie rods (inner and outer)

-Removed both front control arms (this is where I got into trouble):

--machined out the old round 2 3/8" bushings and the bolt through bushings
--replaced these with red polyurethane bushings (without outer metal sleeves)
--replaced ball joint.

First Problem:

On driver's side, I could not get the installed control arm slot to "reach" the ball joint stem that was on the rotor housing.
It was shy 1/4-1/2" (yes, I had the ball joint stem pushed as inward as possible).
-So, I removed the strut bolts, and bingo the ball joint went into the slot on the control arm.

THEN:
I could not get the rotor housing knuckle to rotate back up to the two lower strut bolts!
It seems like the axle is the hold up by not "flexing" or "giving" or pushing back into the transfer case to allow me to push the upper knuckle back to the two lower strut bolts.
-looking from below, I note the axle boot closest to the transfer case is very stretched out....
-I have not attached the sway bar end links yet, AND I also removed the tie rod from the knuckle....STILL NO DICE.

-I also tried jacking the rotor assembly and moving the steering wheel.

SO, I went to the passenger side to see if I could learn anything from that side to use back on the driver's side problem.

THIS is where it gets worse...

As I was jacking up the rotor on pass side (I had my son standing on the brakes), the rotor fell off the jack and YANKED OUT THE AXLE from the pass transfer case!

I think I can get the axle back into the transfer case, if I re-remove the ball joint (to allow me to pull the knuckle away from the car and give me room to pull the axle back, then re insert).

I do not want to take the axle nut from the hub and remove the axle completely (unless I have to).

-Also, at the end of the axle that was yanked out there is a C -Ring that appears to be stretched out but still on the end (about 5mm's from the end of the axle and in a machined groove -- the ends of the C Ring are not touching but are separated by about 5-7 mm's).

QUESTIONS:

-Is the C Ring an issue now? (did it get mis-shapened or bent when the axle was yanked out?)

-Can I get the axle back into the transfer case without removing the axle completely from the hub?

-Do I need to check for any additional damage that might have been caused by the yanking of the axle?

-HOW, HOW do I get that driver's side knuckle reattached to the damn two lower strut bolts?

ANY HELP WILL SAVE ME FROM HAVING TO DRAG MY HOT MESS TO THE MECHANIC TO FIX MY STUPIDITY!!
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:13 PM   #59
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Yeah, sorry man, this isn't the thread for your issue, as it is completely unrelated to the discussion at hand.

Try starting a new thread in the Suspension forum, as you're bound to get some help with your woes.
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Old 12-25-2016, 04:40 PM   #60
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I think you are right
I am gonna search "axle popped out of transmission" and see what that gets me.
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:04 PM   #61
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Hopefully one day at least by 2018 this gets solved lol

Ill check back soon in the near future!

Last edited by obsessionz; 12-29-2016 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:49 PM   #62
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Default Swapped in a 2015 steering rack... now chasing problems

What is the success rate for this swap? My steering rack just failed and this seems like a good time to upgrade. Will the rack bolt straight up or are there other parts that need to be purchased to make this work on a 2011 GR sti?

Last edited by iRishman514; 03-20-2017 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by iRishman514 View Post
What is the success rate for this swap? My steering rack just failed and this seems like a good time to upgrade. Will the rack bolt straight up or are there other parts that need to be purchased to make this work on a 2011 GR sti?
Everything is a direct bolt-on to GR/GV STIs.

Very high success rate. There are very few here and a couple on IWSTI that have issues with their traction control activating randomly since the install, but nothing to prove it was directly related to the rack. It seems the rack may be bringing out a problem they weren't aware of. With the lack of troubleshooting, it's hard to tell what was the cause. Some people never come back to say they fixed it or not, or if the issue went away.

I personally know many many more people without the issue including myself, than those with. I've been using this rack for over 2 years now on my 2009 STI without any issues at all. It's driven 12 months of the year, saw AutoX, winter driving in Canada including drifting on all traction modes. I've never had the issue these few people have reported.
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Old 04-18-2017, 12:35 PM   #64
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So, an update...

I dropped my car off at a tuner in my area to have them try and diagnose the issue. They ran the car and took readings using the SSM. From what they told me, the SAS had to be reprogrammed because the car was still reading the old ratio. Basically, at full lock, the SAS reported that the wheels were facing 160 degrees.

Now, I thought that the SAS had been reprogrammed the last time I took it in, but I think they only recentered it. The tech basically told me that they ran a program (I assume using the SSM) that had them turn the wheel full lock, then opposite lock, and then points in between until the SAS picked up the turn radius.

- Did this fix the problem? I haven't gotten enough seat time to make a full determination, but I took some hard turns, full throttle, and there was no intrusion by TC/VDC. That's fantastic, for sure!

- On the same token, I can get the system to step in if I start a corner at speed, and then lift off midway. Car bogs down, feels like I'm driving through quicksand, headlights slightly dim. I passed this on to the tech, and he suggests that this is normal behavior because the car senses that I am lifting off in a corner and it's trying to compensate for the subsequent weight transfer. AKA, it's preventing me from supposedly spinning out.

I'm going to take the car back one more time and have them take one more look at this just to verify that this is normal. It probably is, but since I'm not a pro race driver, I don't know exactly what is within "normal" behavior. If it is, I'll report back.

EDIT: took the car back in for a follow-up, and the verdict is that the problem has been resolved. So I'll go out on a limb here and say that if you haven't done so yet, have someone reprogram the Steering Angle Sensor using the Subaru Select Monitor (SSM). I thought it had been done before, but apparently it had not.

Car handles like it should, feels great. Now I know when the nannies will kick in, so there is that.

Last edited by KManZ; 04-18-2017 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:24 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KManZ View Post
So, an update...

I dropped my car off at a tuner in my area to have them try and diagnose the issue. They ran the car and took readings using the SSM. From what they told me, the SAS had to be reprogrammed because the car was still reading the old ratio. Basically, at full lock, the SAS reported that the wheels were facing 160 degrees.

Now, I thought that the SAS had been reprogrammed the last time I took it in, but I think they only recentered it. The tech basically told me that they ran a program (I assume using the SSM) that had them turn the wheel full lock, then opposite lock, and then points in between until the SAS picked up the turn radius.

- Did this fix the problem? I haven't gotten enough seat time to make a full determination, but I took some hard turns, full throttle, and there was no intrusion by TC/VDC. That's fantastic, for sure!

- On the same token, I can get the system to step in if I start a corner at speed, and then lift off midway. Car bogs down, feels like I'm driving through quicksand, headlights slightly dim. I passed this on to the tech, and he suggests that this is normal behavior because the car senses that I am lifting off in a corner and it's trying to compensate for the subsequent weight transfer. AKA, it's preventing me from supposedly spinning out.

I'm going to take the car back one more time and have them take one more look at this just to verify that this is normal. It probably is, but since I'm not a pro race driver, I don't know exactly what is within "normal" behavior. If it is, I'll report back.

EDIT: took the car back in for a follow-up, and the verdict is that the problem has been resolved. So I'll go out on a limb here and say that if you haven't done so yet, have someone reprogram the Steering Angle Sensor using the Subaru Select Monitor (SSM). I thought it had been done before, but apparently it had not.

Car handles like it should, feels great. Now I know when the nannies will kick in, so there is that.
Glad to hear this was resolved. It just didn't make sense for it to be the rack. The only variance in all our different cases was the install method. It makes total sense that first step was missed by some if it was done by via DIY, or an aftermarket shop, or a dealer that didn't follow the SSM procedure. Thank you for following up. Hopefully everyone else with the issue follows up too.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:21 AM   #66
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So is there anyway to calibrate the SAS without going to subaru such as FreeSSM or some other tool?
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:29 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noximus View Post
Glad to hear this was resolved. It just didn't make sense for it to be the rack. The only variance in all our different cases was the install method. It makes total sense that first step was missed by some if it was done by via DIY, or an aftermarket shop, or a dealer that didn't follow the SSM procedure. Thank you for following up. Hopefully everyone else with the issue follows up too.
Today I ordered my2015 steering rack which is to be fitted on my 2011 WRX STI. In order to avoid the described VDC issues I'd like to learn the SSM procedure or the important first step in the DIY. I've read two DIY's on this board but I can't figure out which is this very important step.

Any help is very much appreciated!!
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:00 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godenzoon View Post
Today I ordered my2015 steering rack which is to be fitted on my 2011 WRX STI. In order to avoid the described VDC issues I'd like to learn the SSM procedure or the important first step in the DIY. I've read two DIY's on this board but I can't figure out which is this very important step.

Any help is very much appreciated!!


The shop you choose to do your alignment needs to have a Subaru Select Monitor or capable device that read it. It's not really something the average joe has access to.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:34 PM   #69
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The shop you choose to do your alignment needs to have a Subaru Select Monitor or capable device that read it. It's not really something the average joe has access to.
Thx for your reply Noximus! Do you mean that the average Joe can't do the replacement or that if the problems occur, you need a professional with an SSM or capable device? I was planning to do the replacement together with a (technically skilled) friend and I'm now doing the research to avoid any issues. That's why I fully want to understand the DIY
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:20 PM   #70
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Thx for your reply Noximus! Do you mean that the average Joe can't do the replacement or that if the problems occur, you need a professional with an SSM or capable device? I was planning to do the replacement together with a (technically skilled) friend and I'm now doing the research to avoid any issues. That's why I fully want to understand the DIY


You can most certainly do the part replacement yourself. The potential issue arises when you don't get an alignment done after a new rack, which as you read in the manual is required. I would highly recommend just getting an alignment at a Subaru dealer or Subaru shop who's familiar with the SSM and proper Subaru alignments. But yes, no issues doing the replacement as DIY.
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:28 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KManZ View Post
So, an update...

I dropped my car off at a tuner in my area to have them try and diagnose the issue. They ran the car and took readings using the SSM. From what they told me, the SAS had to be reprogrammed because the car was still reading the old ratio. Basically, at full lock, the SAS reported that the wheels were facing 160 degrees.
Boom!! So the SSM can change the ratio??
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:36 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkstarmoto View Post
Have been watching this thread closely as I want to install the 15 rack as well. Following the issue of the VDC has me wondering. I think KManZ is on to something with this statement.


My take on it is this. The SAS output is in degrees, it is tied to the Yaw Rate & G sensors. Since you have less physical steering input with the faster rack, the SAS is reading less degrees than I think the YRS & GS are experiencing. i.e. Those sensors are feeling a tight turn happening but SAS is saying no not really therefore the VDCCM ECU thinks "oh crap we're having an understeer event" and reacts to correct giving your the intrusive VDC reaction. This reaction by the VDC is probably dependent on throttle position as well.

I think mrsaturn7085 is correct that the SAS is same for all GR models...the difference I think is the VDCCM ECU in models with the 13:1 rack is programmed to receive that data differently. e.g. let's take wobbletops video for instance, the ECU for the normal rack output by the SAS of lets say 90 left is interpreted as 90 BUT with the 13:1 ratio rack making that same left turn becomes an output of a lesser value of lets say 60 going to the ECU. The ECU is programmed to compare the other sensor inputs to determine if it should react...there's probably an allowable ratio in the programming and now we're not in it?? Even though the VDCCM for the GR's is identified differently between the WRX (SM) and the STi (SN) I bet the programming to receive the SAS signal is the same.

I'm wondering if someone who is planning to do this would be able to go to have the SSM hooked up and take a reading at a specific # or turns on the steering wheel (let's say 1 full rotation from center) and get the # of degrees the SAS is outputting, then go back after installing the 13:1 and make same rotation and get SAS output, it "should" be less. According to the FSM getting this measurement should be possible.

Of interest having the SAS reset to 0 also resets the G sensor to 0, showing how tied together they are.

Thoughts? Am I way off base?
I don't have this issue, but I have read the whole thread.

I don't think the quoted text is correct when going to a faster rack ratio. You are now turning the steering wheel LESS for a given side loading, thus NOT understeering.
If you went to a slower rack ratio, then you would need more steering angle to achieve a given side loading, thus the VDC would guess understeer.

With ANY rack ratio, assuming the alignment is correct, the 4 wheels will always have different speeds since that is based on track, wheelbase and turn radius.

I can see damaged sensors being an issue.
I can see worn wheel bearings being an issue.
I can see low tire pressures being an issue.
I can see loose/worn suspension bits being an issue.
I can see needing to center the SAS.

I don't have your magic bullet to resolve the issue, just thinking on things that may have been overlooked.
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:26 PM   #73
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I'm the OP of this thread. Ran back across it today... haven't been checking in as I sold the car in question. Never resolved the issue, new owner didn't care.

I DID also have my SAS calibrated in the exact same manner with the exact same tool as KManZ. Didn't help at all.

Also checked all sensors, all were good. Also checked and double checked and had multiple mechanics check every part and system on the car that could be affecting it. All were working great, none were overly worn or damaged.

Just jumping in to say that having your sensors calibrated by the SSM is NOT a magic bullet...
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:49 AM   #74
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Today my new 2015 rack was installed and now the dashboard lights of the VDC, hill assist and the center differential are on. Hopefully I can do the allignment tomorrow. Does anyone have some additional advice for me about what to do? I'm quite worried to be honest

Last edited by godenzoon; 09-10-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 09-10-2017, 01:09 PM   #75
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Get the code(s) read by the dealer.
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