Toyota going all hybrid by 2010/off shore drilling will not help prices untill 2030

[rallyblues]

According to EPA it would take 22 years from now for the additional drilling to actually affect the prices... at the same time toyota is ready to go all hybrid in 2 years.

What's more important the first PLUG-ins will be available in 2 years as well.

Isn't possible that within 20 years most of us will drive 100-200 mpg plug-in hybrids and another chunk of people pure-electric cars off the grid?

Generating electricity from coals (that we have tons of), nuclear, wind, solar, etc. seems also very feasible.

So do we really need to risk a environmental disaster by drilling off shore?

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[skingfreak]

I'm not sure about the 20 year thing, but i feel my comute would be very 'boring' in a 200mpg plug in hybrid..

And actually, i have been readind some articles stating that the carbon footprint of a plug in, in greater than that of the average car over the same lifetime ~10-15 years.

[hikeeba]

Maybe we can expand off-shore drilling, and then down the road trade the surplus oil for more guns or something.

[themarxist]

I think the whole business about offshore drilling is silly to begin with - the best it's going to do is delay the inevitable oil crunch by a few years, and pump a few more million tons of carbon into the air in the process. It's not fun, but we need to kick the habit sooner rather than later.

[banman]

Originally Posted by skingfreak

I'm not sure about the 20 year thing, but i feel my comute would be very 'boring' in a 200mpg plug in hybrid..

And actually, i have been readind some articles stating that the carbon footprint of a plug in, in greater than that of the average car over the same lifetime ~10-15 years.

"Some articles"? I call BS. It totally depends on what assumptions you make.

[kinkinhood]

Truthfully I'd be all up for it. Despite the point I've grown an attachment to it there have been times I've been pondering selling off the Subaru for a more economically feasible vehicle simply because I've been using my motorcycle for commute and the wrx for hauling stuff, which makes the wrx see about 60 miles of driving a month.

[Ferg]

Oil prices at an all time high and the oil companies want to drill for more oil...that's so weird.

[skingfreak]

Originally Posted by banman

"Some articles"? I call BS. It totally depends on what assumptions you make.

I will try to pull them back up, but this was on my home computer so it may have to wait till later.

I didn't believe it either untill i read the articles, you have to take into consideration how ineffcient it still is to make the batteries, recycle them, the enviormental implications of that, and everything else that goes along with the hybrid components.

Again, i won't base my case off of what i say, i will try to find the articles

[HighWayDrifter]

This aint subliminal
Feel the critical mass approach horizon
Tha pulse of the condemned
Sound off Americas demise
Tha anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Yes I spit fire
Hope lies in the smoldering rubble of empires
Yes back through tha shanties and tha cities remains
Same bodies buried hungry, uh-huh
With different last names, uh-huh
The vultures robbin everyone
Leave nothing but chains
Pick a point here at home
Yes the pictures tha same
Theres a field full of slaves
Some corn and some debt
Theres a ditch full of bodies
Tha check for the rent
Theres a tap, tha phone, tha silence of stone
The numb black screen
That be feelin like home
And the riot be the rhyme of the unheard

[Qcanfixit]

its all a huge ****ing scam.

whoever hasn't figured that out by now should be taken out and shot.

[Captain TinklePee]

Originally Posted by skingfreak

I'm not sure about the 20 year thing, but i feel my comute would be very 'boring' in a 200mpg plug in hybrid.

ugh. WHO CARES.

[misterwaterfallin]

What I always think about when I read stuff like this is, how are we going to race when cars are all hybrid and electric? I guess they will be able to advance the technology to make them fast, but racing an electric car would just be weird

[banman]

Originally Posted by skingfreak

I will try to pull them back up, but this was on my home computer so it may have to wait till later.

I didn't believe it either untill i read the articles, you have to take into consideration how ineffcient it still is to make the batteries, recycle them, the enviormental implications of that, and everything else that goes along with the hybrid components.

Again, i won't base my case off of what i say, i will try to find the articles

How could recycling the batteries make the carbon footprint worse than a conventional car?

And it's not like the batteries are made out of any super-exotic materials. It's predominantly nickel - the incremental cost of extracting an extra few pounds of nickel per car hardly seems likely to make a huge difference.

The much-hyped Hummer vs Prius article had to impose ridiculous handicaps on the Prius to make it even close.

In any case, the study indicting the Prius has been discredited by a number of reliable sources since its appearance early this year. As David Friedman, the research director of the Union of Concerned Scientists' Clean Vehicles program, put it: "This study has been completely contradicted by studies from MIT, Argonne National Laboratory, and Carnegie Mellon's Lifecycle Assessment Group. The reality is hybrids can significantly cut global-warming pollution, reduce energy use, and save drivers thousands at the pump."

Among the many critics of Hummer hugging, Peter Gleick of the Pacific Institute noted that one of the many flaws of the CNW Marketing study is that it is based on fudged figures. As he points out, it assumes a Hummer would travel 379,000 miles in its lifetime and last 35 years, whereas a Prius would only go 109,000 miles and last 12 years. So of course, using these figures, the amount of energy needed to make the Prius is going to come out high on a per-mile basis. (Who knows? In real-world time the Hummer might well have a shorter life because when the owners get bored with their mega-toys and want to dump them, no one may want to buy these gas hogs. Note also that I could've fudged and used that 379,000-mile figure, which would've jacked up the Hummer's lifetime energy use for fuel alone to a value of around $37,000.)

Getting back to the Prius's nickel metal hydride battery, laments about its other environmental iniquities were largely based on reports of environmental devastation from nickel mining in Sudbury, Ontario, where 10 percent of the world's nickel is mined. The problem is that these reports described Sudbury 30 years ago, not today. Yes, nickel mining is a nasty business, but in the 1970s, Sudburians started to clean up the mining mess and make huge strides in rehabilitating their environment. As Canadian Geographic declared recently in giving one Sudbury group an award for restoration, "Once derided for its barren landscape, Sudbury, Ontario, has experienced an environmental makeover since the 1970s. Today, the former industry-blighted moonscape has been transformed."

In any case, Prius batteries, which contain 32 pounds of nickel each, require only a fraction of the world's supply. More than 94 percent of the 1.55 million tons of nickel mined each year is used for stainless steel, alloys, and electroplating. So the batteries for the one million hybrids Toyota has sold so far have required only one percent of the world's annual nickel-mining production. Since the estimates on nickel recycling indicate about 80 percent is being reused, a million Priuses' share of newly mined nickel would really only be about two-tenths of one percent.

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200...en_mailbag.asp

[rallyblues]

Damn, I didn't know will get posted before I finished with the polls.

[rallyblues]

Originally Posted by misterwaterfallin

What I always think about when I read stuff like this is, how are we going to race when cars are all hybrid and electric? I guess they will be able to advance the technology to make them fast, but racing an electric car would just be weird

electric cars kill gasoline powered cars....

can you say INSTANT TORQUE

[rallyblues]

Originally Posted by skingfreak

I'm not sure about the 20 year thing, but i feel my comute would be very 'boring' in a 200mpg plug in hybrid..

And actually, i have been readind some articles stating that the carbon footprint of a plug in, in greater than that of the average car over the same lifetime ~10-15 years.

I'm sort of against hybrids, but pure electric cars are just pure sex.

They wlil make helluva of race cars. You have so much more freedom of weight distribution that engine/drive train problems. Electric motors are very powerful.

[Reciprocity]

A hybrid race car? Well...with a 1147 lb flywheel that can spin up to 58,000 RPM which is...scary.

[kfoote]

Originally Posted by dcrawford

A hybrid race car? Well...with a 1147 lb flywheel that can spin up to 58,000 RPM which is...scary.

There was a short lived project for a hybrid Panos Esparente in 1997-98. It ran a few races, but was shockingly overweight, and not competitive as a result.

[Ferg]

Originally Posted by misterwaterfallin

...but racing an electric car would just be weird

We'll get a taste of that next year in Formula One when they introduce KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) technology. Drivers will be able to access stored energy at the push of a button.

[AliBenn]

Originally Posted by themarxist

I think the whole business about offshore drilling is silly to begin with - the best it's going to do is delay the inevitable oil crunch by a few years, and pump a few more million tons of carbon into the air in the process. It's not fun, but we need to kick the habit sooner rather than later.

agreed.

[jacobsen1]

you do realize the burning coal is horribly dirty and swapping from cars that burn fuel to cars that "plug in", this requiring coal, will actually make things worse on a global warming/pollution level right?

call me when people wake up, get off the NIMBY horse, and start putting wind generators everywhere and solar panels on their roofs.

[rallyblues]

Originally Posted by dcrawford

A hybrid race car? Well...with a 1147 lb flywheel that can spin up to 58,000 RPM which is...scary.

Like a train

[rallyblues]

Originally Posted by jacobsen1

you do realize the burning coal is horribly dirty and swapping from cars that burn fuel to cars that "plug in", this requiring coal, will actually make things worse on a global warming/pollution level right?

call me when people wake up, get off the NIMBY horse, and start putting wind generators everywhere and solar panels on their roofs.

carbon sequestration techniques

although I am all for planting wind mills instead of corn in the midwest

Let's farm energy by capture, all for it.

[delongedoug]

Originally Posted by rallyblues

carbon sequestration techniques

although I am all for planting wind mills instead of corn in the midwest

Let's farm energy by capture, all for it.

It will be the new 'field of dreams'.

[skingfreak]

Originally Posted by banman

How could recycling the batteries make the carbon footprint worse than a conventional car?

And it's not like the batteries are made out of any super-exotic materials. It's predominantly nickel - the incremental cost of extracting an extra few pounds of nickel per car hardly seems likely to make a huge difference.

The much-hyped Hummer vs Prius article had to impose ridiculous handicaps on the Prius to make it even close.


http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200...en_mailbag.asp

The batteries thing comes down to cost; so you buy a new hybrid and the battery pack lasts for 7 years (not sure how long they truley do) after those 7 years the battery pack dies, and which point the car is useless unless the pack in replaced. At this point in time, with technology where it is at, the cost to replace the battery pack is more than the car is worth, so one might make the decsion to buy a new hybrid, in which case that old car is just a heaping pile of metal.

So in all that, you end up with a car with a shorter life span. Whether this affects the carbon footprint i don't know, and don't claim to know.

Just saying, there are some large obsticals that need to be looked at before this technology came become the dominate force.