Advice on storing a car long term?

[Smoblikat]

Hello, recently I purchased a new WRX and I will be storing it long term for many years. Yes, I know I should just drive the damn thing since thats what it was made for, but this is what I want.


Im working on getting it moved to a nice climate controlled storage facility, it will currently be at another storage facility which is not technically climate controlled, however its where i keep my foxbody and it could be sub zero outside or over 100 and the interior temp stays perfect with no humidity, so for a few months im not too concerned. My question is about the various fluids/oils in the car, should I drain everything before storing it? Should I add fuel stabilizer, or drain the tank? Any advice on how to avoid flat spots on the tires? Assuming I leave all the fluids in it, should I be changing those regularly even if they have no miles on them?



Also, sort of random other question, is it OK to use uncle scottys cocktail on a fully built PPG 5 speed? Or is there a more recommended oil/cocktail that I should be using?


Thank you,

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[Jack]

I'd recommend you look into those drive-in bags that you can put your car in and seal it. Why? Last year, my son's S2000 was stored on my lift, 5 feet in the air in a closed garage. In the spring, we were in there with his STi under it. A baby mouse fell out of the S2000 onto the rear window. We went into full evacuation mode, using a vacuum, my compressor air hose and a leaf blower. There was indeed a mouse nest above the charcoal canister. Up in the engine compartment, they had chewed apart 2 wires and luckily they were only to the brake fluid level sensor.

A car on the floor? Expect mice to get at it. That bag thing keeps them out. While all the other things you're worried about have easy solutions (car on jack stands, yes, use stabilizer in a full tank, etc) but without truly protecting the car, animals are going to call it home and mice get in anywhere.

Honestly, what I would do? I'd sell it or drive it. I'm not much of a car collector and even kept my Cobra and Lotus on the road during the winter so I could go out when the roads were dry, even driving my Cobra (no heater, no top) to Factory Five Racing in a full snowmobile suit and full face helmet.

[Smoblikat]

Originally Posted by Jack

I'd recommend you look into those drive-in bags that you can put your car in and seal it. Why? Last year, my son's S2000 was stored on my lift, 5 feet in the air in a closed garage. In the spring, we were in there with his STi under it. A baby mouse fell out of the S2000 onto the rear window. We went into full evacuation mode, using a vacuum, my compressor air hose and a leaf blower. There was indeed a mouse nest above the charcoal canister. Up in the engine compartment, they had chewed apart 2 wires and luckily they were only to the brake fluid level sensor.

A car on the floor? Expect mice to get at it. That bag thing keeps them out. While all the other things you're worried about have easy solutions (car on jack stands, yes, use stabilizer in a full tank, etc) but without truly protecting the car, animals are going to call it home and mice get in anywhere.

Honestly, what I would do? I'd sell it or drive it. I'm not much of a car collector and even kept my Cobra and Lotus on the road during the winter so I could go out when the roads were dry, even driving my Cobra (no heater, no top) to Factory Five Racing in a full snowmobile suit and full face helmet.

That is great information, I hadnt thought of using that bag thing or jackstands. I guess I should put some wood on top of the jackstands so it doesnt dent or scratch anything? I saw a car bubble like you were talking about on here I think, it was a thread from years ago, but some guy had an immaculate subaru fully built beyond all imagination, I think I remember seeing some cars in bubbles. I wish I could remember the name of that thread


As far as driving it goes, you are a better man than I, no doubt. I wouldnt even dream of taking my 5.0 mustang out in the winter, let alone a Factory Five Cobra. Im sure I will drive this car someday, but its currently silver.........thats just a flat out no from me. Need to save up to get it wrapped before I take it out, plus I dont want to damage the factory paint.


As much guilt as it brings me to not drive this car, I have owned a couple before this one and drove the absolute **** out of them, both my WRXs were well over 200K when I got rid of them, and they are easily my favorite cars I have ever owned or driven, especially in winter. I just want this one to be really special before I go around adding miles to it.



My dream is an MBP Bugeye with carbon fiber karlton flares, 17X9 black ROTA Grids, 04 STI sideskirts, CF hood with CF Bug STI scoop, wingless CF trunk, OEM 3 piece lip, and just a hint of nightshade on the tail lights and side markers. Then im going to put some $3 ebay tints on the fog lights


This is it now:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...-impreza-23-2/

[lefty o]

for storage of many years, and this ethanol fuel, get every last drop of gas out of it.

[LKN624]

As an owner of a 777 mile 2007
STI that I bought brand new back in 2007...I think I might be able to chime in here.

First of all...if you want to keep it fresh, I would change the engine oil and oil filter every year regardless of mileage. If you don't have any records of any of the other fluids being changed out, then I would go ahead and change them out. Brake Fluids need to be changed out every 2 years regardless or it starts to gum up. Don't forget the Clutch Fluid. The Transmission and Differential Fluids can be changed once with fresh fluid and not changed for at least several years. Coolant...I would change every few years or so as well. Any of the rubber hoses and belts...I would change them out if you don't know if they have been changed yet...cheap insurance.

Make sure the car is super clean in and out. Get it paint corrected and ceramic coated for safe measure.

As for storage...I would just go ahead and get a Car Capsule and park it in there. It's what the Car Bubble is called. You drive onto the black platform and put the clear cover over the car and zip it up. Then a fan runs at the back of it and it inflates. I would also get a soft car cover and cover the car first before doing this as the clear part of the bubble can lay on the paint and install some nice swirl marks. Make sure to have the windows cracked open. The circulating air of the Car Bubble system will circulate inside the car as well to keep it dry.

Fuel...drain it...fill it up with fresh fuel and put some STABIL in it. Let the car run so it can go through the entire fuel system.

I've been doing this to my car for the past 16 years and it still looks the same as I picked up the car from the dealership.

[rtv900]

Originally Posted by LKN624

I would change the engine oil and oil filter every year regardless of mileage. If you don't have any records of any of the other fluids being changed out, then I would go ahead and change them out. Brake Fluids need to be changed out every 2 years regardless or it starts to gum up. Don't forget the Clutch Fluid. The Transmission and Differential Fluids can be changed once with fresh fluid and not changed for at least several years. Coolant...I would change every few years or so as well.

^not that this will hurt anything, hell, changing fluids every 6 months won't hurt, but IMO it is a total waste of time and waste of resources.
Those fluids will be essentially identical to what you are replacing them with if you changed them that conservatively.

Only other thing I have to add is rather than storing on jack stands (then the suspension is fully extended and certain joints and rubber parts end up in positions that stress them) you can get little cup shaped things that the tires sit in, so they are supported around an arch rather than on a flat surface.
I think they're called flat defenders or something to that effect.
Almost look like tire chocks except they wrap around the entire bottom of the tire.

[KillerBMotorsport]

Some good advice in here. Changing fluids on the timeline is a good recommendation. I think Driven even makes a 'hot rod' oil that is made for long term storage applications.

On the tires, you have a few options. Jackstands, tire cradles, or over inflate. Jackstands will 100% not give you flat spots, the other two will, but to a much lesser extent than just parking the car at the normal operational pressure.

[Smoblikat]

Thank you all for the great information! I feel a lot better now knowing that I have somewhat of a game plan. I also just remembered I have a set of junkyard outback rims with some old snow tires mounted on them, I could just swap those on and not even worry about flat spots (tires are approaching 10 years old anyway).

Am I correct in assuming that a vinyl wrap would be a good way to both protect the factory paint, and allow me to change the color? Ngl, I plasti-dipped my entire mustang black.....but I think this car deserves a bit better lol

@LKN624
The fact that at one point your car had exactly 555 miles on it, and you still drove it afterwards is genuinely amazing to me. I dont think I could physically resist having a 555 mile subaru Great tips though, hopefully I can keep my car looking that nice for 16 more years too!

Thank you for the advice everyone, feel free to add any other tips you have, so far this has been a goldmine.

[Smoblikat]

Duplicate post....

[Unabomber]

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...php?p=17570702

[Smoblikat]

Originally Posted by Unabomber

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...php?p=17570702

Should have known to check the manifesto, its been a few years since ive been on here.


Thank you!

[tmp042]

Parked 13th July 2018 (nothing wrong with the car).
Haven’t done anything in terms of preservation. Still got a tank of fuel in it, though out of curiosity I will send a sample off for testing as my lawn mower would appreciate it.
I’ve put it on wheel dollies to make it easier to move about and thats about it.

[dobie0791]

Regarding the fluid changes-

Engine oil and gear oil does not age differently in the sump or the bottle as long as you bring the oil to temperature whenever the car does get started. I always send my oil in for analysis when changing. My last sample was from my Toyota 4x4 22re that ran a 6year oci with 1300 miles being driven in that time frame. The oil used (GC 0w 30) was from my stash and was in my garage for another half decade before going in the sump. The lab reported numbers were stellar and the oil was still very serviceable.

Brake fluid and fuel are a different story. Brake fluid should be changed every few years regardless of usage. And keep a full tank of the highest quality fuel available along with stabilizer. I use Sunoco SS100 from Sonoma raceway along with Stabil. Sunoco Optima is even better for long term storage, but hard to get and technically not legal for use on public roads in CA.

[seaYa]

Originally Posted by Jack

I'd recommend you look into those drive-in bags that you can put your car in and seal it. Why? Last year, my son's S2000 was stored on my lift, 5 feet in the air in a closed garage. In the spring, we were in there with his STi under it. A baby mouse fell out of the S2000 onto the rear window. We went into full evacuation mode, using a vacuum, my compressor air hose and a leaf blower. There was indeed a mouse nest above the charcoal canister. Up in the engine compartment, they had chewed apart 2 wires and luckily they were only to the brake fluid level sensor.

A car on the floor? Expect mice to get at it. That bag thing keeps them out. While all the other things you're worried about have easy solutions (car on jack stands, yes, use stabilizer in a full tank, etc) but without truly protecting the car, animals are going to call it home and mice get in anywhere.

Honestly, what I would do? I'd sell it or drive it. I'm not much of a car collector and even kept my Cobra and Lotus on the road during the winter so I could go out when the roads were dry, even driving my Cobra (no heater, no top) to Factory Five Racing in a full snowmobile suit and full face helmet.

Mice is my biggest issue too. Over the years Ive found nests in all sorts of places. What works for me is:
-absurd number of mouse traps (old school type snappers)
-all doors/hood/trunk closed
-mufflers stuffed with rags
-FREQUENT checks in the car/garage (every other day)

Knock on wood, this has kept my toys free of these little *astards so far

Good luck

[FaastLegacy]

Originally Posted by tmp042

Parked 13th July 2018 (nothing wrong with the car).
Haven’t done anything in terms of preservation. Still got a tank of fuel in it, though out of curiosity I will send a sample off for testing as my lawn mower would appreciate it.
I’ve put it on wheel dollies to make it easier to move about and thats about it.

Did you really park a Subaru Forester?

These are mass produced economy cars, not a 911 or a Ferrari, they're never going to appreciate in value. Drive them!

[tmp042]

Something about skipping to the last page of the novel..

[Jedi03]

he is the one who sold the 777 mile car above lol...to each their own, if you have the time, money and space to keep your toys (whatever that means to you) then why not? We may say drive it as that is our choice with our toys, but some people like to keep their OG Chewbacca from 1977 in the box and look at it or just keep it in another box...will it appreciate in value? who knows...will OP appreciate it whether its driven or not? only OP will really know and may or may not share with us...

I just pulled a buddies rx7 out of storage...we did very little to prep other than put on jackstands and drain the fuel...I have read the fuel draining could be bad as that allows rust to come in...we were lucky and also in the southwest so no issues there...we flushed the oil and trans fluid, verified nothing was leaking or changed otherwise, got a new battery (did remove this also upon storage) and it started right up...if I were to do it again I would drain the fuel down to maybe a quarter tank and run seafoam through the system (turn on pump to circulate through everything for a while) and do the rest the same.

[Jedi03]

duplicate

[19std]

1. The flat spots is a myth, have parked several cars over several years, never had a flat spot on good radial true road tires. I think as the manifesto says this was more an issue with older tires (bias bly??). All the tires were low on air, not that I recommend that, but really the point is mostly moot. If the car is being stored more than two or three years, the compound is probably trashed from a performance standpoint, approaching 10 years this is actually a saftey hazard (ie Paul Walker).

2. I will swear by Stabil, and absolutely run the car so the stabil gets all through the fuel system. I once had a bizarre failure that I can only attribute to Ice formation in a fuel line. On start up a year later, this fuel line was loose and leaking (a very small amount) of fuel. This car was only 2 years old when strored and never had a fuel leak prior, its not like the pack rat went in and loosened a hose clamp...

There are stations with corn free fuel too (VP Racing) if your lucky in your area that will make the fuel system generally less hygroscopic overall.

3. Animals will make a home in your car. I had a bird nest in my exhaust and I think a squirrel in my engine bay, lots of nuts... everywhere, no squirrel though. So yeah, have some solution for this.

4. Change your oil and put something with a lot of detergent in it like Shell T6. All the other fluids are a wash because you'll probably want to change it on start up anyways. The diff and tranny are sealed so no need to molest with any cocktails of any varietal. Really just change all fluids on start up. Spark plugs too, probably some other wear parts I'm forgetting...

5. Pull battery and throw away depending on storage duration, you can try a trickle charger if the duration is shortish. Absolutely disconnect your battery whatever you decide to do.

6. A litter box with fresh kitty litter left in your *closed* interior should control humidity around 68%. Your milage may vary here if you live in a place like Miami, may not work and you'll need serious dessicants changed out periodically. I have had a car sit in a humid a$$ place that molded, was stored like crap though... rotors even rusted and seized.

7. Definitely get "fire and theft" only insurance, much cheaper.

[Smoblikat]

Originally Posted by 19std

1. The flat spots is a myth, have parked several cars over several years, never had a flat spot on good radial true road tires. I think as the manifesto says this was more an issue with older tires (bias bly??). All the tires were low on air, not that I recommend that, but really the point is mostly moot. If the car is being stored more than two or three years, the compound is probably trashed from a performance standpoint, approaching 10 years this is actually a saftey hazard (ie Paul Walker).

2. I will swear by Stabil, and absolutely run the car so the stabil gets all through the fuel system. I once had a bizarre failure that I can only attribute to Ice formation in a fuel line. On start up a year later, this fuel line was loose and leaking (a very small amount) of fuel. This car was only 2 years old when strored and never had a fuel leak prior, its not like the pack rat went in and loosened a hose clamp...

There are stations with corn free fuel too (VP Racing) if your lucky in your area that will make the fuel system generally less hygroscopic overall.

3. Animals will make a home in your car. I had a bird nest in my exhaust and I think a squirrel in my engine bay, lots of nuts... everywhere, no squirrel though. So yeah, have some solution for this.

4. Change your oil and put something with a lot of detergent in it like Shell T6. All the other fluids are a wash because you'll probably want to change it on start up anyways. The diff and tranny are sealed so no need to molest with any cocktails of any varietal. Really just change all fluids on start up. Spark plugs too, probably some other wear parts I'm forgetting...

5. Pull battery and throw away depending on storage duration, you can try a trickle charger if the duration is shortish. Absolutely disconnect your battery whatever you decide to do.

6. A litter box with fresh kitty litter left in your *closed* interior should control humidity around 68%. Your milage may vary here if you live in a place like Miami, may not work and you'll need serious dessicants changed out periodically. I have had a car sit in a humid a$$ place that molded, was stored like crap though... rotors even rusted and seized.

7. Definitely get "fire and theft" only insurance, much cheaper.

Thank you for the insight!


1. I think im just going to ignore the flat spot thing for now anyway, seems like the modern consensus is that it isnt really a thing anymore. Plus I dont actually like the rims I have on the car now and I would need to buy new tires anyway (going from 18's to 17's).


2. I really need to go over and fill up the tank and put some stabil in it. I have been running the car up to temp once or twice a week since ive owned it, but I havent actually "driven it", I put 2/10 of a mile on it in the storage yard lol. Still too salty on the roads to take it out, so I guess I will just bring some 5 gallon cans with me, the car currently has about half a tank.


3. Is this an issue primarily when the vehicle is stored at home, or anywhere? Its currently in a secured storage place, though I will be moving it to a much better (and cheaper) location soon, the whole car is completely sealed in with metal structure and an extremely thick gasketed garage style door, my mustang has been in the same location for about 5 years (anyone want to buy an 89 foxbody lol) and I frequently check on it and havent noticed any signs of critter mischief. I was considering laying out traps with bait just in case, but im worried that since I havent had an issue yet, this might actually attract more animals that it would otherwise prevent.


4. I have heard the brake fluid is corrosive over time and should be changed yearly regardless. My intention was to just pick one day (in summer) and do a full refresh of fluids, ill probably pull a plug and check it out, I dont even know what iridium is tbh, but I assume it doesnt corrode like copper would?


5. How necessary is disconnecting the battery? I remember from my other bugeyes, that once you cut power (pull battery) it takes about 50 or so miles for the ECU to re-learn everything. I dont think I will put 50 miles total on this car, let alone every time I want to drive it :P


6. Humidity is an issue in general where I live, but the storage place is always cool as a cucumber. I did consider putting some sort of humidapak type thing in there, does the kitty litter leave any kind of odor? Ive never left it in an enclosed space for long periods of time, but it would be much easier to deal with than some of the alternatives I was considering.


7. Full disclosure, I only put up the cash for half the car, took the rest as a loan (reasonable interest rate) and my bank requires full coverage...........even though the car is literally locked behind multiple gates and barbed wire. In a year or two I should be able to choose the kind of insurance I want.


Thank you,
Smoblikat

[19std]

Originally Posted by Smoblikat

Thank you for the insight!


2. I really need to go over and fill up the tank and put some stabil in it. I have been running the car up to temp once or twice a week since ive owned it, but I havent actually "driven it", I put 2/10 of a mile on it in the storage yard lol. Still too salty on the roads to take it out, so I guess I will just bring some 5 gallon cans with me, the car currently has about half a tank.

3. Is this an issue primarily when the vehicle is stored at home, or anywhere? Its currently in a secured storage place, though I will be moving it to a much better (and cheaper) location soon, the whole car is completely sealed in with metal structure and an extremely thick gasketed garage style door, my mustang has been in the same location for about 5 years (anyone want to buy an 89 foxbody lol) and I frequently check on it and havent noticed any signs of critter mischief. I was considering laying out traps with bait just in case, but im worried that since I havent had an issue yet, this might actually attract more animals that it would otherwise prevent.

4. I have heard the brake fluid is corrosive over time and should be changed yearly regardless. My intention was to just pick one day (in summer) and do a full refresh of fluids, ill probably pull a plug and check it out, I dont even know what iridium is tbh, but I assume it doesnt corrode like copper would?

5. How necessary is disconnecting the battery? I remember from my other bugeyes, that once you cut power (pull battery) it takes about 50 or so miles for the ECU to re-learn everything. I dont think I will put 50 miles total on this car, let alone every time I want to drive it :P

6. Humidity is an issue in general where I live, but the storage place is always cool as a cucumber. I did consider putting some sort of humidapak type thing in there, does the kitty litter leave any kind of odor? Ive never left it in an enclosed space for long periods of time, but it would be much easier to deal with than some of the alternatives I was considering.

7. Full disclosure, I only put up the cash for half the car, took the rest as a loan (reasonable interest rate) and my bank requires full coverage...........even though the car is literally locked behind multiple gates and barbed wire. In a year or two I should be able to choose the kind of insurance I want.

Smoblikat

2. Yeah jerrican gas can , just pour the stabil in first then fill it up, run it for 10 20 minutes, then top it off and you are good for years, had a buddy say it worked for 7 years.


3. Mine was outside, so only thing you would (should) be contending with is rodents. Yeah probably stay away from any attractant traps, just the poison and glue should be good. They can do some serious damage, eat fuel lines, or even worse electrical lines, then you'll be chasing electrical gremlins.



4. IDK about the brake fluid man TBH. Maybe do some more research, I have a beater Impreza that I've run for a decade without a change. If it was mine, I would just change on startup. The antifreeze will go corrosive eventually, but change out is not the correct PM, correct PM would be sample with strips and change as needed (should be like 10 years). Don't pull the plugs, just change out on or before startup, not sure the mechanism of fouling but it seems to be buildup, not corrosion. Only fluid I would even consider just periodically changing out would be the Engine Oil, and even that I would do annually max. Quite frankly if you don't get car to operating temps for at least 30 minutes ( by driving, idling will not get to correct operating temps in most of the fluids) you are probably doing more harm then good.



5. If you are on a stock tune, only thing meaningful it will "forget" is how to idle. All you have to do to relearn idle is idle engine for 10 mins before taking for a drive. The main issue with the battery is sulfation, look it up, its a losing battle for a decade long type garage queen even with correct trickle charging.


6. I learned about the kitty litter from the cigar bros (cigars must be maintained around 68%). Boveda / humipaks only work for small applications, kitty litter is the cheap passive solution for BIG humidors. Odor probably not an issue otherwise would not work in that application either, I'm sure there is a preferred non scented brand... You'll probably need to rotate annually semi annually based on if it seems like its still working or not...


7. This is common practice on cars with notes that are stored for the winter, no reputable bank will look at this practice twice, unreputable lenders will not know or care, your knee caps are good enuf collateral... I have a bank note and do it every winter. Only no no is driving in this condition, you have to call the insurer the day you intend to drive to put full coverage back on. And it is substantially cheaper not like 5-10% off, more like 50-75% off.

[subiedan333]

Originally Posted by 19std

1. The flat spots is a myth, have parked several cars over several years, never had a flat spot on good radial true road tires. I think as the manifesto says this was more an issue with older tires (bias bly??). All the tires were low on air, not that I recommend that, but really the point is mostly moot. If the car is being stored more than two or three years, the compound is probably trashed from a performance standpoint, approaching 10 years this is actually a saftey hazard (ie Paul Walker).

2. I will swear by Stabil, and absolutely run the car so the stabil gets all through the fuel system. I once had a bizarre failure that I can only attribute to Ice formation in a fuel line. On start up a year later, this fuel line was loose and leaking (a very small amount) of fuel. This car was only 2 years old when strored and never had a fuel leak prior, its not like the pack rat went in and loosened a hose clamp...

There are stations with corn free fuel too (VP Racing) if your lucky in your area that will make the fuel system generally less hygroscopic overall.

3. Animals will make a home in your car. I had a bird nest in my exhaust and I think a squirrel in my engine bay, lots of nuts... everywhere, no squirrel though. So yeah, have some solution for this.

4. Change your oil and put something with a lot of detergent in it like Shell T6. All the other fluids are a wash because you'll probably want to change it on start up anyways. The diff and tranny are sealed so no need to molest with any cocktails of any varietal. Really just change all fluids on start up. Spark plugs too, probably some other wear parts I'm forgetting...

5. Pull battery and throw away depending on storage duration, you can try a trickle charger if the duration is shortish. Absolutely disconnect your battery whatever you decide to do.

6. A litter box with fresh kitty litter left in your *closed* interior should control humidity around 68%. Your milage may vary here if you live in a place like Miami, may not work and you'll need serious dessicants changed out periodically. I have had a car sit in a humid a$$ place that molded, was stored like crap though... rotors even rusted and seized.

7. Definitely get "fire and theft" only insurance, much cheaper.

100% trickle charger + anti rodent noise maker thingy...I would have it turned over as often as possible keep the fluids flowing - if you live in an extreme cold environment, block heater?

[rtv900]

Originally Posted by Smoblikat

Thank you for the insight!
1. seems like the modern consensus is that it isnt really a thing anymore.

2. I have been running the car up to temp once or twice a week since ive owned it, but I havent actually "driven it"

3. I frequently check on it and havent noticed any signs of critter mischief

4. I have heard the brake fluid is corrosive over time and should be changed yearly regardless

5. How necessary is disconnecting the battery?

6. Humidity is an issue in general where I live, but the storage place is always cool as a cucumber


7 and my bank requires full coverage...........even though the car is literally locked behind multiple gates and barbed wire

1) not sure who's saying it isn't because it is, you just probably aren't seeing that because you are moving it twice a week
2) stop warming it up twice a week, holy crap this is overkill, either store it or don't. Just warming it up and not actually driving it for real is worse than not starting it at all
3) just wait, once they find it they'll send out word to the rest
4) not even close to true. Brake fluid absolutely does NOT need to be changed annually, this is a total waste of time and resources. And it is corrosive to things that are NOT supposed to contact brake fluid, it isn't corrosive to steel brake lines and aluminum calipers.
5) necessary unless you use a trickle charger, but again, this assumes you are not going and starting the car every 3 days
6) nothing you can do about this unless you have your own actual closed space and you get a dehumidifier that has a drain
7) yeah a bank doesn't give a crap about your story, they have no way to validate anything you say and they must protect their asset

Originally Posted by subiedan333

block heater?

block heater has zero value for a stored car. Even a small car engine block heater will be a 400w unit. Leave that plugged in for a single month and you're talking $50 in electricity to simply keep the water warm for no purpose.