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02-04-2010, 02:44 PM | #51 |
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But how do you get big droop, a normal looking ride height, and stiffness?
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02-04-2010, 02:45 PM | #52 |
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To do that, you don't use coilovers that are dual height adjustable....
- Andrew |
02-04-2010, 02:47 PM | #53 | |
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02-04-2010, 02:48 PM | #54 | ||
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I understand you need compression, but is the droop really that necessary for tarmac (non-jumping) use? |
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02-04-2010, 03:15 PM | #55 | |||
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02-04-2010, 03:18 PM | #56 | |
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It shows a car on a normal road at legal speeds using ALL the bump and droop the stock suspension has. That's about 3x what's even offered by most of the cheap crap coilovers. |
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02-04-2010, 07:08 PM | #57 |
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I did, I don't know the person who shot the video, so if the suspension was soft, then it would be easier to get the droop and travel.
So ultimately, we are saying that almost all of the Japanese coilovers don't offer the performance that the Euro ones offer because of droop travel? Don't get me wrong, I am ok to spend the $2k-$2.5k on new suspension since it's time, but I like that firm feeling and not a lot of body roll. I really don't like the idea of the spring being uncontrolled and unseated if the suspension droops all the way. So this leaves us with AST, KW v3, what else? Personally, the dual height adjustable coilover idea is nice since the ride height doesn't change the preload on the spring, and it keeps the spring nice and tight in there. Is there a coilover which can offer the ability to droop and adjust height without changing travel and spring control? I'm not trying to be a skeptic or argue for the sake of it. I'm just not a suspension pro and my experience is limited to the parts that come to me from people I have relationships with. |
02-04-2010, 07:35 PM | #58 | |
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As pretty much everyone has stated stiffer springs are not going to make droop not needed. Stiffer springs will cause the suspension to not react as well to bumps, possibly lifting a tire in which it will easily cause the shock droop. On the track it's not as big of a deal as normally the track is smoother than roads, but for the average road in the US droop IS important. Stiffer suspension can help compensate for lack of bump travel, but again, this can cause the car to unsettle. I rather have my wheels try and maintain contact with the road at all times rather and F1 it around corners and after hitting bumps and 2 or 3 wheel the car I can tell you for a fact that my car running 500/400 T2 units easily uses up the entire amount of droop on normal roads. AST, KW and Ohlins all use helper springs to control preload. I've never unseated a spring and I've had all 4 wheels off the ground before and haven't unseated a spring. The helper spring when compressed doesn't affect the overall spring rate of the unit. It's simply there for when you go into droop that you don't unseat the spring as it will stay preloaded. |
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02-04-2010, 08:01 PM | #59 | |
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Leslie P.S. It has been said many times before, but I'll be happy to repeat, there is more to good suspension then bump travel. Also, ppl should realise that if you want better handling performance, you need to make compromises - and one of the first things that is compromised is comfort. |
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02-04-2010, 08:17 PM | #60 | |
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Stiffer springs aren't going to change the fact that you need droop. |
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02-04-2010, 08:18 PM | #61 |
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ok what are helper springs? my google searching mostly shows they are used with trucks/suv's to increeeeese the load limit.
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02-04-2010, 08:26 PM | #62 | |
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the reason is that say u get in a situation where your suspension gets fully extended (ie max droop). if your spring is not long enough, it will basically have nothing holding it in place...bad. so this smaller light spring doesn't really effect the handling of the car, but its there so that the main spring can be kept in place... |
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02-04-2010, 08:29 PM | #63 | |
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Basically, its kind of an aftermarket way of doing what stock springs do with progressive rates. Soft, then stiff as you compress them. **Experts- correct me if I'm wrong since this is my understanding of how to use them** |
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02-04-2010, 08:32 PM | #64 | |
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02-04-2010, 08:39 PM | #65 |
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thanks for the info pio!pio! and littlewhitewagon
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02-04-2010, 08:42 PM | #66 | ||
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02-04-2010, 08:44 PM | #67 | |
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If you count harder bushings- yeah to some extent you'll get increased NVH, but that really to me is NOT NVH, but increased tactile feedback. NVH has a negative connotation, and therefore I only consider NVH unnecessary harshness in a ride. (But that's just my definition) But remember the biggest cause of NVH on cars is that the struts have been incorrectly matched to springs. So, if your "upgraded" suspension has created lots of NVH, chances are, your struts are incorrectly matched to your springs. Or the damping rates are incorrectly set. Go-Karts have lots of NVH, but does that mean they have the ideal suspension? No. Now I would also say if you can't feel the road at all, and your ride is super soft, that wouldn't be good either. NVH levels should be at a decent medium where you are able to get tactile feedback from the car without the car being too harsh. As for droop, how much droop you need is determined by lots of complicated freakin physics things that only Ty understands cause he's a Physics ninja master. The roughness of the road is one factor, but there's more. Stuff like body roll, that people try to foolishly get rid of without considering the factors super stiff springs (or in many cases, overly dampened struts) will do to the other parts of the car, is important. Lowering and stiffening the car is NOT the answer to getting rid of body roll really. What it seems people have a quandary over is the fact that people want to get rid of body roll, and by connection have a snappier car without getting rid of suspension travel. With lowering and super stiff springs, you may lower the center of gravity, and you may have what feels like a stiffer ride, but in reality body roll has more factors than just center of gravity. Something called roll center is a most important factor when it comes to body roll. When you lower the car, you are lowering the roll center, thus making the problems of body roll WORSE, while the stiffer spring rates only mask the real problem. With all of these factors in mind, it is very difficult to get a "perfect setup," but getting close can be done where you can preserve droop and keep roll center high, thus allowing more suspension travel, less body roll, and even sometimes better camber curve. You get a snappier car without a super harsh ride, and you start living life again! Done with theorycrafting. I wish suspension work was as easy as writing stuff. Last edited by formula91; 02-04-2010 at 08:53 PM. |
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02-04-2010, 08:52 PM | #68 |
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I would say the biggest issue with NVH in our cars is when someone throws the ALK on. That is the only thing that really changed the NVH of my car in noticeable way.
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02-04-2010, 08:58 PM | #69 | |
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Stiffer bushings in general will increase NVH. |
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02-04-2010, 09:11 PM | #70 |
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The Whiteline ALK is only ONE bushing. Two if you count each side.
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02-04-2010, 09:27 PM | #71 | ||
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"Pretty damn comfortable" != same comfort as stock, so you have accepted the compromise in comfort, even if it is minor, for better handling and suspension performance - which is what my point was Quote:
Leslie |
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02-04-2010, 09:30 PM | #72 | |
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EDIT: In fact, i've ridden in some extremely soft cars which are horrendously uncomfortable specifically because the chassis is not well controlled. |
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02-04-2010, 09:33 PM | #73 |
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If that was your point then yes I agree. It seemed like you were trying to make it sound that to have a good handling vehicle it had to be a bear to drive around town.
You still need droop regardless if you're running higher spring rates and higher rated dampers. This idea that spring rate removes the need for travel makes no sense. You want the tire to maintain contact with the road as much as possible and if you don't have travel you're going to start lifting wheels which is going to lower overall grip levels. |
02-04-2010, 09:50 PM | #74 | ||||||
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02-04-2010, 09:55 PM | #75 |
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Oh, I'm not surprised at all. Compared to most roads though they are better. kerbing is a different story though
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