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Old 02-14-2019, 03:30 PM   #26
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It’s full of carbon deposits. Needs to go dual injection.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:36 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
There's darkness in your heart. Let it out.
You mean Dark Stupidity? I have not been on this forum in a few years but I see that Scraps has not gotten any smarter. So an $80K EV is like an iphone that you just throw out? Did you ever postulate that by 2033 there will be much smaller and efficient batteries that can be retrofitted into the Tesla's that would make them even lighter and faster? C'mon scraps? Your'e a rocket scientist, we expect better than that....
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:33 PM   #28
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So interest, very subscribe
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIRTRIOT2 View Post
You mean Dark Stupidity? I have not been on this forum in a few years but I see that Scraps has not gotten any smarter. So an $80K EV is like an iphone that you just throw out? Did you ever postulate that by 2033 there will be much smaller and efficient batteries that can be retrofitted into the Tesla's that would make them even lighter and faster? C'mon scraps? Your'e a rocket scientist, we expect better than that....
I think Scrappy has a point though. Over time we have become a more materialist and disposable society, where things are cherished less and people scoot to the latest and greatest. The way Tesla is run is like a tech company first, an automobile company second. Scrappy's point about iPhones works because Apple and Tesla are essentially in the same industry; the tech industry. Although I agree people may try and update Teslas in the future, being in that tech space I think the majority of people woukd rather junk em and get a 2033 model of something.


Edit: especially with how computer and software based Teslas are, over time software requirements for updates are going to reach the hardware limits of the car's computer, making it obsolete anyway. You don't browse this site on Windows 98, so why would you drive a car with slower computers and potentially more security risks due to old software?

Last edited by SettleForSatin; 02-22-2019 at 07:49 PM. Reason: I remembered something elsemto add
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:52 PM   #30
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What?


It's still a car.


The updates only exist to allow new tech to operate with old tech. Yes, eventually things won't be able to communicate, but you're talking about adding apps or updating the Nav system, things that don't affect the function of the car. The latest map I can get for my van is from 2013, should I throw my van away?
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:43 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
The latest map I can get for my van is from 2013, should I throw my van away?
Yes! It’s a van!!*



*Comment does not apply to Mitsubishi Delica.
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Old 02-23-2019, 06:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DIRTRIOT2 View Post
You mean Dark Stupidity? I have not been on this forum in a few years but I see that Scraps has not gotten any smarter. So an $80K EV is like an iphone that you just throw out? Did you ever postulate that by 2033 there will be much smaller and efficient batteries that can be retrofitted into the Tesla's that would make them even lighter and faster? C'mon scraps? Your'e a rocket scientist, we expect better than that....
I don’t understand why your insulting Scrappy. From my observation he is always very polite and gives everyone respect equally. Just because his views may differ from yours doesn’t give you grounds to pounce/ immature name calling. No one likes being on the receiving end of a comment attack post. I know first hand.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:12 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
What?


It's still a car.


The updates only exist to allow new tech to operate with old tech. Yes, eventually things won't be able to communicate, but you're talking about adding apps or updating the Nav system, things that don't affect the function of the car. The latest map I can get for my van is from 2013, should I throw my van away?
Simply a navigation update is one thing, but I am referring more to the processing power of the computer. Teslas currently have various complex systems that are being tweaked such as its self driving system. I am sure as self driving gets better, the algorithms used by the system are going to get more and more complex. In 2033, your 2013 Model S might not have the computing power for this latest software. It comes down to how much you value your safety. Would you want a car with more primitive self driving techniques, or slower reaction times? Additionally, Teslas have that feature where you can operate the car like a remote controlled vehicle, essentially allowing an outside source to wirelessly control all systems of the car. Let's say the computers in a 2013 Model S are not being supported with the latest updates in 2033. Updates often contain security measures, that also require advanced computing power over time. If some exploit is found and Tesla never releases an update for their out of date cars, your car is vulnerable to someone gaining access to the car and driving it away, or worse, changing things like throttle input or steering while you are driving.

I see where you are coming from with your point about a 2013 nav, but Teslas are much more complex, and a very different beast.
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Old 02-23-2019, 07:34 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Most hybrid buyers never make the money back on fuel savings to cover the premium they spent over a standard gasoline engine model which is why a lot of them don't sell.
You have any data to back up that claim? There's a reason so many taxis are hybrids these days.. and the 5yr total cost of ownership for a $25k Prius is cheaper than that of a $15k Yaris.

Hell, an Accord hybrid costs about $1,525 more than the equivalent 1.5t, and only uses 70% of the fuel. At $3/gal ($1.04CAN/liter) that means you're saving money before 50,000miles.. and you've spent less on brakes (regen), oil changes (no turbo), and transmission maintenance (no trans [as compared to chain CVT]).
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Old 02-23-2019, 07:48 PM   #35
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You picked up on my point perfectly. Nobody is going to retrofit a Tesla as they won’t be worth retrofitting. In order for a car to be upgraded substantially there has to be a reason to go through the trouble. And quite frankly their won’t be

Cars today are more disposable than before. And EV are far more likely to be tossed as they are soulless creations and once the next shiney new thing comes that is smarter and faster and has more tricks and gimmicks the model S will be forgotten

Tesla would rather sell you a new car than keep the old one running forever.

Economics. Elon loves money and powe and control more than anything, so do not kid yourself into thinking he will support the model S forever

Just like your 386 PC the complicated car will be crushed and replaced

We have become that way as a society

The model s and certainly the hideous model X is not immune to age and time. Rather they are going to be it’s first victims

My work at NASA on propulsion means I can see through bull****.

The instant the EV is embraced by real car makers Tesla is Done

I look for Hyundai to be the first nail in their coffin destroying the model 3

Then Mercedes and Porsche will make the S obsolete




Quote:
Originally Posted by SettleForSatin View Post
Simply a navigation update is one thing, but I am referring more to the processing power of the computer. Teslas currently have various complex systems that are being tweaked such as its self driving system. I am sure as self driving gets better, the algorithms used by the system are going to get more and more complex. In 2033, your 2013 Model S might not have the computing power for this latest software. It comes down to how much you value your safety. Would you want a car with more primitive self driving techniques, or slower reaction times? Additionally, Teslas have that feature where you can operate the car like a remote controlled vehicle, essentially allowing an outside source to wirelessly control all systems of the car. Let's say the computers in a 2013 Model S are not being supported with the latest updates in 2033. Updates often contain security measures, that also require advanced computing power over time. If some exploit is found and Tesla never releases an update for their out of date cars, your car is vulnerable to someone gaining access to the car and driving it away, or worse, changing things like throttle input or steering while you are driving.

I see where you are coming from with your point about a 2013 nav, but Teslas are much more complex, and a very different beast.
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:36 AM   #36
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Cars today are more disposable than before. And EV are far more likely to be tossed as they are soulless creations and once the next shiney new thing comes that is smarter and faster and has more tricks and gimmicks the model S will be forgotten
I've owned my EV for 5 years now. Well I've had it for 5 years. Leased for 3, owned for 2 years. That's the longest I've kept an automobile in my life. And it's not going anywhere. It'll be in the fleet as my DD for at least another 5 years. It's also the best DD I've ever owned and I've owned a lot of cars.

You are as jaded as ever about these vehicles. Reminiscent of Alien in Spring Breakers "Scarface on repeat, constant y'all!!!!!"
What I have never understood about you is you spend an awful lot of time ranting and raving, and getting angry about EV's. It's as if you think coming into every EV thread on here, like you do, and whining, is going to do anything about the sea of EV change over the next 10 years. ICE vehicles will still be around, still be sold, so I just don't get it. It's pretty juvenile.
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:32 AM   #37
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no you are wrong again about me. You spew the same rhetoric back at me and anybody else who dares question the validity of these vehicles. I merely point out a likely scenario, that they are disposable, and your butt hurt o meter pegs into triggered mode.

Then you do your best to label me. As if I needed a label, but it seems that a label can make an easier target for you to understand. Your leaf is a appliance in my eyes. No number crunching and ranting about how its solar powered will ever change the fact that to me it a laughable vehicle. What is juvenile is why you care about what a total stranger things of your car. Who cares what I think. I certainly do not care what you or anybody else things about me. If people agree with my words, fine, if not, hey that is fine as well. Who am I do tell them or you what to think. I certainly will not stop commenting as I enjoy it. I can only offer an opinion.

As usual you neglect to notice how I gave a big thumbs up to the Kona EV, you did not mutter a word of "hey look at scrap" - not that I care either way, just making a point.

fact is all newer cars made today and especially EV will be disposable, throw away and replace with the next shiniest new thing. WHy? Because the value of a used car depreciates so quickly. What depreciates faster than an EV? A cheeseburger or maybe cheap watch.

People treat things largely in part to how hard it was to obtain. If you pay a fortune for something you not only defend your purchase as the smartest thing ever (cough Model S) but you will defend it to the death. Conversely, when people pay peanuts for things, like used Leafs or I3's they tend to treat them as cheap disposable things that you ride until the wheels fall off and then walk away after they die.

Just a fact of human nature. Be it labor or a new smart phone, or a video game controller, if it was easy to obtain, you then to cast it aside with little thought.

Until the resale of all EV gets much better they will be treated as disposable appliances. Feel free to disagree or not.... matters not.
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Old 02-25-2019, 12:33 PM   #38
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Personally i don't believe Tesla will be out the window should the other automakers step it up...it will just be another option out there. The same as why Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc are still in business, people like the name and the style...sure sales will dip, but the premium people pay now compared to all the other full electric options shows that there are true believers in the product...will it always remain the best? who knows, but like stated above eventually they do wear out/become obsolete in different ways. Sure there will be better options in newer models, but like me, many will want some of the older feel as i drive a GR everyday, i purposely sought it out instead of looking at the newer models as it has a style and feel i prefer.
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Old 02-25-2019, 12:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
I've owned my EV for 5 years now. Well I've had it for 5 years. Leased for 3, owned for 2 years. That's the longest I've kept an automobile in my life. And it's not going anywhere. It'll be in the fleet as my DD for at least another 5 years. It's also the best DD I've ever owned and I've owned a lot of cars.

You are as jaded as ever about these vehicles. Reminiscent of Alien in Spring Breakers "Scarface on repeat, constant y'all!!!!!"
What I have never understood about you is you spend an awful lot of time ranting and raving, and getting angry about EV's. It's as if you think coming into every EV thread on here, like you do, and whining, is going to do anything about the sea of EV change over the next 10 years. ICE vehicles will still be around, still be sold, so I just don't get it. It's pretty juvenile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
no you are wrong again about me. You spew the same rhetoric back at me and anybody else who dares question the validity of these vehicles. I merely point out a likely scenario, that they are disposable, and your butt hurt o meter pegs into triggered mode.

Then you do your best to label me. As if I needed a label, but it seems that a label can make an easier target for you to understand. Your leaf is a appliance in my eyes. No number crunching and ranting about how its solar powered will ever change the fact that to me it a laughable vehicle. What is juvenile is why you care about what a total stranger things of your car. Who cares what I think. I certainly do not care what you or anybody else things about me. If people agree with my words, fine, if not, hey that is fine as well. Who am I do tell them or you what to think. I certainly will not stop commenting as I enjoy it. I can only offer an opinion.

As usual you neglect to notice how I gave a big thumbs up to the Kona EV, you did not mutter a word of "hey look at scrap" - not that I care either way, just making a point.

fact is all newer cars made today and especially EV will be disposable, throw away and replace with the next shiniest new thing. WHy? Because the value of a used car depreciates so quickly. What depreciates faster than an EV? A cheeseburger or maybe cheap watch.

People treat things largely in part to how hard it was to obtain. If you pay a fortune for something you not only defend your purchase as the smartest thing ever (cough Model S) but you will defend it to the death. Conversely, when people pay peanuts for things, like used Leafs or I3's they tend to treat them as cheap disposable things that you ride until the wheels fall off and then walk away after they die.

Just a fact of human nature. Be it labor or a new smart phone, or a video game controller, if it was easy to obtain, you then to cast it aside with little thought.

Until the resale of all EV gets much better they will be treated as disposable appliances. Feel free to disagree or not.... matters not.
I see both of your points here; I think we can all agree that the bulk of cars have become disposable appliances, regardless of drivetrain; the few exceptions being special or limited production models.

On the resale value comment, sure the leaf value tanks pretty quick, but the bolt actually holds it's value pretty well, time will tell for the model 3, but the other Tesla's hold their value comparable to, or better than their luxury ICE counterparts. If we're going to be broad reaching and use the "all" comment, lets talk FCA products, Ford/Chevy cars, ANY MINIVAN, luxury vehicles - values tank the second you drive them off the lot.

The "average" life cycle for a car or luxury car is what, 3-5 years of initial ownership? Trucks are somewhat an exception, but even they get turned around quicker and quicker as time moves on.

The devils advocate in me can see why manufacturers are building cars the way they are; they are catering to the mob to maximize profits. Stuff all the tech in you can, build it quick and cheap; as long as it lasts through that initial ownership window with minimal issues, the people that buy new cars are happy, doesn't matter if it catches fire once the second owner gets their hands on it, they weren't going to buy new anyways.

My wife has a 2017 Corolla hatch, it is an appliance; when it becomes more expensive to repair than to replace, she will get a new car (likely a 2027 Corolla), the same way it was when we got rid of her 2007 Yaris, because that too was an appliance.

I'd love an EV appliance for a DD, but I don't want FWD, and I need more range than the current leaf offers, especially considering I live in New England where winter happens and cuts that range significantly. If it had more range I might even scoop up a second hand one and deal with my ff hate; the maintenance is minimal and the reliability is high, with a low resale value I can't see a reason not to get one second hand if you don't need the range.

If the Chevy Bolt resale tanks to Leaf levels I'll probably scoop one up, that way I can put my extra money into old iron instead of new plastic.

Just my opinion, feel free to disregard it.
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Old 02-25-2019, 12:49 PM   #40
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I always figured the batteries would be the weak link that sends your average EV to the scrap heap. But seeing how these batteries have been aging, I think for most EVs it will be rust that dooms them, maybe more so than with ICE cars.

With an ICE vehicle, the list of things that can doom it grow exponentially as the value approaches scrap metal. Less so for an EV. Unless major electronics failures become common (doubtful) I see these things going much farther on average than their dino burner colleagues. At least the ones with decent range that will see frequent highway mileage.

Given how many of them there are and how much power they make and all of that, I'd be surprised if the aftermarket didn't keep a high percentage of these on the road with dubious Chinese battery replacements. Kids will still drop 5 G's on a beat-ass old WRX that needs a TON just to have some power and a neat "whip," making a non-wrecked WRX a rare thing to be scrapped. In a similar way, I can't imagine a handsome car with almost M4 levels of performance or more being condemned at any point for less than it's current value in repairs.
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Old 02-25-2019, 01:19 PM   #41
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All cars will be EVs eventually, and they even predict we won't even drive them too.
My 20-something kids don't care much about cars, not like we did in the past,
so for them, they are appliances, and more so for my grandkids.

But wtf is a 'e-boxer', that is just a non-sequitur. Maybe Chevron will sell 'premium' electrons at their charge station?
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Old 02-25-2019, 02:08 PM   #42
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no you are wrong again about me. You spew the same rhetoric back at me and anybody else who dares question the validity of these vehicles. I merely point out a likely scenario, that they are disposable, and your butt hurt o meter pegs into triggered mode.

Then you do your best to label me. As if I needed a label, but it seems that a label can make an easier target for you to understand. Your leaf is a appliance in my eyes. No number crunching and ranting about how its solar powered will ever change the fact that to me it a laughable vehicle. What is juvenile is why you care about what a total stranger things of your car. Who cares what I think. I certainly do not care what you or anybody else things about me. If people agree with my words, fine, if not, hey that is fine as well. Who am I do tell them or you what to think. I certainly will not stop commenting as I enjoy it. I can only offer an opinion.

As usual you neglect to notice how I gave a big thumbs up to the Kona EV, you did not mutter a word of "hey look at scrap" - not that I care either way, just making a point.

fact is all newer cars made today and especially EV will be disposable, throw away and replace with the next shiniest new thing. WHy? Because the value of a used car depreciates so quickly. What depreciates faster than an EV? A cheeseburger or maybe cheap watch.

People treat things largely in part to how hard it was to obtain. If you pay a fortune for something you not only defend your purchase as the smartest thing ever (cough Model S) but you will defend it to the death. Conversely, when people pay peanuts for things, like used Leafs or I3's they tend to treat them as cheap disposable things that you ride until the wheels fall off and then walk away after they die.

Just a fact of human nature. Be it labor or a new smart phone, or a video game controller, if it was easy to obtain, you then to cast it aside with little thought.

Until the resale of all EV gets much better they will be treated as disposable appliances. Feel free to disagree or not.... matters not.

If I cared what you or anyone thought about any of my vehicles I wouldn't have them. The fact that I own them, pay for them, etc, = means me not giving a flying F what friends, colleagues, or strangers think of what I do with my money. I've taken flack for the Leaf since day 1, especially in the office. Yet I still own and drive it daily so what does that tell you? I don't think it's the best thing or best car by any stretch. I think it's great for what it is, what its' purpose is, etc. Nil running cost, and nearly nil fuel cost just to mention a couple of things. Laughable to you? Great, I'm laughing too, all the way to the bank. Besides spending $0 to power it, it's taking miles off my other vehicles, in spades. Best car decision I've ever made.

It's not an opinion of you, it's a fact dude. You go out of your way, on here, to end up in every single EV thread, thrashing and trashing, for many, many years on end. You spend an awful lot of time griping about the things and that you hate them, what they represent, the whole 9. I could set my watch by you doing this, literally. Tesla thread, EV thread, either way, or both. Trust me I'm not the only one who sees it. I don't know you, I'm not your shrink and it isn't a judgement on you. It's a certifiable fact as it relates to these cars only. You rag, and rag, incessantly, years on end. We get it. We got it 5 years ago.

And you talking about people treating vehicles as disposable? You swap vehicles more often than anyone here? That's a bit hypocritical of you to start slanging that mess when you are the numero uno of that very behavior, at least here. You post about your buys, trades, etc, to the point of having your own website discussing the subject. People treat them as disposable huh? Well you are at the top of that list. I decided a long time ago to only buy what I plan on keeping long term so I'm not in that argument. I won't even buy anything anymore unless I plan on keeping it for the duration. If you are discussing the public as a whole, specifically the common mouf breather I will agree with you there. There is a lot of people who must get the new phone, game console, computer, car, whatever, every year. EV has nothing to do with that. They do that with many consumer products and as it pertains to vehicles, doesn't matter if it's an EV or ICE vehicle. 2-3 years and the new shining thing gets them.

I will start believing your statements and you in general the day you don't come into EV threads and take dumps. Until then........
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Old 02-25-2019, 02:34 PM   #43
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If I cared what you or anyone thought about any of my vehicles I wouldn't have them. The fact that I own them, pay for them, etc, = means me not giving a flying F what friends, colleagues, or strangers think of what I do with my money. I've taken flack for the Leaf since day 1, especially in the office. Yet I still own and drive it daily so what does that tell you? I don't think it's the best thing or best car by any stretch. I think it's great for what it is, what its' purpose is, etc. Nil running cost, and nearly nil fuel cost just to mention a couple of things. Laughable to you? Great, I'm laughing too, all the way to the bank. Besides spending $0 to power it, it's taking miles off my other vehicles, in spades. Best car decision I've ever made.

It's not an opinion of you, it's a fact dude. You go out of your way, on here, to end up in every single EV thread, thrashing and trashing, for many, many years on end. You spend an awful lot of time griping about the things and that you hate them, what they represent, the whole 9. I could set my watch by you doing this, literally. Tesla thread, EV thread, either way, or both. Trust me I'm not the only one who sees it. I don't know you, I'm not your shrink and it isn't a judgement on you. It's a certifiable fact as it relates to these cars only. You rag, and rag, incessantly, years on end. We get it. We got it 5 years ago.

And you talking about people treating vehicles as disposable? You swap vehicles more often than anyone here? That's a bit hypocritical of you to start slanging that mess when you are the numero uno of that very behavior, at least here. You post about your buys, trades, etc, to the point of having your own website discussing the subject. People treat them as disposable huh? Well you are at the top of that list. I decided a long time ago to only buy what I plan on keeping long term so I'm not in that argument. I won't even buy anything anymore unless I plan on keeping it for the duration. If you are discussing the public as a whole, specifically the common mouf breather I will agree with you there. There is a lot of people who must get the new phone, game console, computer, car, whatever, every year. EV has nothing to do with that. They do that with many consumer products and as it pertains to vehicles, doesn't matter if it's an EV or ICE vehicle. 2-3 years and the new shining thing gets them.

I will start believing your statements and you in general the day you don't come into EV threads and take dumps. Until then........
this is a great idea...I should look into doing that.
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Old 02-25-2019, 03:10 PM   #44
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Pre is more passionate about Scrap’s opinion than anyone ever has been passionate about EV vehicles.
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Old 02-25-2019, 03:12 PM   #45
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Pre is more passionate about Scrap’s opinion than anyone ever has been passionate about EV vehicles.
I evoke emotions in people they do not even understand.

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Old 02-25-2019, 03:17 PM   #46
4S-TURBO
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I evoke emotions in people they do not even understand.

For nearly 20 years. Nick should retire you with a nice gold watch or BBS wheel.
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Old 02-25-2019, 03:20 PM   #47
unclemat
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I just bought an EV, earlier than I planned, and I totally get it now. 2019 BMW i3, not only perfect city commuter car, but actually a fun thing to drive.

Folks talk about EV depreciation but keep in mind buying incentives. I got incredible deal - $19.25k before taxes and after rebates (taxes on $~28k). $45k sticker. 2015 i3 seem to go for $15-17k, and these have half the battery and range that the 2019 has. Even if I sell it for $15k in 3 years, that's tremendously low TCO, especially that I can charge for free in my town (at least for now).

I like the car so much I am wondering about keeping it longer. What scares me is BMW repair costs outside warranty, and these cars have particularly complex battery cooling system (tied to AC). I will see in 3 years.

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Old 02-25-2019, 03:24 PM   #48
4S-TURBO
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Put a truck bed on the back and presto, instapapalarity.
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Old 02-25-2019, 03:52 PM   #49
SCRAPPYDO
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
For nearly 20 years. Nick should retire you with a nice gold watch or BBS wheel.
Dear God, it has been nearly 20 years.

Man I need a drink.... Some good times man.. some good times.
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:17 PM   #50
Hondaslayer
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Simply a navigation update is one thing, but I am referring more to the processing power of the computer. Teslas currently have various complex systems that are being tweaked such as its self driving system. I am sure as self driving gets better, the algorithms used by the system are going to get more and more complex. In 2033, your 2013 Model S might not have the computing power for this latest software. It comes down to how much you value your safety. Would you want a car with more primitive self driving techniques, or slower reaction times? Additionally, Teslas have that feature where you can operate the car like a remote controlled vehicle, essentially allowing an outside source to wirelessly control all systems of the car. Let's say the computers in a 2013 Model S are not being supported with the latest updates in 2033. Updates often contain security measures, that also require advanced computing power over time. If some exploit is found and Tesla never releases an update for their out of date cars, your car is vulnerable to someone gaining access to the car and driving it away, or worse, changing things like throttle input or steering while you are driving.

I see where you are coming from with your point about a 2013 nav, but Teslas are much more complex, and a very different beast.
Again, this has dick to do with anything. The car will still operate as well as it did the day it was built, and likely even better. It's not like a phone where Safari is no longer supported and crashes when you try to view a video. Again, most modern cars are all DBW, literally the only difference is the ICE is now electric and the gas tank is a battery. The same worries about hacking etc.... are present in any car today.
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