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06-24-2018, 02:21 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
New engine spooling 1-1.5k slower than old one...
I am having an issue with very late spool on my new build.
I installed the brand new Dom 1.5XT-R when changing my setup to run the 2.5i intake manifold this past winter. The turbo ran great and was making 22psi by 3700 on 93 with the stock exhaust mani. The motor had been consuming oil and a compression test told me I had ring issues on cylinder 2. I got in touch with Craig @ Woolman Performance and he got a block built up for me and my heads refreshed. I am now running a built block, KillerB Holy Headers and on E85 and not hitting 22psi until 4500-4700. New engine is fully broken in and just hit 4k miles. The only thing I can think of that could have caused damage to the otherwise new turbo is: On first startup I had a bad leak at the turbo/pass-side AVCS port at the head. The leak didn't get noticed until halfway through the 20min planned idle. Wondering if the turbo could have been oil starved leaving the bearings to be damaged? *****Updated 8/17***** What I know: - 0 boost leaks from turbo outlet - intake manifold - 0 pre-turbo exhaust leaks. New ewg was purchased & installed as part of troubleshooting. Verified fire ring is installed and seated. - Not boost control related. Running WG pressure yields same results. - Not tune related. Started a new tune w/ Mike Botti and he confirmed nothing else can be done tuning-wise to increase boost response. - Not engine related. Perfect compression & leakdown. -Turbo has no in/out or side/side shaft play and is not smoking or burning oil. No scratches from turbine contacting housing. Compression Test Results 140,140,140,140 Leakdown Test Results 1%,2%,5%,1% Boost Leak Test Results Turbo - Heads 0 leaks @ 24psi Here is a Google Drive folder with WOT logs of both the old motor and new. https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...nE?usp=sharing
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Last edited by pearson222; 08-17-2018 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Added updated items that have been checked |
06-24-2018, 08:57 PM | #2 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
Any ideas?
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06-25-2018, 11:32 AM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 416107
Join Date: Mar 2015
Chapter/Region:
International
Location: Ontario, Canada
Vehicle:2002 WRX Wagon EJ207 Spec C 4EAT |
probably a break-in tune. contact the builder/tuner and ask if he turned it down while you break in the motor
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06-25-2018, 12:05 PM | #4 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 372777
Join Date: Nov 2013
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Compton, CA
Vehicle:2014 WRX Sedan Lmtd WRB |
interested to see what is causing it.
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06-26-2018, 10:04 PM | #5 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
I have been working with my tuner trying to track down the cause and he is also stumped. We flashed my old tune that was making 20+ psi by 3700 and still spool super slow.
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06-26-2018, 10:05 PM | #6 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
I swapped in a brand new Tial EWG this afternoon and no change.
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06-26-2018, 10:30 PM | #7 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 479808
Join Date: Dec 2017
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Bucks county Pa
Vehicle:02 Impreza wrx 2.0 Grey |
If the turbo is bigger then last then possible lag spool, or maybe bigger injectors needed to match the flow rate gor the boost.
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06-26-2018, 10:34 PM | #8 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 90539
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: SWLA
Vehicle:My BOV goes COVFEFE! |
Still seems like a pre turbo or boost leak, I wouldn't believe that manifold alone would cause that much lag. I see you already checked for that... Could be a tuning issue as well, as mentioned.
Last edited by 2slofouru; 06-26-2018 at 10:59 PM. |
06-28-2018, 03:05 AM | #9 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 29292
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Orange County CA
Vehicle:2004 WRX wagon silver |
so when you did your boost leak test, did you pressurize with smoke or did you just try the spray and watch for bubbles?
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06-30-2018, 09:38 PM | #10 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
The setup is unchanged except for the KillerB headers and e85. Both of which should help spool quite a bit.
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06-30-2018, 09:39 PM | #11 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
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07-01-2018, 06:41 AM | #12 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 479808
Join Date: Dec 2017
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Bucks county Pa
Vehicle:02 Impreza wrx 2.0 Grey |
check ignition, spark plugs, coil packs, etc...ignition is key in turbo vehicles
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07-02-2018, 07:49 AM | #13 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 459799
Join Date: Dec 2016
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What year car model is this?
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07-02-2018, 08:32 AM | #14 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
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07-02-2018, 05:51 PM | #15 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 459799
Join Date: Dec 2016
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New engine spooling 1-1.5k slower than old one...
So I was curious about year because there are a couple things that changed from earlier years. My initial thought is backed now that I have had the chance to view your logs. Your throttle is where I see a major issue. Either your throttle body is dead or dying, or your adapter that has been used for your new intake manifold is stopping or slowing the throttle plate movement. My bet is more on the throttle body dying; although it could be a low voltage signal.
Your throttle appears to take more than double the time to open 100% and in turn your engine is not able to increase load as well. I would recommend looking into this. DBW throttle bodies do very weird things when they fail. |
07-03-2018, 08:50 AM | #16 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
How are you able to tell that from my logs? It does make me curious because while the engine was out I extended the wires to the throttle body by 5-6". I soldered and heatshrinked all connections. Wondering if that could have anything to do with it.
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07-03-2018, 10:09 AM | #17 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 476573
Join Date: Oct 2017
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Lovettsville, Virginia
Vehicle:2008 Impreza WRX STi Silver |
Quote:
I'd probe those wires and see if you have proper voltage with the key on and check continuity through those wires. |
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07-03-2018, 10:33 AM | #18 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 459799
Join Date: Dec 2016
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Looking at the cells that run vertical on the left of the log and I believe the first column is time; whether or not it is the actual time of the pull matched to the other is to be seen.
That said it sounds like this is where the problem is. Solder often times adds resistance let alone it is known to fail over time. If memory serves me right the throttle is run on 5v so any resistance there would generate a massive change in function. |
07-03-2018, 02:27 PM | #19 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 473263
Join Date: Aug 2017
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: Maine
Vehicle:2011 WRX SWP |
Quote:
knowledge is power, can I have some? |
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07-03-2018, 04:45 PM | #20 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 459799
Join Date: Dec 2016
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New engine spooling 1-1.5k slower than old one...
If you look at column A vs column S in both logs this is time vs throttle opening you can see the throttle delay. On the old log it shows the throttle open 100% at row 29 I believe it was less than 3000 milliseconds. On the new log it doesn’t show throttle at 100% until about row 69 which was more than 6000 milliseconds.
Considering, ideally, that both logs were preformed in the same way this is an obvious difference from the old to new engine/log. Timing could almost be ignored completely as it may not be the same, but even the interval numbers on the throttle log shows something. The problem here is that it is taking longer to build boost. If you are trying to accelerate/spool as quickly as possible the log should show the majority of the time throttle wide open at 100%. The new log shows the throttle open and actually fluctuate shutting a bit then reopening until 100%. Note: common sense can be used as well. If everything has been test with no boost or exhaust leaks and everything else has been checked out okay the only thing between the turbo spooling and the engine accelerating is either the throttle plate or a post turbo restriction i.e. a plugged CAT. Last edited by bp05obxt; 07-03-2018 at 04:55 PM. |
07-03-2018, 05:40 PM | #21 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 361325
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region:
E. Canada
Location: Ontario
Vehicle:2010 STi Dark Gray Metallic |
Since boost reading in the intake is indicative of back pressure, perhaps the reduced boost reading at a given RPM is due to the lower restriction on the intake side. I'd be curious what the mass air flow readings would be for the two setups; lower boost but higher mass air would make sense for reduced exhaust back pressure due to, say, your new headers.
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07-05-2018, 02:47 PM | #22 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 473263
Join Date: Aug 2017
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: Maine
Vehicle:2011 WRX SWP |
Quote:
Another variable is how quickly the throttle is rolled into. That will vary pull to pull as well. Once he hit 100% throttle it stays there for the entire pull on both runs. I don't think with what you are pointing out for the time difference will tell anyone anything about what has changed with the car physically. Only that it was driven slightly different. I thought you may have been comparing one column to another as if there is a sensor on the pedal and one on the throttle plate and there was a noticeable delay between the two columns. I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk as that is not my intention and by all means he could have a problem with the throttle wires I just don't think this is solid evidence to support the theory. I'm interested in this topic as I too am seemingly having boost come on later than it used to (used to be about 3500rpm now about 4200rpm) and I'm trying to sort it out. I'm also having a minor knock event during full boost(varies between the 4500-7000k range) that was never there before. The only real delta that I can see for me is that the ambient temps is a lot hotter(80-95°F vs 40-60°F) than it used to be for the logs I have pulled previously. I haven't found any pre-turbo exhaust leaks or boost leaks anywhere. One seemingly stupid question for the OP. Both logs are pulling in the same gear correct? I find that my lower gears boost builds up later in the rpm range. Likely because it revs a lot faster in lower gears. |
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07-06-2018, 01:47 AM | #23 | |
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Member#: 459799
Join Date: Dec 2016
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Quote:
I see your point and maybe my choice of wording wasn’t the best; because I do agree to a point. I mentioned timing as in a reference to the time of the log , and that it could probably ignored if just looking at the throttle characteristics. In my experience logs and other things such as Dyno runs. Are fairly straightforward and can become routine. My assumption that both logs were done in the exact same way may have been an over-step, but we were informed both logs were to represent nearly identical conditions I drew my idea of what it was that could be the issue. I still stand by the fact that the logs could show something odd with the throttle simply due to the obvious fluctuations. That being said maybe the log was done with a gear change; I only look at this on a phone so I haven’t spent the time checking that against rpm on the log. To be honest my hunch was always on something being erratic with the throttle; so I can admit I was looking for something to show some evidence of that. I have dealt with a throttle body failure that plagued a car for over a year that aligned with this somewhat. I do like your point about sensor correlation between pedal and throttle body. I believe the throttle body contains the sensor that will be interpreted through the ecu, but I never thought about the actual pedal electronics. It would be entirely possible for that to become a failure point in this equation, but I think it would be noticeable in other ways. I don’t know just speculating on that idea. Problems like these can be hard enough to figure out even with the car right in front of you. It would be ignorant of me to think there isn’t any other possible problem. No offense taken; I appreciate the input as does the OP I am sure. As for your car I would be interested to know more about it if you create a new post on it or hang around this one. Every part plays a role so knowing what your working with could help. Note: boost builds from load due to more fuel yada yada... Simply put you are correct; lower gears do spool slower/later because the lower the gear the less load they apply. This is why you can pull out from a stop in 1st but if you tried in 3rd it is next to impossible. |
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07-06-2018, 10:55 PM | #24 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 393782
Join Date: Jun 2014
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Vehicle:2004 WRX EWG E85 2006 RPW STi |
Both logs are 4th gear pulls. I tore off the throttle body to inspect the adapter and it all appears normal. Also as a precaution I ordered a new throttle body connector with pigtail so that I could eliminate my soldered connections. That’s made no difference. The car drives like it has a boost leak. It doesn’t want to make boost unless forced. But there are no leaks...I am really stumped. A Dom 1.5 with ELH and EWG on e85 should be making 20+psi before 4.7k in 3rd and 4th gear period.
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07-07-2018, 03:12 PM | #25 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 356215
Join Date: May 2013
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Do you have logs with both avcs intake L/R selected?
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