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Old 01-18-2020, 02:37 PM   #401
WRXnick16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
This article seems to disagree with you a bit. Your definition of "run circles around" doesn't take much I guess.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/attack...-ar176584.html
Just for some comparisons from Car and Driver's VIR times:

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'08 S2000 CR 3:15.0
'15 WRX 3:15.5
'15 Mustang EcoBoost 3:15.6
'19 Miata RF Club 3:17.2
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

I think it really comes down to tires and the track. It would be interesting to see what the lighter ST Miata Club would do with PS4S tires like the BRZ tS. The Miata is down 24 hp, but nearly 500 lbs lighter.

Weight-to-Power:
BRZ tS: ~13.7 lbs/hp
Miata Club: ~12.9 lbs/hp
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:26 PM   #402
neg_matnik
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Subaru should make a 2.0 version of their H6 motor for this car. tax compliance with a more interesting experience.
Add 2 cylinders to FB16 and we could get a 2.4L H6 that would easily out rev FA20 (assuming FB16 uses the same 129.3mm rods with a 82 mm H6 crank).
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:35 PM   #403
JP Chestnut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Just for some comparisons from Car and Driver's VIR times:

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'08 S2000 CR 3:15.0
'15 WRX 3:15.5
'15 Mustang EcoBoost 3:15.6
'19 Miata RF Club 3:17.2
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

I think it really comes down to tires and the track. It would be interesting to see what the lighter ST Miata Club would do with PS4S tires like the BRZ tS. The Miata is down 24 hp, but nearly 500 lbs lighter.

Weight-to-Power:
BRZ tS: ~13.7 lbs/hp
Miata Club: ~12.9 lbs/hp
The brz is pretty impressive for a car without a ton of power using parts bin suspension parts pulled from an econo car line.

I think a top line brz with a near sti or wrx engine makes a lot of sense. The parts are there already developed. They just need to fit them to a different transmission. The ts version already has brembos, better than an sti Sachs dampers, and really nice seats. Itís a really compelling car to me.
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:50 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Add 2 cylinders to FB16 and we could get a 2.4L H6 that would easily out rev FA20 (assuming FB16 uses the same 129.3mm rods with a 82 mm H6 crank).
A 6 cylinder might ruin the handling because of wt distribution, size and turning radius.
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Old 01-18-2020, 05:52 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Just for some comparisons from Car and Driver's VIR times:

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'08 S2000 CR 3:15.0
'15 WRX 3:15.5
'15 Mustang EcoBoost 3:15.6
'19 Miata RF Club 3:17.2
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

I think it really comes down to tires and the track. It would be interesting to see what the lighter ST Miata Club would do with PS4S tires like the BRZ tS. The Miata is down 24 hp, but nearly 500 lbs lighter.

Weight-to-Power:
BRZ tS: ~13.7 lbs/hp
Miata Club: ~12.9 lbs/hp
Back to our discussion with the BRZ vs the Mustang EB. If it is already capable of being faster, why would it be less so with more power?
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Old 01-18-2020, 06:04 PM   #406
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So Subaru spent a lot of time engineering the chassis / body of the current BRZ to be extremely low. They moved a ton of parts around to drop the engine lower, strut tops lower, hood lower, driver’s seat lower, dash lower, etc. all of which makes it what it is - an epic handler. They also had to make a ton of engineering choices to move the engine as far back as they did.
With Toyota building all of this, this time, are we even going to have that same level of rigor to get things as low, and weight dist as rear biased as possible? Subaru worked to lower all sorts of stuff on the top of the engine so the hood could get even lower.
There’s no way a TMIC would fit in there. If the engine does get an FA24DIT, it’d have to be a FMIC.
Whatever they do, it’ll be interesting to compare the handling dynamics of old vs new.
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Old 01-18-2020, 06:11 PM   #407
jimmi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
So Subaru spent a lot of time engineering the chassis / body of the current BRZ to be extremely low. They moved a ton of parts around to drop the engine lower, strut tops lower, hood lower, driverís seat lower, dash lower, etc. all of which makes it what it is - an epic handler. They also had to make a ton of engineering choices to move the engine as far back as they did.
With Toyota building all of this, this time, are we even going to have that same level of rigor to get things as low, and weight dist as rear biased as possible? Subaru worked to lower all sorts of stuff on the top of the engine so the hood could get even lower.
Thereís no way a TMIC would fit in there. If the engine does get an FA24DIT, itíd have to be a FMIC.
Whatever they do, itíll be interesting to compare the handling dynamics of old vs new.
Wt of a FMIC in a 2900 lb car is probably negligible.
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:34 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmi View Post
Back to our discussion with the BRZ vs the Mustang EB. If it is already capable of being faster, why would it be less so with more power?
Yes, the limited edition (500 units), top trim BRZ is faster than the base EcoBoost. The newer, more powerful EcoBoost with the Performance & Handling Packages should easily gain 5-10 seconds.

Compare the BRZ Performance Package vs BRZ tS. The BRZ PP already has the larger Brembo brakes & SACHS dampers. The tS is almost 6 seconds faster with just retuned dampers/springs, chassis bracing, & stickier tires compared to the BRZ PP.. with 0 power increase.

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

The EcoBoost PP/HP adds 20+ hp, a broader torque curve, 9.5" wheels w/ 30mm wider/stickier tires, track tuned MagneRide adjustable suspension, larger 4 piston brakes from the GT, torsen LSD, upgraded sway bars, and chassis bracing. That will almost certainly yield a 5+ second improvement putting it in the sub 3:10 range. You can see these types of mods & gains across many models.

'15 Mustang GT 3:05.2
'18 Mustang GT PP2 2:53.8 (11.4 seconds w/ similar treatment as the EcoBoost PP/HP +25 HP, better brakes, suspension, tires, etc.)

'15 WRX 3:15.5
'18 WRX PP 3:11.5 (4 seconds with just upgraded Brembo brakes, same power)

'15 STI 3:10.5
'18 STI Type RA 3:04.9 (5.6 seconds with a slight power bump & upgrades to brakes, suspension, etc.)

A turbo BRZ certainly has the ability to be faster. I hope Toyobaru delivers and we get a FA24DIT/D-4S BRZ track weapon that crushes the EcoBoost HP/PP for a reasonable price.. time will tell. Will they allow it to approach the level of the STI & Supra? A budget, manual trans Supra with a backseat would be great
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:31 PM   #409
Brahmzy
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
I hope Toyobaru delivers and we get a FA24DIT/D-4S BRZ track weapon that crushes the EcoBoost HP/PP for a reasonable price
Amen brutha!
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Old 01-19-2020, 11:32 AM   #410
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More rumors (from a site mod on the BRZ forums):

“OK so here's some minor but actual insider information.

2nd Gen BRZ enters production in the Spring of 2021, so likely Summer 2021 for the first deliveries. 86 should be the same of course.

Next gen WRX enters production in the Fall of 2021. Next gen STI enters production in the Fall of 2022.

No other details yet. Subaru is good about keeping real details tightly controlled but the above was officially released today, internally anyways. At least it gives people an approx target for those deciding to buy now or wait to see the 2nd gen.”
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:35 PM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
The FA in the twins is just an economy motor with a ton of fuelling thrown at it. It NEEDS headers and a tune to run right, and wakes up even more with flex fuel.

But the torque is actually the big issue and why it needs a turbo. A flat 6 would be great too, but that would put more weight over the front and hurt the ballance. So the right way to go is just a turbo motor.
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I wish 48 volt mild hybrids would become a thing today.
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Old Yesterday, 08:55 PM   #412
Calamity Jesus
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that 's, like, your
alternate facts, man.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
This article seems to disagree with you a bit. Your definition of "run circles around" doesn't take much I guess.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/attack...-ar176584.html
The heaviest ND with the weakest engine. Very compelling.
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Old Today, 02:18 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
.....Even a base model MX-5 will run circles around a loaded BRZ and feel better doing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
The heaviest ND with the weakest engine. Very compelling.
Then why'd you bring it up?
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