Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday March 22, 2023
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-01-2022, 11:20 AM   #1326
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: snoco wa
Vehicle:
20 Yami XSR
fast leaf

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
This has become a pp section. Look through all the threads lol
cars aren't just built to be cars any more. Too many regulations making them what they are. It's literally impossible discussing what cars are today without recognizing and having some sort of feelings about the regulations that have driven us to where we are. Talking about these regulations isn't quite PP, imo. Sometimes those conversations stray though...
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 12-01-2022, 11:22 AM   #1327
Pre
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 139693
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle:
Dura ngo 95
horrorshow

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samagon View Post
take it to PP, or calm down before someone decides we can't have this thread.
Itíll be the 2nd time a thread on this car, on here, has been locked.
Pre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 11:58 AM   #1328
samagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 26859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: undisputed COMBAT! champion
Vehicle:
of TXIC
I also like (oYo)!!!!

Default

I think that the best thing that can happen is that Toyota decides to build more of these cars based on the demand, and then also raises prices to compensate for the lower volume of other cars they can't make because they need to increase production here.

stay the course for year 1, bump the core cost up to 39,995 (before packages), but add the seat material and hood from the circuit and increase production.

but hey, at the end of the day, we're so early in the actual delivery of this car, and add to that the delivery is actually delayed by a bit more than a month from where it was expected, and you have what we have right now. spring (plus economy) may paint a completely different picture.
samagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 01:24 PM   #1329
Kostamojen
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2272
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fire Caves
Vehicle:
2019 Macan 4cyl
1993 Impreza FWD WRX swap

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
cars aren't just built to be cars any more. Too many regulations making them what they are. It's literally impossible discussing what cars are today without recognizing and having some sort of feelings about the regulations that have driven us to where we are. Talking about these regulations isn't quite PP, imo. Sometimes those conversations stray though...
But markups aren't caused by government regulations. Quite the opposite. It's the independent dealership groups/owners that are basically middle-men in the process causing the markups.

If dealerships were direct-sale models (like in other countries), there would be no markups. And no, eliminating the 5 or so rich people in your region who own dealerships from the equation DOES NOT lead to a ton of unemployed people, because the street level jobs at dealerships still need to exist to get cars to customers and maintain them as well.

The NADA special interest group who represents said rich owners, has its teeth deep in American policy/politics already so its not going to change anytime soon either.
Kostamojen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 01:37 PM   #1330
FaastLegacy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 11671
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samagon View Post
I think that the best thing that can happen is that Toyota decides to build more of these cars based on the demand, and then also raises prices to compensate for the lower volume of other cars they can't make because they need to increase production here.

stay the course for year 1, bump the core cost up to 39,995 (before packages), but add the seat material and hood from the circuit and increase production.

but hey, at the end of the day, we're so early in the actual delivery of this car, and add to that the delivery is actually delayed by a bit more than a month from where it was expected, and you have what we have right now. spring (plus economy) may paint a completely different picture.
I'd be perfectly fine with a $39k sticker for the Core if it meant they built more and I could get my hands on one.

Unfortunately, Toyota doesn't seem to oppose their dealers jacking up the price like Ford and Subaru do.
FaastLegacy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 01:48 PM   #1331
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: snoco wa
Vehicle:
20 Yami XSR
fast leaf

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
But markups aren't caused by government regulations. Quite the opposite. It's the independent dealership groups/owners that are basically middle-men in the process causing the markups.

If dealerships were direct-sale models (like in other countries), there would be no markups. And no, eliminating the 5 or so rich people in your region who own dealerships from the equation DOES NOT lead to a ton of unemployed people, because the street level jobs at dealerships still need to exist to get cars to customers and maintain them as well.

The NADA special interest group who represents said rich owners, has its teeth deep in American policy/politics already so its not going to change anytime soon either.
The dealership model still exists only because it's written into law, and therefore will always have a political spin. Current law protects dealers, not consumers, in this markup battle. Drop the dealership model and let manufacturers sell their cars at MSRP. Everyone just gets in line and gets the car when it's made, just like how every other consumer product works. Want to flip one on the used market for more money, like a concert ticket? Sure, where there's demand go for it. But instead, it's codified. Could you imagine if we made a law that forced concert tickets to be sold by scalpers? Because that's basically what we have going right now... My apologies to any car salesman for drawing the analogy to ticket scalpers, but really, that's what it's turning into.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 01:56 PM   #1332
Kostamojen
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2272
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fire Caves
Vehicle:
2019 Macan 4cyl
1993 Impreza FWD WRX swap

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
The dealership model still exists only because it's written into law, and therefore will always have a political spin. Current law protects dealers, not consumers, in this markup battle. Drop the dealership model and let manufacturers sell their cars at MSRP. Everyone just gets in line and gets the car when it's made, just like how every other consumer product works. Want to flip one on the used market for more money, like a concert ticket? Sure, where there's demand go for it. But instead, it's codified. Could you imagine if we made a law that forced concert tickets to be sold by scalpers? Because that's basically what we have going right now... My apologies to any car salesman for drawing the analogy to ticket scalpers, but really, that's what it's turning into.
Its not just what its turned into, its been that corrupt for decades, we just get to see it in every transaction now.
Kostamojen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 02:19 PM   #1333
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:
... 2017 BMW M2
2017 F-150

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
Someone just sent pics to the TFL channel I believe it was on YouTube of a dealer with 20k and 30k market adjustment fees on the window sticker for a Sequoia and Tundra respectively. Remember we live in ďfree market rules Murica!Ē land, so this price gauging will continue to happen with no consumer protection or regulations on such things because ďKoMuNiSM broooĒ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
Then stop complaining about gas prices or price of food or anything else, you can stop putting gas in your vehicle and just walk or stop buying food and just grow your own or start hunting, see how dumb that logic isÖStop complaining about inflation, stop complaining about financial collapses, stop complaining about the likes of Enron or FTX or any other crony scumbag committing fraud with these unscrupulous practices allowed under the banner of deregulation and free market works. Just stop complaining about things that you preach and enjoy your **** sandwich sir.
These two are nothing alike.

First off, no one needs a new tundra or sequoia, people want them. There are people out there dumb enough to pay ADM fees, let them. Prior to supply chain issues, those vehicles were at or below MSRP. The government doesnít need to step in and block ADM on wants and nice to have purchases.

Fuel, food, etc are necessities not want to have and thus warranted of government protection from price gauging.

Your comment is about as ridiculous as me saying the government should step in and reduce the cost of a 911 turbo / gt3 because itís simply too expensive.

On luxury items, the free market works. If people continue to pay ADM for vehicles then let them. Eventually that portion of the market dries up and dealers, in order to move vehicles, will remove ADM, discount etc to gain business.
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 02:34 PM   #1334
4S-TURBO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 67807
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Default

OR just eliminate car dealers entirely.
4S-TURBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 02:56 PM   #1335
mcarb002
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 324784
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
2019 Forester Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
These two are nothing alike.

First off, no one needs a new tundra or sequoia, people want them. There are people out there dumb enough to pay ADM fees, let them. Prior to supply chain issues, those vehicles were at or below MSRP. The government doesnít need to step in and block ADM on wants and nice to have purchases.

Fuel, food, etc are necessities not want to have and thus warranted of government protection from price gauging.

Your comment is about as ridiculous as me saying the government should step in and reduce the cost of a 911 turbo / gt3 because itís simply too expensive.

On luxury items, the free market works. If people continue to pay ADM for vehicles then let them. Eventually that portion of the market dries up and dealers, in order to move vehicles, will remove ADM, discount etc to gain business.
Dude youíre reaching so hard right nowÖ.dealers arenít just marking up ďluxuryĒitems (btw lulz at you thinking Sequoias and Tundras are luxury items and comparing them to a Porsche 911/GT3), what about 80K used 2016 RAV4 and bs like that that has been seen? Or used Siennas at like 70KÖis this your free market working?? the fact is that whether itís a ďluxuryĒ item or a basic ass Corolla itís affecting people with ridiculous markups and cars are 100% a necessity in this countryÖor are you also going to say to the mom that needs a car asap that if she canít afford the 10K markup in the Corolla sheís trying to buy she should just take the 5 busses to get to her minimum wage job since a car is only a ďwantĒ. This is your free market working right? Get real man!

Last edited by mcarb002; 12-01-2022 at 03:02 PM.
mcarb002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 03:22 PM   #1336
Pre
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 139693
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle:
Dura ngo 95
horrorshow

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samagon View Post
I think that the best thing that can happen is that Toyota decides to build more of these cars based on the demand, and then also raises prices to compensate for the lower volume of other cars they can't make because they need to increase production here.

stay the course for year 1, bump the core cost up to 39,995 (before packages), but add the seat material and hood from the circuit and increase production.

but hey, at the end of the day, we're so early in the actual delivery of this car, and add to that the delivery is actually delayed by a bit more than a month from where it was expected, and you have what we have right now. spring (plus economy) may paint a completely different picture.
The Motomachi production facility is at full capacity. Build more is not going to happen and never is going to happen. So I'd just remove that from thought, ever. The GR Yaris came before the Corolla and there has been a standing 2 years wait list. In fact Toyota is producing the car, LONGER, than it had planned in order to meet demand. They are not going to produce it at another plant. It's too important to Toyota and Gazoo Racing.

The first one hasn't even been delivered to a customer yet. The Motomachi production facility had a flood (act of ma nature) earlier this year which put them behind as they had to close for weeks to a month. That's why we have not seen deliveries yet. But the first batch is here, and they have arrived at port so some customers will take delivery at the end of the month barring a strike from the train companies.

I don't want to the cost increase all because Timmy out there who is throwing all his toys out of his crib can get one sooner. Sorry Timmy, you'll need to be patient and wait. Try to be an adult Timmy instead of a child. New to market performance variants, NONE of this, is anything new. Par for the course.

Remember 3, 4 or 6 months ago when you thought you could stroll into a stealer this month, test drive, and buy? I said back then it was never going to happen and it's not going to happen.
Pre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 03:27 PM   #1337
Pre
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 139693
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle:
Dura ngo 95
horrorshow

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
These two are nothing alike.

First off, no one needs a new tundra or sequoia, people want them. There are people out there dumb enough to pay ADM fees, let them. Prior to supply chain issues, those vehicles were at or below MSRP. The government doesnít need to step in and block ADM on wants and nice to have purchases.

Fuel, food, etc are necessities not want to have and thus warranted of government protection from price gauging.

Your comment is about as ridiculous as me saying the government should step in and reduce the cost of a 911 turbo / gt3 because itís simply too expensive.

On luxury items, the free market works. If people continue to pay ADM for vehicles then let them. Eventually that portion of the market dries up and dealers, in order to move vehicles, will remove ADM, discount etc to gain business.
Correct. Itís the free market. Iím so tired of hearing people scream at the top of their lungs ďthe dealer networkĒ or ďitís the scum dealersĒ. Really? If dip**** customers refused to pay it there would be no ADM. Itís more on the consumerís responsibility side than the dealers. The dealer will sell at MSRP or below to move product. Supply and demand. Itís the stupid people who overpay for things that results in this problem. This is how a free or democratic society works. Donít like it? Then move. Go move to another country and quit crying about a non-essential consumer good. You donít need this car or any performance variant. You want it. As godfather said, this isnít food. As he also said, this ADM nonsense will dry up at some point. Iím already seeing dealer lots filling up again and damn near a full lot.
Pre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 03:34 PM   #1338
mcarb002
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 324784
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
2019 Forester Sport

Default

Imagine living in America, in Texas of all places, not NY or that general north east area, and actually thinking cars arenít essential or a necessity hahahaha canít make this up.
mcarb002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 03:55 PM   #1339
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: www.testdrivemylife.com
Vehicle:
2020 JEEP / RAM
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Correct. Itís the free market. Iím so tired of hearing people scream at the top of their lungs ďthe dealer networkĒ or ďitís the scum dealersĒ. Really? If dip**** customers refused to pay it there would be no ADM. Itís more on the consumerís responsibility side than the dealers. The dealer will sell at MSRP or below to move product. Supply and demand. Itís the stupid people who overpay for things that results in this problem. This is how a free or democratic society works. Donít like it? Then move. Go move to another country and quit crying about a non-essential consumer good. You donít need this car or any performance variant. You want it. As godfather said, this isnít food. As he also said, this ADM nonsense will dry up at some point. Iím already seeing dealer lots filling up again and damn near a full lot.
yup, discounts are appearing on full sized trucks again. 5000 off MSRP on Silverados. By March we may see 10k off.

I predict paying over sticker price will be gone by the end of 2023
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 04:14 PM   #1340
4S-TURBO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 67807
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Default

Dip**** customers are paying more buying through a dealership. That's how this works.
4S-TURBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 04:22 PM   #1341
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:
... 2017 BMW M2
2017 F-150

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
Imagine living in America, in Texas of all places, not NY or that general north east area, and actually thinking cars arenít essential or a necessity hahahaha canít make this up.
Are you this sense? People donít need a tundra, they want it. They can find dozens upon dozens of other vehicles without markup. No one NEEDS a $75k+ truck, they want it.

How is this a hard concept for you to grasp?
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 05:00 PM   #1342
mcarb002
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 324784
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
2019 Forester Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Are you this sense? People donít need a tundra, they want it. They can find dozens upon dozens of other vehicles without markup. No one NEEDS a $75k+ truck, they want it.

How is this a hard concept for you to grasp?
Okay, but people need a car, youíre the one getting hung up on the Tundra. I already made that point in my initial reply to you with the example of basic cars like Corollas and RAV4s which face the same shenanigans. You make it sound like itís exclusive to ďluxuryĒ Tundras that nobody needs. And if weíre going to go by that failed logic of not needing a car then might as well accept that we donít need 98% of the crap sold at supermarkets we can live with bread butter and water, or that we donít need washer and drier, go down to the river and wash, or we donít need electricity, buy some candles to have light, or we donít need a heater go chop some wood and light a fire. So yeah I guess we donít need a car, walk, get a horse, or get bicycle or skateboard right...

Anyway, Iím going to lay it out, so this issue on whatís happening could be understood and Iíll have my last say. This way you and others can ponder over whether this free market stuff is best thing since slice bread or not.

Truth is, that this goes beyond dealers. It comes down to the entire auto industry as a whole, theyíre committed to pivoting to becoming a smaller industry. More profitable, but producing less. Kind of like what OPEC has purposely done and hence why we saw price of crude go up. Those that can afford to pay more for new cars, thatís who theyíre going to cater for and this is what theyíve figured out. Weíre going to eventually live with whatever breadcrumb used POS we can find. The fact that most of us already find it hard to afford a souped up Corolla is tellingÖThe last 2 years, while we were told it was all due to the pandemic and the difficult years every poor manufacturing was facing, have been the most profitable in the last 10 for the automobile industry. The whole supply chain issues and chip shortages are a smoke screen used to implement this tactic by reducing supplies and jacking up prices. Dealers are just an added middle man to make matters worse. In the last year it was the highest average price of an automobile in history, 48K. Since the end of 2019, prices are up 30% for new cars while production is down 20%. Itís good ole elementary free market economics. Itís a concerted effort and strategy to purposely control supply and demand to be more profitable. But again, enjoy deregulation for this since itís not a commodity anybody needs and itís perfect free market working wonders.

Last edited by mcarb002; 12-01-2022 at 05:06 PM.
mcarb002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 05:03 PM   #1343
dwf137
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 161333
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: snoco wa
Vehicle:
20 Yami XSR
fast leaf

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Correct. It's the free market. I'm so tired of hearing people scream at the top of their lungs "the dealer network" or "it's the scum dealers". Really? If dip**** customers refused to pay it there would be no ADM. It's more on the consumer's responsibility side than the dealers. The dealer will sell at MSRP or below to move product. Supply and demand. It's the stupid people who overpay for things that results in this problem. This is how a free or democratic society works. Don't like it? Then move. Go move to another country and quit crying about a non-essential consumer good. You don't need this car or any performance variant. You want it. As godfather said, this isn't food. As he also said, this ADM nonsense will dry up at some point. I'm already seeing dealer lots filling up again and damn near a full lot.
What other consumer good do we need to deal with ADM? Please, name me one. I'll wait.

It's the gubberment's fault that we have dealers. I'm not asking the government to step in and protect me from dealers, I'm asking them to open it up to free market. Let car manufacturers compete with dealers. Let Toyota sell me a car directly instead of the government forcing me to buy through a middle man. THAT'S a free market. What we have currently is government overreach. Blows my mind how much hypocrisy is out there... gimme less government, fewer taxes... oh wait, no, let's keep this government driven dealer network, oh and yes we need to keep giving billionaires even more billions in tax breaks... seriously, pick a lane guys.

I can go buy a phone direct from the manufacturer, from a network provider, from a separate resale store, etc... and you know what, that's all done at MSRP, even when quantities are limited. People camp in line at Apple stores to be the first to get their stupid phone, but you know what, they're paying MSRP. Why? because free market and competition.

Last edited by dwf137; 12-01-2022 at 05:11 PM.
dwf137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 05:26 PM   #1344
godfather2112
Papi Chulo
Moderator
 
Member#: 53794
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Boner kill city
Vehicle:
... 2017 BMW M2
2017 F-150

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
Okay, but people need a car, youíre the one getting hung up on the Tundra. I already made that point in my initial reply to you with the example of basic cars like Corollas and RAV4s which face the same shenanigans. You make it sound like itís exclusive to ďluxuryĒ Tundras that nobody needs. And if weíre going to go by that failed logic of not needing a car then might as well accept that we donít need 98% of the crap sold at supermarkets we can live with bread butter and water, or that we donít need washer and drier, go down to the river and wash, or we donít need electricity, buy some candles to have light, or we donít need a heater go chop some wood and light a fire. So yeah I guess we donít need a car, walk, get a horse, or get bicycle or skateboard right...

Anyway, Iím going to lay it out, so this issue on whatís happening could be understood and Iíll have my last say. This way you and others can ponder over whether this free market stuff is best thing since slice bread or not.

Truth is, that this goes beyond dealers. It comes down to the entire auto industry as a whole, theyíre committed to pivoting to becoming a smaller industry. More profitable, but producing less. Kind of like what OPEC has purposely done and hence why we saw price of crude go up. Those that can afford to pay more for new cars, thatís who theyíre going to cater for and this is what theyíve figured out. Weíre going to eventually live with whatever breadcrumb used POS we can find. The fact that most of us already find it hard to afford a souped up Corolla is tellingÖThe last 2 years, while we were told it was all due to the pandemic and the difficult years every poor manufacturing was facing, have been the most profitable in the last 10 for the automobile industry. The whole supply chain issues and chip shortages are a smoke screen used to implement this tactic by reducing supplies and jacking up prices. Dealers are just an added middle man to make matters worse. In the last year it was the highest average price of an automobile in history, 48K. Since the end of 2019, prices are up 30% for new cars while production is down 20%. Itís good ole elementary free market economics. Itís a concerted effort and strategy to purposely control supply and demand to be more profitable. But again, enjoy deregulation for this since itís not a commodity anybody needs and itís perfect free market working wonders.
Um, no sir. If you listen to calls from CEOís they are all trying to ramp up production. Iím looking at cars, trucks and suvís being sold at or under msrp right now. Youíre taking 2 years off of Esther unprecedented supply chain issues and peanut butter spreading it over free market business.

Manufactures of automobiles and other goods, services, etc are racing against each other to increase production ahead of each other and steal business. Additionally, most people do not have massive incomes with plenty of disposable income. People, at least moderately financially smart people, will stop purchasing cars or whatever once they exceed their budget and companies will adjust or sales and profits fall.

Price fixing is also illegal. So now, they are not colluding together to constrain manufacturing and drive up pricing.
godfather2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 05:50 PM   #1345
Benhart21
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 149617
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Boulder-ish
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
yup, discounts are appearing on full sized trucks again. 5000 off MSRP on Silverados. By March we may see 10k off.

I predict paying over sticker price will be gone by the end of 2023
I've been browsing used Yukon Denalis and Escalades as something to scratch my LS-powered itch, and those suckers dropped $10k in a matter of weeks. Ones that were listed for $40k are now sitting at $25-29k. Things definitely appear to be on the downward slope.
Benhart21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 05:51 PM   #1346
mcarb002
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 324784
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
2019 Forester Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Um, no sir. If you listen to calls from CEOís they are all trying to ramp up production. Iím looking at cars, trucks and suvís being sold at or under msrp right now. Youíre taking 2 years off of Esther unprecedented supply chain issues and peanut butter spreading it over free market business.

Manufactures of automobiles and other goods, services, etc are racing against each other to increase production ahead of each other and steal business. Additionally, most people do not have massive incomes with plenty of disposable income. People, at least moderately financially smart people, will stop purchasing cars or whatever once they exceed their budget and companies will adjust or sales and profits fall.

Price fixing is also illegal. So now, they are not colluding together to constrain manufacturing and drive up pricing.


Price of gas has gone down a bit, I guess that means that OPEC announcing in October that they were going to continue reducing production costs as part of their strategy was fake newsÖ

Price fixing is illegal? Lol well, it sure as hell ainít enforced.

Anyway, believe whatever you want man, at least thatís definitely free. Weíll see come 2024 and beyond how the auto industry looks, if dealers are filled like they were pre Covid and selling below MSRP.
mcarb002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 07:37 PM   #1347
VarmintCong
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 379605
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Peabody, MA
Vehicle:
2017 Civic Sport
2012 Outback 2.5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
Then stop complaining about gas prices or price of food or anything else, you can stop putting gas in your vehicle and just walk or stop buying food and just grow your own or start hunting, see how dumb that logic is***8230;Stop complaining about inflation, stop complaining about financial collapses, stop complaining about the likes of Enron or FTX or any other crony scumbag committing fraud with these unscrupulous practices allowed under the banner of deregulation and free market works. Just stop complaining about things that you preach and enjoy your **** sandwich sir.
The problem is the market is not free anymore, it's government controlled. Everything you mentioned is a result of the government growing so big it has to print trillions of dollars and keep interest rates at 0% to keep itself from imploding under all its debt.

So turning to government to fix the problems it created is just insanity.

If the Fed and Washington can stop printing trillions of dollars for just a couple years, all these cars will go back to MSRP. I don't think they can do it.
VarmintCong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 07:45 PM   #1348
VarmintCong
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 379605
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Peabody, MA
Vehicle:
2017 Civic Sport
2012 Outback 2.5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
These two are nothing alike.

First off, no one needs a new tundra or sequoia, people want them. There are people out there dumb enough to pay ADM fees, let them. Prior to supply chain issues, those vehicles were at or below MSRP. The government doesn't need to step in and block ADM on wants and nice to have purchases.

Fuel, food, etc are necessities not want to have and thus warranted of government protection from price gauging.

Your comment is about as ridiculous as me saying the government should step in and reduce the cost of a 911 turbo / gt3 because it's simply too expensive.

On luxury items, the free market works. If people continue to pay ADM for vehicles then let them. Eventually that portion of the market dries up and dealers, in order to move vehicles, will remove ADM, discount etc to gain business.
You guys are both right. You could fix this problem either of two ways:

1. Get rid of the dealership model so cars are sold at MSRP, like a hot new iPhone or luxury bag. You wait in line overnight or whatever if you want it. This would be the easiest way, but as mentioned, our politicians won't do it.

2. Fix the demand bubble side, which was created by massive stimulus (0% rates for 10 years, $9 trillion in Fed printing, massive handouts, student loan and rent moratoriums etc). This bubble is being popped as we speak, but I suspect that won't last long. When the economy or markets get ugly, Washington and the Fed will go right back to a 2020-style money printing bonanza, and ADMs will be back at full force. So if you see one at MSRP next year, grab it while you can.

Last edited by VarmintCong; 12-01-2022 at 07:53 PM.
VarmintCong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 07:50 PM   #1349
VarmintCong
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 379605
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Peabody, MA
Vehicle:
2017 Civic Sport
2012 Outback 2.5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
What other consumer good do we need to deal with ADM? Please, name me one. I'll wait.

It's the gubberment's fault that we have dealers. I'm not asking the government to step in and protect me from dealers, I'm asking them to open it up to free market. Let car manufacturers compete with dealers. Let Toyota sell me a car directly instead of the government forcing me to buy through a middle man. THAT'S a free market. What we have currently is government overreach. Blows my mind how much hypocrisy is out there... gimme less government, fewer taxes... oh wait, no, let's keep this government driven dealer network, oh and yes we need to keep giving billionaires even more billions in tax breaks... seriously, pick a lane guys.

I can go buy a phone direct from the manufacturer, from a network provider, from a separate resale store, etc... and you know what, that's all done at MSRP, even when quantities are limited. People camp in line at Apple stores to be the first to get their stupid phone, but you know what, they're paying MSRP. Why? because free market and competition.
Video cards (until recently). But i agree with you. Does any other country sell cars above MSRP? Here in Taiwan some cars are like a year wait, but are sold at MSRP.
VarmintCong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2022, 08:54 PM   #1350
mcarb002
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 324784
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
2019 Forester Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
The problem is the market is not free anymore, it's government controlled. Everything you mentioned is a result of the government growing so big it has to print trillions of dollars and keep interest rates at 0% to keep itself from imploding under all its debt.

So turning to government to fix the problems it created is just insanity.

If the Fed and Washington can stop printing trillions of dollars for just a couple years, all these cars will go back to MSRP. I don't think they can do it.
So big government created the Great Depression, 08 subprime mortgage crisis, Enron, Madoff, and high tomato prices at the grocery story. Private enterprise will always do better no eff ups. Meanwhile, banks donít create most of the money in circulation by means of deposits/loans and governments can collapse on their own fiat currencyÖ..Ahaaaaaa

YeahÖ.letís just get back to GR talk.
mcarb002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2023 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.