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Old 08-11-2016, 09:55 AM   #76
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When it comes down to the actual cost of building the car, is it possible for them to make an affordable mid-engine car? I am just trying to figure out why the cost has skyrocketed. It seems like such an unnecessary move to make the corvette so expensive.
First and foremost, it's an all new ground up engineering development. There's a LOT of your cost right there.

Secondly, I haven't seen anywhere they're abandoning the front engine model just yet, just a phased approach. It would be devastating for them to introduce the new mid-engine model - and have it fail - with nothing to fall back on. Hence, offering both for a bit to see how it plays out.

I would bet there's C8 FRONT engine mules somewhere out there in addition to the Zora.

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Old 08-21-2016, 10:48 AM   #77
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Old 08-21-2016, 10:49 AM   #78
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Yeah, that was a fan photoshop
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Old 08-21-2016, 11:36 PM   #79
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And it's also horrifically ugly.
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Old 08-22-2016, 01:20 AM   #80
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Old 08-30-2016, 03:06 PM   #81
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Bob Lutz Discusses If Chevrolet ‘Needs’ A Mid-Engined Corvette

Bob Lutz is back again, and this time, he has taken the time to answer a few Road & Track readers’ questions. The highlight of them all? Whether or not Chevrolet truly needs a mid-engine Corvette.

The question comes in the context of Chevrolet one-upping long-time rival Ford and the GT. To answer Lutz stated the following:

Well, neither Chevrolet nor Cadillac “needs” a mid-engine car. A mid-engine Corvette would likely coexist with the regular model but be priced at least $30,000 to $40,000 higher, my guess, about $130,000 to $150,000. A logical assumption would be 700 to 750 hp, massive torque, and decent fuel economy. GM won’t do it unless it’s a world-beater, so we should expect it to suck the doors off all the Europeans (Veyron excluded) and the Ford GT, which, while a nice car, would soon seem poor value. A possible Cadillac execution would have to exceed the Corvette and would be priced higher. I’m all for it, and I definitely “need” at least the Corvette.

Lutz has already commented on a previous mid-engine Corvette program while he was employed by General Motors. The project was shelved at the height of the Great Recession and GM’s restructuring.

And as for Buick, Maximum Bob tackles the state of itself, too. The question references whether or not a high-horsepower, rear-wheel drive car will show up from the brand anytime soon, to which, he responds:

The Buick brand is in the best shape it’s seen for decades. Design and product excellence, especially refinement and silence, have moved the perception of Buick into genuine luxury territory. I believe a top-of-the-line rear-drive car is possible, using the Cadillac CT6 architecture. China would love that car, but it may be a low priority in the product portfolio, since everything has to be crossovers these days.
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Old 09-17-2016, 09:50 AM   #82
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Everything We Know About the Mid-Engine C8 Corvette’s Dual-Clutch Transmission

2017 Mid-Engined Chevrolet Corvette Zora (artist's rendering)

Four years ago, Chevrolet Corvette manual-transmission supplier Tremec aspired to achieve greater global reach. Instead of reinventing the helical gear to enter the thriving dual-clutch automatic transmission (DCT) business, this Mexico-based manufacturer simply shopped for a company that already possessed the expertise it needed. Tremec was drawn to Hoerbiger Drivetrain Mechatronics because of that Belgian firm’s proven relationships with Mercedes-AMG, Ferrari, and McLaren. A deal was cut and Tremec now owns Hoerbiger lock, stock, and gear hobber.

The prodigy from these two parental units is Tremec’s TR-9007 family of dual-clutch automatics that can be assembled in rear-drive, all-wheel-drive, and transaxle configurations. Prototypes of the mid-engine 2019 Chevrolet Corvette in light camouflage captured by our photographers are evidence of the testing for drivability and durability of the Tremec transaxles slated for customer delivery in 2018.

TREMEC TR-9007 Dual Clutch Automatic Transmission
Tremec engineering documents show a 9000-rpm maximum input speed and a 664-lb-ft torque capacity, both of which should cover C8 Corvette needs quite nicely. The TR-9007’s die-cast aluminum housing contains seven forward gears, three of which are overdrive ratios, and a 5.6:1 ratio spread. Tremec describes the twin engagement devices as “virtually dry wet clutches.”

DCTs use helical gears instead of a conventional automatic’s planetary gears. Because hydraulic and friction losses are generally lower than other automatics, DCTs can improve efficiency. There is no interruption of torque delivery during upshifts, so DCTs typically beat the stick-shift alternative in acceleration.

New Spy Photos! Mid-Engine Corvette Caught in Profile!
C8 in 2018: Everything We Know About the Mid-Engine C8 Corvette
Here’s How Many New Chevrolet Corvettes Have Manual Transmissions
Our suspicion is that General Motors will not follow our suggestion to Save the Manuals due to the cost and complexity of offering two transmissions. In other words, Tremec’s TR-9007 seven-speed DCT will be the one and only transmission available when the 2019 Corvette arrives in less than two years.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/everyth...-transmission/
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:31 AM   #83
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Thanks Avanti. Very interesting read. I would say, given the demographic of the Corvette buyer I am not surprised if the manual is dropped all together.
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Old 09-17-2016, 01:37 PM   #84
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Thanks Avanti. Very interesting read. I would say, given the demographic of the Corvette buyer I am not surprised if the manual is dropped all together.
I don't think demographic has anything to do with it. Data shows today's high performance DCT's offer significant performance improvements over a manual transmission. If GM is setting out to build a significant improvement with the new generation Corvette they can't use a manual transmission.

I was fortunate enough to attend a local Porsche Driving Experience event last Wednesday. Porsche's head instructor from their driving school in Alabama said he drove a manual and PDK equipped Carrera S back-to-back around Barber Motorsports Park and was an average of 2 seconds per lap faster with the PDK. Porsche advertises the PDK equipped car to be 0.4 seconds faster to 60 mph.

GM's existing 8-spd auto available in the Z06 is already advertised to shift faster than Porsche's PDK. Imagine what a proper DCT might offer in this newest Corvette. Yes, there are purists among us who want a manual transmission because we feel it is more fun to drive as there is more driver involvement. I opted for a manual transmission in my Cayman for this very reason. That doesn't change the fact that when a manufacturer builds a sports car these days and they want to offer the best possible performance a manual transmission is no longer the best option. If it were the best option one would think that the McLaren P1, Porsche 918, Ferrari The Ferrari, and other hypercars would come with a manual transmission.
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Old 09-17-2016, 02:24 PM   #85
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I don't think demographic has anything to do with it. Data shows today's high performance DCT's offer significant performance improvements over a manual transmission. If GM is setting out to build a significant improvement with the new generation Corvette they can't use a manual transmission.

I was fortunate enough to attend a local Porsche Driving Experience event last Wednesday. Porsche's head instructor from their driving school in Alabama said he drove a manual and PDK equipped Carrera S back-to-back around Barber Motorsports Park and was an average of 2 seconds per lap faster with the PDK. Porsche advertises the PDK equipped car to be 0.4 seconds faster to 60 mph.

GM's existing 8-spd auto available in the Z06 is already advertised to shift faster than Porsche's PDK. Imagine what a proper DCT might offer in this newest Corvette. Yes, there are purists among us who want a manual transmission because we feel it is more fun to drive as there is more driver involvement. I opted for a manual transmission in my Cayman for this very reason. That doesn't change the fact that when a manufacturer builds a sports car these days and they want to offer the best possible performance a manual transmission is no longer the best option. If it were the best option one would think that the McLaren P1, Porsche 918, Ferrari The Ferrari, and other hypercars would come with a manual transmission.
I am in agreement with you. Just stating not many guys or ladies I have seen buy a Corvette in stick. Only the enthusiasts buy a manual. Going DCT only at least gives the manual crowd a legitimate transmission as opposed to the regular non dual clutch 8AT. Even if the 8AT is more than capable now.

I suppose what I am saying is, being a hard core manual guy.. If I wanted to buy a Corvette and only the DCT was available then I would not not consider it. However, if a regular AT was the only choice then I would look elsewhere.
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Old 09-17-2016, 04:48 PM   #86
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I am in agreement with you. Just stating not many guys or ladies I have seen buy a Corvette in stick. Only the enthusiasts buy a manual. Going DCT only at least gives the manual crowd a legitimate transmission as opposed to the regular non dual clutch 8AT. Even if the 8AT is more than capable now.

I suppose what I am saying is, being a hard core manual guy.. If I wanted to buy a Corvette and only the DCT was available then I would not not consider it. However, if a regular AT was the only choice then I would look elsewhere.
The sad reality is also that fewer and fewer people know how to drive a manual transmission. It doesn't make fiscal sense to design, develop, test, and sell a manual transmission if so few will ever be optioned. On the other hand, the same people that buy a $60k Corvette because they want a sports car and can afford one will not be the same people buying this mid-engine version which will likely eclipse $100k.
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Old 09-18-2016, 09:58 AM   #87
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^^^^
Your post #84 is dead on so is that one too. A lot people really don't understand how the whole manual is better got started. They just regurgitate what others and rag mags say. In the old days if you jumped in say a automatic 4 cylinder 1980 Tercel it was dead, power was real bad. Then you jump in the same car with 5 manual and it feels like it 200 more horse power and it's fun to drive.

Today's automatic are a world apart from the old days, and the manual muscle cars where the same too when they had an automatic. If I'm driving a solid Dual Clutch or An automatic that hold to red line and let's you control every gear manually I feel like I'm in just as much control as if driving the manual. Now some Car companies like Honda use to make the funest Dam manuals to drive, like my 86 prelude o m g smooth as butter. But today's big sedans and coupes are better with these new automatics.

I wonder if GM will save a lot of money if they do an in house DCCD as opposed to using tremac manuals?
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Old 09-18-2016, 11:18 AM   #88
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^ probably not (assuming you meant DCT in the last part of the post) - considering the associated R&D costs and all if starting from scratch. Interesting to see what other cars from GM may also be receiving DCTs going forward.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:23 PM   #89
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The PDK-S really is very close to perfect, and matches with the character of the GT3RS better than a manual IMHO. What it does miss, and Lambo tried to get at this with their Aventador tranny, is violence. That slam in the back on upshift, the tire chirps, etc. don't occur, which takes away a good deal of excitement from the process. If driving for laptimes or with the longevity of the drivetrain in mind, the violence wouldn't/shouldn't be present while driving a manual either - and there is immense reward in getting that right, but it's also fun to slam 2nd and leave 500 bux worth of r-comps melted to the asphalt at will.
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:40 AM   #90
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I wonder if GM will save a lot of money if they do an in house DCCD as opposed to using tremac manuals?
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^ probably not (assuming you meant DCT in the last part of the post) - considering the associated R&D costs and all if starting from scratch. Interesting to see what other cars from GM may also be receiving DCTs going forward.
GM had been developing their own DCT a few years ago. I knew someone doing dyno testing on them. I also had a chance to drive one back in 2013 as part of a development program. At that time it didn't drive well nor did it shift well. Either GM is still developing and refining or they've canned it in favor of buying something which already works.
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Old 09-20-2016, 02:17 AM   #91
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Figure it is more cost-effective to have something that is available now and already works. The company that Tremec bought out also has links to some legit high performance car manufacturers using DCTs, so it should also work out well for the C8 at least until if/when GM can design and build a comparable one in-house.
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Old 09-20-2016, 01:20 PM   #92
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^^^^
Your post #84 is dead on so is that one too. A lot people really don't understand how the whole manual is better got started. They just regurgitate what others and rag mags say. In the old days if you jumped in say a automatic 4 cylinder 1980 Tercel it was dead, power was real bad. Then you jump in the same car with 5 manual and it feels like it 200 more horse power and it's fun to drive.

Today's automatic are a world apart from the old days, and the manual muscle cars where the same too when they had an automatic. If I'm driving a solid Dual Clutch or An automatic that hold to red line and let's you control every gear manually I feel like I'm in just as much control as if driving the manual. Now some Car companies like Honda use to make the funest Dam manuals to drive, like my 86 prelude o m g smooth as butter. But today's big sedans and coupes are better with these new automatics.

I wonder if GM will save a lot of money if they do an in house DCCD as opposed to using tremac manuals?
On a racetrack with turns, balancing the car on the shifts and making the shifts happen - works both ways... it's great that the upshifts are faster than a manual. Can't be happier with that. Almost all cars have been programmed to make the upshift immediately when requested. It's a wonderful thing, if all you do is drive in a straight line and want to win the stoplight drag.

The bigger issue is the downshifting with many of the GM sporty automatics (or most automatics for that matter). It takes too long with a VERY discernible lag. WHEN you need it to downshift, it doesn't. Move the lever. Wait. Then it shifts. You have to estimate, to ASK the car to downshift and it will when it's damn good and ready, or you have to ask earlier than you really need it in the hopes it's done by the time you need it to be. Hence, this is there the manual (and DCT) wins vs the automatics.

--kC
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:09 PM   #93
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I think manuals will continue to dissappear from pure performance cars, but will stick around on cars more geared towards driving pleasure, and the proverbial 'momentum' cars.

The old adage of manuals are faster is pretty much gone as you'd have to be living under a rock the not know DCTs have the performance advantage these days. Sports cars to have always been marketed with the "this one's better because it's faster" attitude, so naturally DCTs are well received. People are lazy, and if there is an easier way to get the same or better result, they'll take it. Manual transmissions seem to appeal to those of us who prefer that added visceral connection to the driving experience and gladly trade that for the added performance. Manual also has the tendency to make low HP, and smaller cars more fun. But yeah, it really is a shame that less people can drive stick. If everyone forgets how to drive stick, maybe some day I can afford a 993 😆
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:42 PM   #94
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Aren't like 40% of C7 Z06s stick? Seems like a significant amount to me. Yeah I get the dual clutch is faster but it doesn't hurt to have a choice.
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Old 09-20-2016, 10:55 PM   #95
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Aren't like 40% of C7 Z06s stick? Seems like a significant amount to me. Yeah I get the dual clutch is faster but it doesn't hurt to have a choice.
I agree, plus it makes for a more diverse used car market for future purchases. I haven't looked it up, but I heard manual gearbox super cars hold their value better because the flappy paddle trannies age and feel out of date, whereas the MTs are rather timeless. Again, I'm repeating something I heard on The Smoking Tire.
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Old 09-21-2016, 01:41 AM   #96
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I agree, plus it makes for a more diverse used car market for future purchases. I haven't looked it up, but I heard manual gearbox super cars hold their value better because the flappy paddle trannies age and feel out of date, whereas the MTs are rather timeless. Again, I'm repeating something I heard on The Smoking Tire.
I have seen 2 of my manual cars selling for 25-50K more then the same exact car in egear/f1 and 1 for nearly 100k more. 2 of them were purchased for almost 1/2 of what they are currently selling for a few years back. The manual transmissions cars are way more sought after and definitely feel timeless compared to the clunky shifting F1/Egear counterparts.
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Old 09-21-2016, 01:21 PM   #97
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I agree, plus it makes for a more diverse used car market for future purchases. I haven't looked it up, but I heard manual gearbox super cars hold their value better because the flappy paddle trannies age and feel out of date, whereas the MTs are rather timeless. Again, I'm repeating something I heard on The Smoking Tire.
Isn't that what we always run into though? The models that people want to buy used and depreciated are not what sells brand new. Hence manual transmissions go for more in the used market for most high end sports cars. Even in the 90s they made way more automatic Supras than manuals, but the manuals are worth way more used.

It's a different demographic. That's why the OEMs have to be careful about surveying current owners or looking at social media for product planning. The internet mobs scream for manuals but the guy who can actually afford the car new wants to keep his wife happy so he gets the car with 2 pedals.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:22 PM   #98
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I am in agreement with you. Just stating not many guys or ladies I have seen buy a Corvette in stick. Only the enthusiasts buy a manual. Going DCT only at least gives the manual crowd a legitimate transmission as opposed to the regular non dual clutch 8AT. Even if the 8AT is more than capable now.



I suppose what I am saying is, being a hard core manual guy.. If I wanted to buy a Corvette and only the DCT was available then I would not not consider it. However, if a regular AT was the only choice then I would look elsewhere.

I recently sold a manual trans C6. The local "Corvette only" dealers told me that they were only looking to buy/consign automatics.

"Something something, it took eight months to sell a stick Z06."

I did sell it off Craigslist to a 24 year old kid. I told him not to crash it on the way home. That manual was solid, though.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:24 PM   #99
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I'll also throw in that slower, but lighter, cars like the BRZ and Miata are a joke with an automatic.


(pardon my ignorance if the BRZ and FRS don't come with an automatic option)
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Old 09-23-2016, 08:34 AM   #100
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On a racetrack with turns, balancing the car on the shifts and making the shifts happen - works both ways... it's great that the upshifts are faster than a manual. Can't be happier with that. Almost all cars have been programmed to make the upshift immediately when requested. It's a wonderful thing, if all you do is drive in a straight line and want to win the stoplight drag.

The bigger issue is the downshifting with many of the GM sporty automatics (or most automatics for that matter). It takes too long with a VERY discernible lag. WHEN you need it to downshift, it doesn't. Move the lever. Wait. Then it shifts. You have to estimate, to ASK the car to downshift and it will when it's damn good and ready, or you have to ask earlier than you really need it in the hopes it's done by the time you need it to be. Hence, this is there the manual (and DCT) wins vs the automatics.

--kC
Aftermarket depending on what GM tranny ...The new 10 speed coming in 2017 for ZL1 will be faster and smoother than Dual clutch/ manual.. Will see
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