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Old 08-18-2021, 11:09 AM   #751
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:12 AM   #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shagfagon View Post

400z wouldn't be keeping tradition either.
The number prefix referenced the displacement.
240z: 2.4L
260z: 2.6L
280z: 2.8L
300zx: 3.0L
350z: 3.5L
370z: 3.7L
The new Z: 3.0L.

See the problem? Were they supposed to just call it the 300z again?

Not to mention its also a throwback to the fact that in Japan they called "fairlady Z"
I've been rooting for the revival of the 300ZX name since this was announced. But as disappointed as I am that they didn't go with it, I understand why. They clearly want to associate it with the original 240 as much as they can, and it being called "Z" kind of opens the door to it being the final generation of the model, which I think is fitting since it's very likely. So I get it now.
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:27 AM   #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntg44 View Post
No LSD on the base "Sport" model? With 400hp? Geez, kind of forces anyone serious into the Performance trim. Will be curious about pricing.

Also, 3 overdrive gears on the 9 speed auto with a lower final drive than the manual will be interesting to read reviews on.
That's part of the problem with the current 370z, you have to move up to a higher trim to get a lsd.

The new Z forces you to move to the performance trim to get the lsd and "sport tuned" suspension. This just means a higher price. A lsd with 400hp/350tq should be standard, especially if they expect around $40k.
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:34 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post
That's part of the problem with the current 370z, you have to move up to a higher trim to get a lsd.

The new Z forces you to move to the performance trim to get the lsd and "sport tuned" suspension. This just means a higher price. A lsd with 400hp/350tq should be standard, especially if they expect around $40k.
Yeah, I remember back when I bought my 350z, there were 5 different levels, and you only needed to go up to the "Enthusiast" trim (1st step above base) to get the LSD, which seemed reasonable. Back then it was 34k and only a few bucks more than the base model. Then if you wanted higher end, you went with Touring or Track to get forged wheels and Brembos. It seemed more reasonable than this 2 tier setup.

I understand the economics of limiting the trims to 2 options but LSD should have definitely been standard. Nobody's buying a 400hp 2 seater to drive slow. The brakes and forged wheels can be an upgrade to those who want it, but the LSD is what makes the base model a deal breaker vs the Performance trim.
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:44 AM   #755
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The base Supra starts at $43k and comes with a mech LSD but only has the 4 cylinder engine and fixed suspension. If the performance pack Z is anywhere around that price, it sounds like a bargain compared to the Supra. Because that's all we really can compare the Z to. Plus Z has a manual.
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:45 AM   #756
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Remember that this it the initial release. Nissan has a history of offering requested "packages" on year 2+
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Old 08-18-2021, 12:21 PM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntg44 View Post
No LSD on the base "Sport" model? With 400hp? Geez, kind of forces anyone serious into the Performance trim. Will be curious about pricing.

Also, 3 overdrive gears on the 9 speed auto with a lower final drive than the manual will be interesting to read reviews on.
I could see living without LSD depending on how smart the TCS can be. They don't get into its features here - they would surely rather people get set in their head that they want the higher trim than make them feel a little better about cheaping out by talking up the driver aids. The nannies will be busy in this car.
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Old 08-18-2021, 12:26 PM   #758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
The base Supra starts at $43k and comes with a mech LSD but only has the 4 cylinder engine and fixed suspension. If the performance pack Z is anywhere around that price, it sounds like a bargain compared to the Supra. Because that's all we really can compare the Z to. Plus Z has a manual.
The brakes on that 4 cylinder Supra are total **** with one piston. One of the reviewers hand them fade on track to such an extent that they almost went head on to a barrier.
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:48 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
The brakes on that 4 cylinder Supra are total **** with one piston. One of the reviewers hand them fade on track to such an extent that they almost went head on to a barrier.
That would never happen with a Supra sold in Germany. Brake pads need to be top notch to slow the car on the autobahn. Likely culprit is brake compound hand picked by Toyota clowns for money saving decisions and only for the U.S. market.
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:58 PM   #760
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Originally Posted by Scooby-Doode View Post
That would never happen with a Supra sold in Germany. Brake pads need to be top notch to slow the car on the autobahn. Likely culprit is brake compound hand picked by Toyota clowns for money saving decisions and only for the U.S. market.
Pad compound can for sure help, but looking at them in person the brakes didn't have much thermal mass. It was clearly a value engineered system.

Here are the Supra's brake specs:
Front: 1 piston Al floating caliper. 13x.94 rotors
Rear: 1 piston Al floating caliper. 13x.79 rotors

Here is a base Mustang's:
Front: 2 piston Al floating caliper. 12.6 x 1.18 rotors
Rear: 1 piston Iron floating caliper. 12.6 x 1.18 rotors

The base Supra is under braked for it's performance level to an extent that good pads and ducts isn't going to fix. A .94 inch thick rotor is pretty bad in 2021, but at least it's 13 inches in diameter so it looks cool!

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...Tech-Specs.pdf
https://www.toyota.com/content/ebroc..._ebrochure.pdf

Last edited by JP Chestnut; 08-18-2021 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:18 PM   #761
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Doesn't it use the base brakes found on the 2 series, 3 series, and Z4? Doubt BMW would have specially selected bespoke ****ty brakes to use only on the base Supra. I dunno tho.
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:27 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Doesn't it use the base brakes found on the 2 series, 3 series, and Z4? Doubt BMW would have specially selected bespoke ****ty brakes to use only on the base Supra. I dunno tho.
It's remarkably hard to find technical specs on BMWs site, and I'm not a modern BMW enthusiast, but what I assume is the base Z4 seems to have these brakes:

sDrive30i Roadster
Front 14.6 diameter
Rear 13.6 diameter

So it does seem like the base Supra has different, probably worse, brakes than the base Z4.

On edit, I'm seeing this for the 2020 base Z4:

Front Brake Rotors, diameter x thickness (inches)
13.7
Rear Brake Rotors, diameter x thickness (inches)
12.8

Still different.

Here's an article talking about the Supra's **** brakes: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...lightning-lap/
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:35 PM   #763
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All the reviews I've seen mention the brakes being poor. I just assumed the expectations were lofty because it's a Supra, and the same level of scrutiny isn't applied to other BMWs with the non-M brake packages.

But the Supra is 5x112 bolt pattern, so maybe they are unique brakes to the Supra.
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:38 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
All the reviews I've seen mention the brakes being poor. I just assumed the expectations were lofty because it's a Supra, and the same level of scrutiny isn't applied to other BMWs with the non-M brake packages.
That's possible. I think in reality the 4 cylinder Supra is a really good car with some really mediocre brakes. The same could be true of the base Z4, but that sort of car is typically driven by grandmas. Most people I knew who were excited about the cheap Supra push their cars and were looking for cheap speed.
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:42 PM   #765
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He's talking about the 2.0 Supra, not sure if that was missed
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Old 08-18-2021, 02:58 PM   #766
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https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...lightning-lap/

The issues with the Supra 2.0 brakes won't likely show up unless you are tracking the car.

Quote:
With such righteous handling, it's easy to fall under the Supra's spell, particularly when you're feeling fast and focused. After posting the 3:09.0 time, instead of cooling the car down, we tried to carry our enthusiasm into the next lap. That notion ended before Turn 1 when the Supra couldn't slow down enough to make the turn-in point despite the driver stabbing at the brake pedal and filling the cabin with expletives.
When you consider the Supra even in 2.0 guise is marketed as a sporty car this is a failure by BMW/Toyota for sure. I would hope that these brakes are improved in the future. Ironically it was the 370Z Nismo that Car & Driver crashed into a wall during a lightning lap test years back because of bad brakes.
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Old 08-18-2021, 06:27 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
It's remarkably hard to find technical specs on BMWs site, and I'm not a modern BMW enthusiast, but what I assume is the base Z4 seems to have these brakes:
url]
Dimensions

You might be surprised to learn the Z and Supra have more in common than just being two-door, two-seat, rear-wheel drive coupes.

Having a look at the exterior dimensions, they actually share the same body length at 4379mm, an uncanny similarity although the Z's longer wheelbase means it has shorter overhangs measuring up at 2550mm wheel-to-wheel compared to the Supra's 2470mm.

Width and height are also extremely close, with the Supra's hips resulting in it sitting 10mm wider than the Z at 1854mm, while the Z is slightly taller at 1316mm versus the 1299mm high Supra.

Nissan hasn't yet provided the weight of new Z but it's expected to be around the same ballpark as the 1505kg Supra, having previously been teased in Z Proto guise with a dry weight of 1475kg.

Engine/drivetrain

Despite both featuring 3.0-litre, six-cylinder engines, Nissan and Toyota have gone about achieving power and torque in different ways.

For the Z, it adopts the VR30DDTT from the Infiniti Q50 and Q60, a V6 unit with twin-turbochargers which helps it punch out 298kW at 6400rpm and 475Nm between 1600 to 5600rpm.

In the Supra you'll find the BMW Z4's B58 straight-six, single turbo engine, a powerplant more than capable of producing 285kW at 6500rpm and 500Nm from 1800 to 5000rpm.

Since the Supra's reveal, fans of the nameplate have been crying out for a manual transmission, having to make do with the ZF eight-speed torque converter box which can still help the car achieve 0-100km/h sprint times of 4.1 seconds.

Nissan has seemingly been listening to the purists' prayers, offering the Z as either a six-speed manual or a nine-speed torque converter auto borrowed from Mercedes-Benz and also used in the North American Titan and Frontier models.

Perhaps the biggest difference between the drivetrain lies in how the power is sent to the rear wheels through the differential. In the case of the Supra and the Z Sport variant, power distribution is controlled through an electronically controlled diff, while the Z Performance scores a mechanical limited-slip diff a more traditional way of balancing torque distribution.


Wheels, tyres and brakes

As the old saying goes, power is nothing without control and it seems Nissan and Toyota have adopted similar methodology to keep their cars on the tarmac.

On the Z's entry-level Sport trim, the car rides on 18x9-inch wheels all round wrapped in 245/48R18 Yokohama Advan Sport tyres. Stepping up to the Performance variant provides an upgrade to 19x9.5 and 19x10-inch wheels front and back, shod in 255/40R19 and 275/35R19 Bridgestone Potenza S007 rubber respectively.

For the Supra, the base GT is equipped with 18x9 and 18x10-inch wheels on the front and rear, as the Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres measure up at 255/40R18 and 275/40R18 respectively. For the range-topping GTS, width remains the same but diameter is increased to 19-inches, with the Pilot Super Sports now 255/35R19 on the front and 275/35R19 at the rear.

While the Supra retains the same brakes across its two variants 348mm rotors, four-piston calipers up front, 345mm rotors and single-piston calipers out back the Z provides different packages on the Sport and Performance.

The lower-spec Sport utilises 320mm rotors and two-piston calipers on the front corners, with 307mm rotors and single-piston calipers at the rear. However, the Performance beefs up the stoppers to 355mm and four-piston calipers as the front set-up, with 350mm rotors and two-piston calipers on the rear axle.
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Old 08-18-2021, 06:47 PM   #768
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I read an article that stated the Z and 370Z have the same chassis code.

I don't know if the shortcomings of the 370Z were attributed to the chassis, but if they've improved it enough then people can probably overlook it.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:21 PM   #769
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- It looks better

- It has go faster tunable engine with good trans choices

- Still relatively cheap

- Still a tuner platform
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:31 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by AVANTI R5 View Post
While the Supra retains the same brakes across its two variants 348mm rotors, four-piston calipers up front, 345mm rotors and single-piston calipers out back...
FYI, that's demonstratively false. The 2.0T Supra uses one piston calipers in front. More high quality automotive journalism.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:33 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
- It looks better

- It has go faster tunable engine with good trans choices

- Still relatively cheap

- Still a tuner platform
I agree. So long as the rear diff, trans, and engine are reliable this thing is going to be at worst a Japanese pony car.

Has anyone tracked a 370Z? One of my buddies had an early 350Z and the suspension sucked badly on track. Some of the bushings would deflect so badly that the tires would wear very very badly, regardless of alignment specs.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:34 PM   #772
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Interesting tidbit; looks like torque capacity of the JATCO/Daimler JR913E 9-speed auto in the Z is just over 700 Nm / 500 ft.lb. So, lots of extra torque capacity to crank that boost up...
In comparison, BMW/Toyota picked a middle weight ZF 8HP with "only" 500 Nm / 368 ft.lb of capacity; just enough to cover peak torque output of the stock B58.
In fact, I think BMW/Toyota is probably torque limiting the B58 to protect the tranny.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:35 PM   #773
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[double post shenanigans...]
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Old 08-18-2021, 10:47 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Interesting tidbit; looks like torque capacity of the JATCO/Daimler JR913E 9-speed auto in the Z is just over 700 Nm / 500 ft.lb. So, lots of extra torque capacity to crank that boost up...
In comparison, BMW/Toyota picked a middle weight ZF 8HP with "only" 500 Nm / 368 ft.lb of capacity; just enough to cover peak torque output of the stock B58.
In fact, I think BMW/Toyota is probably torque limiting the B58 to protect the tranny.
If the rear end is similarly overbuilt this thing is going to be popular with tuners.
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Old 08-19-2021, 06:31 AM   #775
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FYI, that's demonstratively false. The 2.0T Supra uses one piston calipers in front. More high quality automotive journalism.
Yeah that was motoring new site; only half article went up. My power DSL etc went out so I couldn't fix ..Mobile now
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