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Old 06-22-2020, 05:23 PM   #101
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Not to mention, a lot of the revered motors in Toyota's cars of yesteryear were actually designed and manufactured by Yamaha, to varying degrees. Anything with a "G" in the second part of the engine code is the designation for a Yamaha-designed motor. 2ZZGE, 3S-GTE, 2UR-GSE, and yes, the beloved 4A-GE.

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Yamaha is a magic word for anyone familiar with the inner workings of Toyota. The two companies have had a very close relationship over the years, and a lot of Toyota's best engines were either designed by, built by, or designed in partnership with Yamaha. The screaming V10 in the Lexus LFA? Yamaha. The glorious straight six in the original Toyota 2000GT? Yamaha. The legendary four-cylinder 4A-GE in the AE86? Yamaha once more. Even the 1JZ was a partnership between Toyota and Yamaha, and the great 2JZ was Toyota taking Yamaha's work up a step in size.
https://jalopnik.com/toyotas-first-t...han-1824260905

Toyota is an automaker, a car company. They are a damned good one, at that. But their focus has always been on putting together solid cars. Compare this to say, Honda, who's main focus has always seemed to be on making the best motors they could possibly make (as opposed to the best car that they could), which is evident in their products outside of just the automotive world but into lawnmowers, marine motors, offroad/ATVs, planes, etc.
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Old 06-22-2020, 05:30 PM   #102
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I do agree that the LFA's exhaust note is addictive. But that car was like $300K or something no? At that price it better sound good since it didn't perform nearly as well as other exotics from the reviews I saw.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:02 AM   #103
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all that and guess what...the supra is still a rebadged Z4. The examples of the LFA and the Yamaha engine development cooperation are pretty moot when trying to validate that the Z4 rebadged as a supra falls into those same catagories.

The LFA Yamaha engine was EXCLUSIVE to that car, and the 2JZ original supra's were popular 6 years before any fast and furious movies. It was a styling hit in the performance market, and sure it wasn't the fastest and best handeling car of the day...but it was considered the best overall sport coupe by many when it came out...and excellent build quality and reliability. Those Supra's and Celica's and LFA's were not rebadged BMW's that had already in production for years.

This new one isnt a Toyota supra. Its a Z4 with some body work and a Toyota badge stuck on it. I would bet the 2JZ is also a more bullet proof engine even as a 90's era compared to any BMW straight six...so I dont buy that a MASSIVE company like Toyota couldn't have designed a new era straight 6. They just didnt want to. This new Supra is just a marketing gimmick collaboration with BMW. If anything its better for BMW than it is for Toyota. So I still dont get it.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:17 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by YungBoba View Post
Not to mention, a lot of the revered motors in Toyota's cars of yesteryear were actually designed and manufactured by Yamaha, to varying degrees. Anything with a "G" in the second part of the engine code is the designation for a Yamaha-designed motor. 2ZZGE, 3S-GTE, 2UR-GSE, and yes, the beloved 4A-GE.



https://jalopnik.com/toyotas-first-t...han-1824260905

Toyota is an automaker, a car company. They are a damned good one, at that. But their focus has always been on putting together solid cars. Compare this to say, Honda, who's main focus has always seemed to be on making the best motors they could possibly make (as opposed to the best car that they could), which is evident in their products outside of just the automotive world but into lawnmowers, marine motors, offroad/ATVs, planes, etc.
Great post, many do not know this. Yamaha, is excellent. I own 3 of them. Once in a while they get it wrong but I have several motors from them they are brick S house reliable and they are high performance motors. I’m especially grateful to Masao Furusawa who made the best motorcycle engine I have ever ridden and currently own. The crossplane 4 cylinder, 1 liter.

If you immerse yourself into Japanese gearhead culture you quickly find out the best students their universities churn out, are quickly scooped up into the Honda and Yamaha ranks as engineers especially on the motorcycle side. I wish I saw the ingenuity I see in the 2 wheel word in the 4 wheeled world especially as it pertains to engines. Honda makes the best V4’s in the world and they should drop one into one on their automotive side, and perhaps turbocharge it. Toyota, could take Yamaha’s crossplane 4 and do the same, slap a turbo on it, or just make a 2 liter version. A lot of possibilities but the bean counters still run Toyota and Honda. Both companies are trying to get back to making performance automobiles. I for one would love to see something like a V4 AWD CTR.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:34 AM   #105
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all that and guess what...the supra is still a rebadged Z4. The examples of the LFA and the Yamaha engine development cooperation are pretty moot when trying to validate that the Z4 rebadged as a supra falls into those same catagories.

The LFA Yamaha engine was EXCLUSIVE to that car, and the 2JZ original supra's were popular 6 years before any fast and furious movies. It was a styling hit in the performance market, and sure it wasn't the fastest and best handeling car of the day...but it was considered the best overall sport coupe by many when it came out...and excellent build quality and reliability. Those Supra's and Celica's and LFA's were not rebadged BMW's that had already in production for years.

This new one isnt a Toyota supra. Its a Z4 with some body work and a Toyota badge stuck on it. I would bet the 2JZ is also a more bullet proof engine even as a 90's era compared to any BMW straight six...so I dont buy that a MASSIVE company like Toyota couldn't have designed a new era straight 6. They just didnt want to. This new Supra is just a marketing gimmick collaboration with BMW. If anything its better for BMW than it is for Toyota. So I still dont get it.
This is good for both BMW and Toyota; pooling technical and financial resources to build affordable (relatively) sports cars is the way to go.
Also, Toyota and BMW do not actually assemble these cars; it's done by a third-party, Magna Steyr, that also assemble cars for other manufacturers.
It's all about lowering costs and improving margins on these cars.
In any case, this is not a new concept:
- BRZ/FRS
- MX5 / Fiat 129
These are not marketing stunts; this is the only way to turn a profit on things that relatively few people want to buy, IMO.

And, another thing, nostalgia is nice, but a port injected 2JZ stands ZERO CHANCE with today's emissions standards.
Also, the iron block 2JZ I6 is almost as heavy as the HEMI V8 under the hood of my Charger. No thanks .
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:58 AM   #106
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all that and guess what...the supra is still a rebadged Z4.
vs. a rebadged Celica?

or

a rebadged SC300/400/Soarer?
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Old 06-23-2020, 02:31 AM   #107
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so I dont buy that a MASSIVE company like Toyota couldn't have designed a new era straight 6. They just didnt want to.
This is 100% true but at the same time I can't fault them for it. They don't want to because who's going to buy it? With how massive Toyota is, even if the Supra is a runaway success, it'll amount to like 2% of their total automotive sales worldwide. Why go through the trouble for all that? That'd be like pissing in an ocean.

Toyota is a hugely successful company. I am sure their top execs sat in a board meeting some 7+ years ago and posed the question, "would we sell more Supras if the car was 100% Toyota, as opposed to outsourcing the engine to BMW?". And I'm sure the answer was either 1.) No we wouldn't, or 2.) Yes, but it wouldn't be a significant enough difference to warrant all the R&D costs we'd have to eat.

People on the internet love to say **** like "omgerhr ____ company needs to make a 400HP RWD hatch, I guarantee it will sell like hot cakes!!", while not realizing that true sports cars are a dying breed. Nobody buys them. You have a small handful of real car nuts (aka us) who really care about sports cars and then you have 99.8% of other people who will see 100+ new Supras in their lifetime, think "oh that thing looks cool", and then go on with their day to day lives without knowing anything else about the car. So while yes, I agree that this thing would have been cooler if it was 100% Toyota (and also if it had three pedals), I also don't fault them for doing what they did. You think they don't realize that a bunch of people on the internet who want to live out their 90s wet dreams would end up complaining "it's just a BMW"? Of course they did, but they made a financial decision, and said "screw it, those guys aren't going to amount to any significant number of sales, we can save millions in R&D by going to BMW and this thing will still have decent sales".

At the end of the day, the B58 is a damn good motor, and we're lucky to even see a new Supra at all, BMW engine be damned. If nothing else, this at least puts a Japanese manufacturer back on the map in this segment, as the only other Japanese performance car at the $50K price range is...what, the RC? Which is a boat. Maybe a top trim Nismo Z, which is over a decade old. And the STi Type-RA, which is nothing more than a novelty car. The Supra is a far superior car to any of those.
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Old 06-23-2020, 07:59 AM   #108
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You all are responding to and commenting in the general direction of this guy as if maybe he isn't going to keep posting the exact same thing, verbatim, over and over and over. You don't feed the hawk. You do it and risk thread collapse into singularity (locked.)
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Old 06-23-2020, 08:04 AM   #109
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fredzy is correct.
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Old 06-23-2020, 09:54 AM   #110
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all that and guess what...the supra is still a rebadged Z4. The examples of the LFA and the Yamaha engine development cooperation are pretty moot when trying to validate that the Z4 rebadged as a supra falls into those same catagories.

The LFA Yamaha engine was EXCLUSIVE to that car, and the 2JZ original supra's were popular 6 years before any fast and furious movies. It was a styling hit in the performance market, and sure it wasn't the fastest and best handeling car of the day...but it was considered the best overall sport coupe by many when it came out...and excellent build quality and reliability. Those Supra's and Celica's and LFA's were not rebadged BMW's that had already in production for years.

This new one isnt a Toyota supra. Its a Z4 with some body work and a Toyota badge stuck on it. I would bet the 2JZ is also a more bullet proof engine even as a 90's era compared to any BMW straight six...so I dont buy that a MASSIVE company like Toyota couldn't have designed a new era straight 6. They just didnt want to. This new Supra is just a marketing gimmick collaboration with BMW. If anything its better for BMW than it is for Toyota. So I still dont get it.
A: No one is arguing it’s not a hard top Z4 (essentially). We’ve made this connection long before you wandered in here.

B: You’re comparing a 90’s era engine that couldn’t pass today’s emission standards. There is simply more that can go wrong with today’s engines due to complexity. That being said, the mkiv Supra engine was incredibly inefficient. You had to slap a huge snail and race fuel to make 600hp. The engine in the Supra / Z4 can hit that with a downpipe, meth and tune.

You wouldn’t buy the Supra even if they designed their own engine so why are your panties on such a wad?
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:16 AM   #111
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I didnt mean that they should have put a 2jz in a totally new design car LOL....my point is that Toyota cant take credit for this Z4 rebadged as a Supra, they are a MASSIVE company with astronomical revenue...its comical that people are trying to validate that they couldn't have built a new GENUINE supra over 7 years that was thrown out on here that it took them to rebadge a Z4????

Toyota's revenue in 2019 was over a quarter TRILLION dollars. General motors revenue for 2019 was almost HALF that and they designed a brand new corvette, mid engine everthing NEW....and its $64,000

B.S!!!!! ITs not a supra and Toyota doesnt get credit for rebading a Z4. Sorry.
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Old 06-23-2020, 10:41 AM   #112
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vs. a rebadged Celica?

or

a rebadged SC300/400/Soarer?
no! but not the twin turbo supra....it would be like GM rebadging the Audi R8 as the new C8 corvette....C'mon man you know EXACTLY what I am saying...stop trying to redefine it....I never said that regular non flagship performance cars aren't mixed and matched with other manufacturers. The twin turbo supra is ICONIC, taking another manufactures model and slapping the Z4 badge on it was unimaginative and doesnt make it a supra.
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Old 06-23-2020, 11:22 AM   #113
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I didnt mean that they should have put a 2jz in a totally new design car LOL....my point is that Toyota cant take credit for this Z4 rebadged as a Supra, they are a MASSIVE company with astronomical revenue...its comical that people are trying to validate that they couldn't have built a new GENUINE supra over 7 years that was thrown out on here that it took them to rebadge a Z4????

Toyota's revenue in 2019 was over a quarter TRILLION dollars. General motors revenue for 2019 was almost HALF that and they designed a brand new corvette, mid engine everthing NEW....and its $64,000

B.S!!!!! ITs not a supra and Toyota doesnt get credit for rebading a Z4. Sorry.
Again, GM has manufactured the SBC for over 50 years in 100's of different applications, and has raced mid-engined V8's for decades. They didn't have to spend **** for R&D, they just ran up to the end of the road for the FR platform in the Corvette and moved it. Toyota hasn't made a car like the Supra(FR, I6TT) in almost 20 years, and they haven't even raced a I6 in ~30 years. So why you keep telling us what GM does when GM is dependent on Trucks and muscle cars for sales, and Toyota is dependant on family and eco cars, is baffling. GM is much more prepared for a project like this. So are Ford. And both of those companies have made I6s more recently than Toyota as well.
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Old 06-23-2020, 11:41 AM   #114
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The Supra is just a name. It didn't win many trophies in racing outside of Japan, hell the RX-8 has a better resume in the States. Its only an icon because it's a hero car in F&F. It's not a technical powerhouse like the R34 and it's not as good of a drivers car as the RX7. It overshadows both of those because you can put 50K into one and beat Lambos, which was impressive when they we 15-30K to buy one. Now that they're approaching and breaching 6 figures, the luster is waning.

So I guess if you're in the TX2K BRAH or internet racer crowd then there is little appeal for this package but for actual enthusiasts, it's exciting to see a relatively affordable I6TT that handles and looks sharp and that may (hopefully) someday depreciate to the level where a pleb like me can afford one.
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Old 06-23-2020, 11:57 AM   #115
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The best Toyota performance car they could make recently was the LC500, right? Thing costs well over $90K and performance is only negligible. Sure it might be precisely assembled and clean inside and out, but I don't think car guys buy those things.. more like a life-style car.. business executive who likes to spend time golfing Saturdays with other executives and dinner at a sushi restaurant afterwards for more business talk.

No thanks. Saturdays are spent driving my cars and detailing/wrenching, then a nice long nap afterwards and burger and fries or pizza. And I'm a white collar business guy during the weekdays.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:24 PM   #116
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There's no straight comparison or continuation of the Supra. The TT Supra weighed 3600 lbs with the automatic. The current Supra is 3400 lbs. That RC-F weighs 3900 lbs. Had Toyota developed a straight 6 for the Lexus it would have weighed what the old Supra weighed, so in a sense the RC-F is the spiritual successor to the Supra. But V8 power of the Germans forced Toyota to throw their eggs into that basket.

It's quite genius they managed to get a deal with BMW. I applaud them for that. A manual option would have been ideal for this car, so there's hope for the future they offer a limited run of manuals. I was critical of Toyota for selling out the Supra name just to get a product to market. But now's not the time to argue about it. Hence why I started a 2021 Supra thread.

WE'VE MOVED ON. Thanks.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:30 PM   #117
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The best Toyota performance car they could make recently was the LC500, right? Thing costs well over $90K and performance is only negligible. Sure it might be precisely assembled and clean inside and out, but I don't think car guys buy those things.. more like a life-style car.. business executive who likes to spend time golfing Saturdays with other executives and dinner at a sushi restaurant afterwards for more business talk.

No thanks. Saturdays are spent driving my cars and detailing/wrenching, then a nice long nap afterwards and burger and fries or pizza. And I'm a white collar business guy during the weekdays.
They had the RC/RC-F which I was excited for when I first saw it, but it hasn't been well-received by the enthusiast community. The thing is HEAVY at close to 3900lbs in top trims with options and people say they transmission feels slushy and not as smooth as a modern DCT or ZF 8-speed. It does look bitchin' though and the 2UR-GSE motor in it (designed by Yamaha ) puts out decent power and sounds amazing. It's essentially the same motor they've been using in all the other F-cars (IS-F, GS-F, and even the LC500).

The RC-F Track Edition is super hawt but stickers at almost $100K which makes it not a very good value proposition at that price point.


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Old 06-23-2020, 12:32 PM   #118
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There's no straight comparison or continuation of the Supra. The TT Supra weighed 3600 lbs with the automatic. The current Supra is 3400 lbs. That RC-F weighs 3900 lbs. Had Toyota developed a straight 6 for the Lexus it would have weighed what the old Supra weighed, so in a sense the RC-F is the spiritual successor to the Supra. But V8 power of the Germans forced Toyota to throw their eggs into that basket.

It's quite genius they managed to get a deal with BMW. I applaud them for that. A manual option would have been ideal for this car, so there's hope for the future they offer a limited run of manuals. I was critical of Toyota for selling out the Supra name just to get a product to market. But now's not the time to argue about it. Hence why I started a 2021 Supra thread.

WE'VE MOVED ON. Thanks.
I was typing my post before you had posted yours...and then refresh the page to see we posted the same car get out of my brain.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:50 PM   #119
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can you hear me now

good
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:51 PM   #120
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YungBoba - Oh yeah, the RC-F. I too think the track version looks good, but the RC-F never crossed my mind as a candidate sports car (sports coupe) to buy. At those prices it's natural to look at the M2 Competition/Cayman.. which were my original 2 candidates before I decided to go with the Supra this time.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:53 PM   #121
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I'm also kind of wondering what Lexus did with their new IS350 refresh. Not a sedan guy at all, but they seem to want a larger share in the compact luxury sport segment. I'd much rather have an IS350 over a TLX A-Spec.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:57 PM   #122
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Start a thread on it. Being the Supra shares nothing with a Toyota or Lexus product, it's best to discuss elsewhere.
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Old 06-23-2020, 01:07 PM   #123
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Meh, the new IS is underwhelming. Powertrain is mostly the same as the outgoing model which is nothing to write home about. The infotainment seems to be improved, but has the "tacked on tablet" style that most Toyotas have nowadays. The interior itself seems to be mostly the same too.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...tos-specs-info

Keep your eyes on the new TLX Type-S coming out. No official numbers have been posted, but it's a 3.0 liter turbo V6 and is expected to be in the mid to high 300HP range, and comes standard with SH-AWD. If I'm in the market for an entry level luxury sedan, this is going to be near the top of my list. Acura has done fantastic things with the Type S badge in the past and this looks to be a continuation of that. Compared to, say, the F-Sport badge for Lexus, which is purely cosmetic bits, and forces you to step up to an actual F-car if you want any real performance, which then prices most people out.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/33711/...t-come-to-life

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Start a thread on it. Being the Supra shares nothing with a Toyota or Lexus product, it's best to discuss elsewhere.
There's a BMW owners thread in OT
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Old 06-23-2020, 02:23 PM   #124
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Meh, the new IS is underwhelming. Powertrain is mostly the same as the outgoing model which is nothing to write home about. The infotainment seems to be improved, but has the "tacked on tablet" style that most Toyotas have nowadays. The interior itself seems to be mostly the same too.
Is that right.. so just mostly body panel updates. It does look better than the previous years though, so that's good.

Yeah, no more Honda's for me until they make a modern version S2K. I lost interest in their products all together otherwise.. well I do like their portable generators even though that is also safety-recalled..
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Old 06-23-2020, 02:59 PM   #125
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The Supra is just a name. It didn't win many trophies in racing outside of Japan, hell the RX-8 has a better resume in the States. Its only an icon because it's a hero car in F&F. It's not a technical powerhouse like the R34 and it's not as good of a drivers car as the RX7. It overshadows both of those because you can put 50K into one and beat Lambos, which was impressive when they we 15-30K to buy one. Now that they're approaching and breaching 6 figures, the luster is waning.

So I guess if you're in the TX2K BRAH or internet racer crowd then there is little appeal for this package but for actual enthusiasts, it's exciting to see a relatively affordable I6TT that handles and looks sharp and that may (hopefully) someday depreciate to the level where a pleb like me can afford one.
As a person that legitimately (not internet pretend) grew up in that era it was the FD RX-7 that was the all-star of the 90's Japanese supercars as it was the purest sports car. The Supra was a big coupe with bigger power but despite being a fair bit more expensive than its competition, not really a big leap over the 300ZX which at that time was pretty polished and the more popular car. It was a good car and all but there's little doubt it owes a big part of its legendary status to F&F as nobody really cared about them until that movie came out as the Supra going back to the 80's was always that big Japanese GT car that cost way more than competitor offerings leading it to be a bit of an afterthought amongst enthusiasts.
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