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Old 01-19-2022, 12:44 PM   #4901
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Tell everyone you're a boomer without saying you're a boomer.

< not a boomer. believe it or not.
No boomer here. Gen X FTW!
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Old 01-19-2022, 12:47 PM   #4902
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The Golf R is roughly 10k USD more than WRX. I don't know if it is a competitor anymore given the price difference. Car segment does not mean a whole lot when they are priced for different market of consumers. Both the Camry and Panamera are E-segment/ cars, but it will be unfair to compare them.
Right, the Golf R was historically priced like an STI...
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:09 PM   #4903
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I don't like that we compare AWD cars to that of 2WDs. Completely different design purposes. Summertime pavement, flat-lander, miles of freeway driving with a emphasis on track sporting, versus --------- Snowy/icy road capability, off-road capability with a emphasis on maintaining its Rally roots / image.

They're just different categories of cars to me. The other cars Literally can't do what the WRX was designed to do. Maintain traction on multiple surfaces and weather.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:13 PM   #4904
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Originally Posted by ultrashin View Post
The Golf R is roughly 10k USD more than WRX. I don't know if it is a competitor anymore given the price difference. Car segment does not mean a whole lot when they are priced for different market of consumers. Both the Camry and Panamera are E-segment/ cars, but it will be unfair to compare them.
Yes and No - if you've only got a WRX budget, you should be comparing cars within that price range, but that doesn't mean the other vehicles aren't in the same class.
If you've got a Golf R budget, you shouldn't ignore the WRX if it has enough of what you need for 10k less; not everyone wants to row their own in an STi, or maybe they want an engine that wasn't around when dinosaurs roamed the earth, does that mean they should buy a Golf R by default if they want AWD & some performance?

People with Camry money probably aren't looking at Panameras, but people with Panameras might look at Camrys; that's at least 80-90k of money you don't have to spend on a depreciating asset.

To be clear though, the Camry and Panamera aren't in the same size class.
Camry is a mid size (D), Panamera is a full size (E); you're thinking of the Avalon, which is Toyotas full size offering. They aren't in the same secondary classification either (Luxury), but I'm pretty sure you knew that when you presented your false analogy.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:20 PM   #4905
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Originally Posted by Russ_G93 View Post
I don't like that we compare AWD cars to that of 2WDs. Completely different design purposes. Summertime pavement, flat-lander, miles of freeway driving with a emphasis on track sporting, versus --------- Snowy/icy road capability, off-road capability with a emphasis on maintaining its Rally roots / image.

They're just different categories of cars to me. The other cars Literally can't do what the WRX was designed to do. Maintain traction on multiple surfaces and weather.
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
If you class definition for the WRX is "AWD turbo sedan at a certain pricepoint" then it's in it's own class.......Let's state it another way - Your personal preference does not dictate a new vehicle class designation in the industry.
There you go, quoted myself for you; trimmed it a bit as well. Feel free to buy a WRX at the WRX store the next time you want another WRX, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a C-segment "sport compact" and will be compared to other C-segment "sport compacts" by the industry at large & by everyone who doesn't have their head buried in the sand, or snow, or Tom Dolls 'Love'.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:41 PM   #4906
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Yes and No - if you've only got a WRX budget, you should be comparing cars within that price range, but that doesn't mean the other vehicles aren't in the same class.
If you've got a Golf R budget, you shouldn't ignore the WRX if it has enough of what you need for 10k less; not everyone wants to row their own in an STi, or maybe they want an engine that wasn't around when dinosaurs roamed the earth, does that mean they should buy a Golf R by default if they want AWD & some performance?

People with Camry money probably aren't looking at Panameras, but people with Panameras might look at Camrys; that's at least 80-90k of money you don't have to spend on a depreciating asset.

To be clear though, the Camry and Panamera aren't in the same size class.
Camry is a mid size (D), Panamera is a full size (E); you're thinking of the Avalon, which is Toyotas full size offering. They aren't in the same secondary classification either (Luxury), but I'm pretty sure you knew that when you presented your false analogy.
I am not familiar with each car's classification, but instead of Camry we can use Avalon as example. I still don't think Avalon should be compared with Panamera. They are designed for different market of buyers. That's why companies makes car with various trim offering to differentiate them. You can save a lot of money by buying a corolla hatchback vs Golf R that are the same segment, but when do you see people calling them competitors?

Do you mind informing me why my analogy is false? I think your argument on competitor is rather unreasonable: Most people are considering segment competitors based on price(MSRP) first, then they look at what each car has to offer. "People with Camry money probably aren't looking at Panameras".
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Old 01-19-2022, 02:16 PM   #4907
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I am not familiar with each car's classification, but instead of Camry we can use Avalon as example. I still don't think Avalon should be compared with Panamera. They are designed for different market of buyers. That's why companies makes car with various trim offering to differentiate them. You can save a lot of money by buying a corolla hatchback vs Golf R that are the same segment, but when do you see people calling them competitors?

Do you mind informing me why my analogy is false? I think your argument on competitor is rather unreasonable: Most people are considering segment competitors based on price(MSRP) first, then they look at what each car has to offer. "People with Camry money probably aren't looking at Panameras".
Your analogy is false because you chose vehicles in different primary (size) and secondary (use-case) classifications, specifically aiming for a price swing that isn't comparable to that of the original vehicles in discussion (c-class sport compacts) as a means to backup your argument.

A Panamera is a full-size "luxury car", a Camry is a mid-size "family" or "economy" car. The Avalon is a false analogy to the Panamera as well, as although it is a full size car, it is not a luxury car; hence the secondary classification (use-case) does not align. I know I joked along with you there, but you Camry/Panamera argument wasn't anywhere near an "apples to apples" comparison.

An LS500 would have been a more apt comparison to the Panamera, if you want to stick to the Lexus/Toyota brand that is; a BMW 7-series, or a Mercedes S-class would also be more analogous comparisons to the Panamera, with a similar acceptable price swing to the original vehicles in discussion (~80k vs. ~100k starting MSRP, or a ~20% prince swing).
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:25 PM   #4908
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The Golf R is roughly 10k USD more than WRX.
if you option a WRX like the Golf R, then you're less than 10k different.

while the Golf R is the pinnacle Golf, and the WRX is not the pinnacle WRX, if you can option the two cars to get similar specs out of both, then why not cross shop?

if you have the budget for 45k, but can get everything you need out of a 35k car, then why spend the extra?

the thing I don't get is to get up in arms if that lower priced option doesn't meet the needs where the Golf R does. if you have the budget for the Golf R, and it ticks your boxes, where the WRX doesn't, Golf it up, and don't be pissed at Subaru for not making the car you wish would compete with the Golf R, but at 10k less.

either that, or wait and see what the STI does, which if the Golf R is in your budget, it will also be in your budget, and maybe tick the boxes you want ticked.
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:27 PM   #4909
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There you go, quoted myself for you; trimmed it a bit as well. Feel free to buy a WRX at the WRX store the next time you want another WRX, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a C-segment "sport compact" and will be compared to other C-segment "sport compacts" by the industry at large & by everyone who doesn't have their head buried in the sand, or snow, or Tom Dolls 'Love'.
I understand what you are saying, however, the fact remains: They're both "Designed" for a specific buyer.
If you live in the elements where traction matters most, more than likely, you'll go Subaru; City, -->VW or Civic, etc.
Designed-Purpose is completely different from Third-Party Tabloid Reviewer Categorist.

You have strange sarcasm lol
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:30 PM   #4910
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Your analogy is false because you chose vehicles in different primary (size) and secondary (use-case) classifications, specifically aiming for a price swing that isn't comparable to that of the original vehicles in discussion (c-class sport compacts) as a means to backup your argument.

A Panamera is a full-size "luxury car", a Camry is a mid-size "family" or "economy" car. The Avalon is a false analogy to the Panamera as well, as although it is a full size car, it is not a luxury car; hence the secondary classification (use-case) does not align. I know I joked along with you there, but you Camry/Panamera argument wasn't anywhere near an "apples to apples" comparison.

An LS500 would have been a more apt comparison to the Panamera, if you want to stick to the Lexus/Toyota brand that is; a BMW 7-series, or a Mercedes S-class would also be more analogous comparisons to the Panamera, with a similar acceptable price swing to the original vehicles in discussion (~80k vs. ~100k starting MSRP, or a ~20% prince swing).
Interesting view. I forgot that "luxury car" is also its own segment.

I thought that family and economy cars are in the same car segment as luxury cars, and so "regardless body style, drivetrain layout, or fanbois", they are competitors.

Also is a base Mustang EcoBoost is a competitor to a Mustang GT500? Just curious
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:58 PM   #4911
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Also is a base Mustang EcoBoost is a competitor to a Mustang GT500? Just curious
I have no idea, but I won't get any Mustang if the Ecoboost Mustang doesn't line up completely with the Golf R.
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Old 01-19-2022, 04:22 PM   #4912
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I have no idea, but I won't get any Mustang if the Ecoboost Mustang doesn't line up completely with the Golf R.
Are you sure? Because it is a lot of "money you don't have to spend on a depreciating asset"
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:39 PM   #4913
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I understand what you are saying, however, the fact remains: They're both "Designed" for a specific buyer.
If you live in the elements where traction matters most, more than likely, you'll go Subaru; City, -->VW or Civic, etc.
Designed-Purpose is completely different from Third-Party Tabloid Reviewer Categorist.

You have strange sarcasm lol
I've lived in New England my entire life aside from a 3 year stint in New York; I've owned one AWD car (2006 WRX wagon), grew up driving modified Mustangs year round, that includes a 300RWHP fox body in northern Vermont year round, and currently own a RWD "performance luxury car" that I drive year round; I have no trouble driving in anything CT weather has to offer; the only issue I've ever had is ground clearance, and that is not drivetrain specific. Most of the stuff I see drive off the road are CUVs/SUVs driven by people that "needed AWD" and just run the ****e factory all seasons year round - get over yourself, ignore the marketing, invest in some good tires and whatever you drive will be fine if you aren't a moron. I'm sure at least a few of the ~500k FWD Camarys sold annually are in snow-belt states, and I bet they manage to get to work every day.

When I lived in the city (Brooklyn, working in Manhattan), I rode public transit; you'd be a moron to drive anything regularly in the city.

Oh and I ran snow tires on my WRX too; I ran HP summers 3/4s of the year, snows in the winter.

VSC, TC, & ABS do way more for the modern car buyer than the WRX AWD system ever will (open front, open rear, viscous center); all that AWD system does is make people cocky. Buy the right tires, learn how to drive.

Most if not all manufacturers offer AWD options in at least something, you're buying into the Subaru marketing if you think the "symmetrical AWD" system is better in inclement weather than an AWD Rav4 is - the software in the Rav4 is much better than Subaru's offerings, weight balance is also better, as Subarus are notoriously nose heavy. The hardware is on-par with everything outside of the STi which has actual diffs.

The WRX, STi, CTR, Hyundai "N" cars, GTI, Golf-R, etc. are all designed for the same buyer btw, the sport compact buyer; same deal when the Neon SRT-4, DSM cars, Evo, MS3 etc. were around, they were targeting sport compact buyers.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:43 PM   #4914
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Are there any Japanese reviews of the CVT?
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:45 PM   #4915
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Interesting view. I forgot that "luxury car" is also its own segment.

I thought that family and economy cars are in the same car segment as luxury cars, and so "regardless body style, drivetrain layout, or fanbois", they are competitors.

Also is a base Mustang EcoBoost is a competitor to a Mustang GT500? Just curious
Read it again, maybe twice, or three times, hall as many as it takes for it takes for your particular ability to comprehend information - primary classification = size, secondary classification = use case.

I need a truck; ultrashin told me to compare a fwd santa cruz to a Hennesy velociraptor 6x6...
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:49 PM   #4916
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
I've lived in New England my entire life aside from a 3 year stint in New York; I've owned one AWD car (2006 WRX wagon), grew up driving modified Mustangs year round, that includes a 300RWHP fox body in northern Vermont year round, and currently own a RWD "performance luxury car" that I drive year round; I have no trouble driving in anything CT weather has to offer; the only issue I've ever had is ground clearance, and that is not drivetrain specific. Most of the stuff I see drive off the road are CUVs/SUVs driven by people that "needed AWD" and just run the ****e factory all seasons year round - get over yourself, ignore the marketing, invest in some good tires and whatever you drive will be fine if you aren't a moron. I'm sure at least a few of the ~500k FWD Camarys sold annually are in snow-belt states, and I bet they manage to get to work every day.

When I lived in the city (Brooklyn, working in Manhattan), I rode public transit; you'd be a moron to drive anything regularly in the city.

Oh and I ran snow tires on my WRX too; I ran HP summers 3/4s of the year, snows in the winter.

VSC, TC, & ABS do way more for the modern car buyer than the WRX AWD system ever will (open front, open rear, viscous center); all that AWD system does is make people cocky. Buy the right tires, learn how to drive.

Most if not all manufacturers offer AWD options in at least something, you're buying into the Subaru marketing if you think the "symmetrical AWD" system is better in inclement weather than an AWD Rav4 is - the software in the Rav4 is much better than Subaru's offerings, weight balance is also better, as Subarus are notoriously nose heavy. The hardware is on-par with everything outside of the STi which has actual diffs.

The WRX, STi, CTR, Hyundai "N" cars, GTI, Golf-R, etc. are all designed for the same buyer btw, the sport compact buyer; same deal when the Neon SRT-4, DSM cars, Evo, MS3 etc. were around, they were targeting sport compact buyers.
You talking about the same RAV4 that has problems in the moose test? Also, even though all of these care are sport compact cars. There are usually differences in demographics and psychographics when jumping between the the WRX/GTI/Si tier and STI/R/Type R tier.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:19 PM   #4917
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Does anyone think that the plastic fender cladding on the WRX is part of a plan to make changing the wheel well dimensions easer to accommodate wider more aggressive wheels on the upcoming STI easier?
Or that the extended rear bumper will be replaced with a large diffuser on the next STI?
I guess I'm desperately hoping for a legitimate excuse.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:23 PM   #4918
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Precisely, if you have been paying attention the people that are the biggest critics of this car weren't going to buy it in the first place. I also agree, this is hands down the best WRX to date. They literally improved on all of the complaints from the VA gen. The interior is a big improvement so is the less punishing chassis/suspension without losing the grip/handling. It will make for a great daily while still being the most capable car in this class due to the AWD, if you want some weekend fun. The two downsides for me are the fuel economy, hopefully you can get low 30's on the highway if you take it easy and the lack of DCC on manual trims.
Hey bud. You say that the wrx has better handling on a less punishing chassis/suspension. But this review by jalopnik says the ride is still trash? I don't think you own a VA wrx so as a current owner of a VA I'm probably more qualified than you to comment on at least the ride of my wrx. And I can confirm it's complete trash. Reading this, and watching some reviews of the 2022 wrx saying the car rides essentially the same as before, it tells me the vaunted new SGP doesn't yield any benefit? Is there any benefit of SGP compared to a non SGP wrx with respect to ride and road noise?

The link is below which may not work as I'm doing this on my phone but I wanted to ask you about this. If the so called daily driver wrx still rides horribly then I'm a little worried about the sti as that's the hardcore rally racer ain't it? And given these cars are not aimed at teenagers anymore, I'd say ride is pretty important.......

https://jalopnik.com/the-2022-subaru-wrx-is-too-grown-up-for-its-own-good-1848244813
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:31 PM   #4919
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I have lost count of how many buyers come in.....ask to see/drive an STI and then when asked if they are going to buy, their response be something like "Well, I'm also looking at a F-150/Silverado/Ram......". I think there are specific comparisons; but, ultimately have to grudgingly agree ANYTHING can be compared to ANYTHING.









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Originally Posted by WRX4US View Post
Does anyone think that the plastic fender cladding on the WRX is part of a plan to make changing the wheel well dimensions easer to accommodate wider more aggressive wheels on the upcoming STI easier?
Or that the extended rear bumper will be replaced with a large diffuser on the next STI?
I guess I'm desperately hoping for a legitimate excuse.



This "extended" bumper. I again failed to do due diligence when I saw these in person still being happy I was even there; but, it doesn't look, to me, that it sticks out any further than the current bumper......in that spot. Has anyone else that has seen it, actually measured it? I just think it's an optical illusion it sticking out further due to what they did to the rest of the bumper.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:34 PM   #4920
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Look at these idiots painting their plastic bits.

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/01/to...om-mz-speed%2F
Hahahahaha. Idiots losing out on all that performance and mileage gains.

Wait...... As the sti is the faster trim of the wrx, does that mean it'll have more cladding with golf ball texture? What if the whole car is golf ball textured? They'll have an epic video of the aerodynamic gains of an entire car that's golf ball textured?

Oh noooooo I saw camo pics of the new m2 and it didn't have any golf ball textured wheel arch cladding or an entire front and back plastic bumper! Instead I saw massive bulging fenders on all corners because bmw foolishly chose to use bulging sheetmetal to make their car more aggressive instead of black cladding! Oops I meant black 'textured' cladding. My bad.

Subaru is genius. Bmw is stupid.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:37 PM   #4921
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Hey bud. You say that the wrx has better handling on a less punishing chassis/suspension. But this review by jalopnik says the ride is still trash? I don't think you own a VA wrx so as a current owner of a VA I'm probably more qualified than you to comment on at least the ride of my wrx. And I can confirm it's complete trash. Reading this, and watching some reviews of the 2022 wrx saying the car rides essentially the same as before, it tells me the vaunted new SGP doesn't yield any benefit? Is there any benefit of SGP compared to a non SGP wrx with respect to ride and road noise?

The link is below which may not work as I'm doing this on my phone but I wanted to ask you about this. If the so called daily driver wrx still rides horribly then I'm a little worried about the sti as that's the hardcore rally racer ain't it? And given these cars are not aimed at teenagers anymore, I'd say ride is pretty important.......

https://jalopnik.com/the-2022-subaru...ood-1848244813



My comment to this question would be to wait for direct comparisons between them. Lets see if the little bit of power and the SGP can make it faster around a track. From what I've seen, it does; but, waiting on some pros to do it for confirmation.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:53 PM   #4922
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Hahahahaha. Idiots losing out on all that performance and mileage gains.

Wait...... As the sti is the faster trim of the wrx, does that mean it'll have more cladding with golf ball texture? What if the whole car is golf ball textured? They'll have an epic video of the aerodynamic gains of an entire car that's golf ball textured?

Oh noooooo I saw camo pics of the new m2 and it didn't have any golf ball textured wheel arch cladding or an entire front and back plastic bumper! Instead I saw massive bulging fenders on all corners because bmw foolishly chose to use bulging sheetmetal to make their car more aggressive instead of black cladding! Oops I meant black 'textured' cladding. My bad.

Subaru is genius. Bmw is stupid.

I also don't get this kind of comparison. Different cars. Different shapes. Different wind tunnel results. Why does the F-14 have little winglets when wings swept and the F-111 doesn't? I believe Chano's post is more trolling than serious; but, a truck has different aero than a car. Different cars have different aero as well. I guess people made fun of the XT back in the day as well.....when it had the lowest CoD at the time........aerodynamics....
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:19 PM   #4923
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Originally Posted by NZrex View Post
Hey bud. You say that the wrx has better handling on a less punishing chassis/suspension. But this review by jalopnik says the ride is still trash? I don't think you own a VA wrx so as a current owner of a VA I'm probably more qualified than you to comment on at least the ride of my wrx. And I can confirm it's complete trash. Reading this, and watching some reviews of the 2022 wrx saying the car rides essentially the same as before, it tells me the vaunted new SGP doesn't yield any benefit? Is there any benefit of SGP compared to a non SGP wrx with respect to ride and road noise?



The link is below which may not work as I'm doing this on my phone but I wanted to ask you about this. If the so called daily driver wrx still rides horribly then I'm a little worried about the sti as that's the hardcore rally racer ain't it? And given these cars are not aimed at teenagers anymore, I'd say ride is pretty important.......



https://jalopnik.com/the-2022-subaru...ood-1848244813


Is your suspension completely stock ?
Would you mind elaborating on what makes the suspension on your car trash ?
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Old 01-19-2022, 11:28 PM   #4924
NZrex
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
My comment to this question would be to wait for direct comparisons between them. Lets see if the little bit of power and the SGP can make it faster around a track. From what I've seen, it does; but, waiting on some pros to do it for confirmation.
Oh I was more talking about ride on the street. In an ideal world I'd have a 2nd car which is performance only (rwd 2 door) but for now my car has to double as both a daily and a performance car. I was hoping SGP would provide a big improvement in ride quality but no one is really saying that. Hopefully the STI gets adaptive dampers and the comfort setting is good for daily driving.

I've driven the current type R and that comfort setting is great when you don't want to get on it. Next gen STI and Type R is probably due the same time....

In the other post I was more saying no other performance cars have the cladding. Using more aggressive sheetmetal compared to plastic cladding would've been my preference. And given the reaction to the wrx reveal, I'm sure many others think the same thing.

Would a massively improved and modern STI make me choose it over a type R despite the cladding? Dunno. Don't think so but the type R isn't a super model either.
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Old 01-19-2022, 11:31 PM   #4925
NZrex
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Originally Posted by D-Rodman View Post
Is your suspension completely stock ?
Would you mind elaborating on what makes the suspension on your car trash ?
Yeah stock. Your roads are probably smoother than ours. In NZ the non-main roads have bumps and lines. I feel everything. Ride is so hard. Didn't bother me in the early days but now it does. Hoping adaptive dampers on the STI and type R solve the issue.
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