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Old 04-21-2017, 02:09 PM   #1
Team Scream
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Default +2mm rod and Stroker Piston not a thing anymore?

There was a lot of activity on this forum a couple years back with +2mm rods and stroker (83mm) pistons, which seems to have died out.

Any builders out there that are still doing this?

The obvious benefits are documented, TDC dwell, improved rod angle, piston speeds etc. So what happened? Why have most builders gone back to standard stroke, standard rod length etc?

Any input eagerly anticipated.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:12 PM   #2
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+2 rod is 90% of the motors we build.

We've been extremely happy with them.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:39 PM   #3
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probably cause the shops that were doing it arent really around anymore
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:45 PM   #4
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Quote:
+2 rod is 90% of the motors we build.

We've been extremely happy with them.
@ TiC

So is the standard or at least accepted way of doing it to go with +2mm rods like the Turbo Tuff I beams and 83mm pistons for a DiY build?

I have the ability now to build my next engine with this concept in mind. Do you see any challenges with doing so?

Thanks for your input sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru_gc8 View Post
probably cause the shops that were doing it arent really around anymore
Actually did a little searching on IAG's website and see that their Tuff Stage 4 block uses +2mm rods with "custom" IAG pistons so there is at least one shop doing it.
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Old 04-22-2017, 12:16 PM   #5
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This is still a thing for sure. The issue is options/availability.

TIC gets the Manley H-Tuff made in a +2mm rod. Doms design and he can get them aswell. Manley only sell the +2mm HTuff to a few select vendors. Im pretty sure Woolman Performance also uses them.

The TurboTuff is also available in the +2mm PN 14436-3 with arp2000 bolts.

IMO I think the +2mm rod with the stroker piston on a 79mm stroker 2.5 is a great option. The manley stroker piston are about 10-15+ grams lighter then the standard stroke pistons. Manley standard platinum 99.75mm PN 612002c-4 slug weighs around 394-398 grams. Manley Stroker platnium 99.75mm PN 622002c-4 slug weighs around 383ish grams. Manley standard TurboTuff 99.75mm PN 632202c-4 weighs in at 408grams. Manley Stroker Turbotuff 99.75mm PN 632402c-4 weighs around 393grams.

I need to get some small and big end weights of different +2mm rods. I think the reciprocating weigh "Small rod end, piston, pin, rings" should be close to the same weight over all.

Ian,
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:51 PM   #6
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I was talking to Carillo a while ago about extended length rods and the numbers they came back with for weights equaled to about 3-4g per 1mm of added length for their Pro-H and HD Pro-H (not advertised or in their catalog but the part number is SB-B2LHD-0HS-5137B6S if you're wondering) rods.

Personally I wouldn't do a standard length rod build due to the EJ's rod/stroke/bore ratio anyway, but I like high RPM to make power over low RPM grunt.
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Old 04-23-2017, 04:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
+2 rod is 90% of the motors we build.

We've been extremely happy with them.
+2, 2.34 or +2, 2.5?
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:04 AM   #8
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I think TiC mostly build them to a 2.5. Most of the time at least...
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:12 PM   #9
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TIC can do a +2 or 4mm rod destroker in a bunch of bore sizes

and the 2.5 +2 is pretty sweet also, I think they called it the "honey badger"

personally i'll have a sleeved 101mm or closed deck 99.75 bore , 75mm crank , +2mm rod destroker for the bang per buck quotient , and I like they way the destrokers feel

my 99.5 +2mm budget destroker was very linear but I needed more turbo
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Old 04-23-2017, 05:59 PM   #10
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I also run the +2's in my destroker. I like the feel of it.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:00 PM   #11
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I really wanted to do a +2 2.34, but I live at 7000 ft and I've heard they are a bit more lazy than the 2.5 down low and that really adds up at altitude. I need to meet someone here in Colorado that has one so I can see how it feels.
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
@ TiC

So is the standard or at least accepted way of doing it to go with +2mm rods like the Turbo Tuff I beams and 83mm pistons for a DiY build?

I have the ability now to build my next engine with this concept in mind. Do you see any challenges with doing so?

Thanks for your input sir.



Actually did a little searching on IAG's website and see that their Tuff Stage 4 block uses +2mm rods with "custom" IAG pistons so there is at least one shop doing it.
Yep - +2mm rod and a stroker piston. you don't have to do anything weird like space the cases for the wrist pin insertion like on the 2.34.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
This is still a thing for sure. The issue is options/availability.

TIC gets the Manley H-Tuff made in a +2mm rod. Doms design and he can get them aswell. Manley only sell the +2mm HTuff to a few select vendors. Im pretty sure Woolman Performance also uses them.

The TurboTuff is also available in the +2mm PN 14436-3 with arp2000 bolts.

IMO I think the +2mm rod with the stroker piston on a 79mm stroker 2.5 is a great option. The manley stroker piston are about 10-15+ grams lighter then the standard stroke pistons. Manley standard platinum 99.75mm PN 612002c-4 slug weighs around 394-398 grams. Manley Stroker platnium 99.75mm PN 622002c-4 slug weighs around 383ish grams. Manley standard TurboTuff 99.75mm PN 632202c-4 weighs in at 408grams. Manley Stroker Turbotuff 99.75mm PN 632402c-4 weighs around 393grams.

I need to get some small and big end weights of different +2mm rods. I think the reciprocating weigh "Small rod end, piston, pin, rings" should be close to the same weight over all.

Ian,
Manley makes those rods for Dom, and Dom only. If you want a set you have to go through him or through the few places that get them from him. Dom, us or Woolman would be the go to places that I am aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu View Post
+2, 2.34 or +2, 2.5?
2.5, but I have done some +2 2.34 setups as well. I have also done a 2.34 with a +4 rod, and while really nice we don't do them that often due to the lead time for +4 rods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
I think TiC mostly build them to a 2.5. Most of the time at least...
yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorbykemike View Post
TIC can do a +2 or 4mm rod destroker in a bunch of bore sizes

and the 2.5 +2 is pretty sweet also, I think they called it the "honey badger"

personally i'll have a sleeved 101mm or closed deck 99.75 bore , 75mm crank , +2mm rod destroker for the bang per buck quotient , and I like they way the destrokers feel

my 99.5 +2mm budget destroker was very linear but I needed more turbo
yep, but when you start messing with bore sizes you're talking sleeves, and sometimes a custom piston. that takes if out of budget for 95% of folks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stu View Post
I really wanted to do a +2 2.34, but I live at 7000 ft and I've heard they are a bit more lazy than the 2.5 down low and that really adds up at altitude. I need to meet someone here in Colorado that has one so I can see how it feels.
I love the revs of a 2.34, but we're a good bit lower than you for elevation. In your case I would stick with the larger displacement.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
There was a lot of activity on this forum a couple years back with +2mm rods and stroker (83mm) pistons, which seems to have died out.

Any builders out there that are still doing this?

The obvious benefits are documented, TDC dwell, improved rod angle, piston speeds etc. So what happened? Why have most builders gone back to standard stroke, standard rod length etc?

Any input eagerly anticipated.
Yes people/shops still do it....it was really popular with the destroker setups but that fad seems to be dieing. IMO unless your into RR/Time Attack the destroker is a waste but you can't go wrong with a 2.5l and +2 rods.

IAG makes a nice I/Tri beam +2 rod for a reasonable price.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Manley makes those rods for Dom, and Dom only. If you want a set you have to go through him or through the few places that get them from him. Dom, us or Woolman would be the go to places that I am aware of.
Are you guys going to have them listed on your website? I have a EJ25 block I plan to build this summer. I need to buy rods and pistons for it and was considering doing a +2 rod set up. I've been trying to find them in h beam or h tuff.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isurfnj1 View Post
Are you guys going to have them listed on your website? I have a EJ25 block I plan to build this summer. I need to buy rods and pistons for it and was considering doing a +2 rod set up. I've been trying to find them in h beam or h tuff.
Eventually. We're in the middle of completely rebuilding the site so once we go live we'll be adding all sorts of new things.
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:36 PM   #16
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Doesn't the compression ratio go down when you do this? Like 0.4 or so?
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Old 04-25-2017, 07:40 AM   #17
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only when destroked
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stu View Post
I really wanted to do a +2 2.34, but I live at 7000 ft and I've heard they are a bit more lazy than the 2.5 down low and that really adds up at altitude. I need to meet someone here in Colorado that has one so I can see how it feels.
I live in CO as well. When i finally get around to finishing my wiring i would be more than happy to take you for a ride in it!
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorbykemike View Post
only when destroked
Isn't that what this does? Takes an 83mm stroke piston and only moves it 79mm?
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:26 AM   #20
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Just so I am clear, because I am working on this myself for a EJ22 CDB....

The "+2" rods are the 5.181 (131.6mm) length rods correct?

Or is there some other market rod that is 5.22" (132.5mm) ?


Also, what kinds of rod clearance issues have people seen with the long rod <--> 79mm cranks?

Last edited by station2station; 04-25-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:32 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Yep - +2mm rod and a stroker piston. you don't have to do anything weird like space the cases for the wrist pin insertion like on the 2.34.

There isn't any actually spaces machined into the block or added?
You simply mean that during assembly the block halves have to be seperated to line the wrist pin holes correct?
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by station2station View Post
There isn't any actually spaces machined into the block or added?
You simply mean that during assembly the block halves have to be seperated to line the wrist pin holes correct?


+4mm destrokers are very fun to put together is what he means


+2 jobbies are cake
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmanfred View Post
I live in CO as well. When i finally get around to finishing my wiring i would be more than happy to take you for a ride in it!
Yah for sure. let me know when your in the springs.
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Old 04-25-2017, 05:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Isn't that what this does? Takes an 83mm stroke piston and only moves it 79mm?
Yes and no.

It is not actually "destroked" because the crank throw of 79mm remains the same. Using "de-stroked" pistons simply provides the piston clearance (by moving the wrist pin up and shortening the skirts) to account for the +2mm at the top of the stroke and -2mm at the bottom of the stroke for the longer rods as I understand it.

The piston actually moves 158mm since it has 79mm throw at the top and bottom. You add them to get total swept length.

Last edited by Team Scream; 04-25-2017 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:00 PM   #25
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http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/T...calculator.xls

I like to ponder about different configurations using this. Thought this might be a good place to share?
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