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Old 04-05-2016, 12:45 PM   #251
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The infrastructure is growing in the South East some gas station now have EV chargers and Tesla is adding chargers. I don't really understand why is so hard to plug in your car at home when you get there from work... . If you are making a really long trip rent a car. The farthest I am willing to drive is 4 hours, If I am going farther than that I just by a plane ticket. EV is perfect for me; my commute to work is 30 minutes, the Atlanta airport is 3 hours from house and the Charlotte airport is 2 hours away. I also have solar panels so it makes sense.

By the way the national average work commute is 25.5 minutes



Yeah used EV's are cheap look at the nissan leaf but IMO is because the federal incentives, the market knows that the owner really didn't pay 30k for their brand new cars. When the federal incentives end I think prices will go up.
These are the sites I use to lookup chargers if I'm driving far in the EV.

http://www.chargepoint.com/
https://www.blinknetwork.com/

Those are 2 different networks locally. You'd be surprised how many chargers are around. Some are located at municipalities, some at .edu's, here many of them are at restaurants, malls, movie theaters, and pharmacies. There is plenty of 240V's. I don't use those though, only the 480v's. I've got 240 at home.

You can also buy EVSE's at homedepot, amazon, etc. Just type "evse" into their searches and you'll see all the options. $500 on average, and pay an electrician to wire it into a 40 or 50 amp breaker on your electrical panel. Once you have a 240v charger in your garage you'll use the public charging infrastructure minimally.

I do the same as you. If I'm leaving my metroplex, which is huge, I rent a vehicle. Foreign turf I prefer to have a rental with the optional insurance, especially during storm season. 2 years ago, I did this, it hailed golf balls, beat the rental up like hell. All I had to do is state what happened, sign, and the end. With the gas money you'll be saving you can easily build a rental fund. 3 hours is my limit. Any more I'm getting on a plane and renting a beater when I get there.

The EV is no where near being able to replace a weekend sports car, or track vehicle, but for a DD, it's perfect. Say goodbye to your service center at your dealership. You'll only deal with the mfr if there is a recall or problem. I like that. In 2 years of driving my EV I've seen the dealership one time, to replace the in-cabin air filter. I've also rotated the tires twice.
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Old 04-05-2016, 01:45 PM   #252
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Ok, here's my next question: I pay $1400/year for gas in my XV. Over 5 years, that's $7k. I have a $20k car. How does buying a new EV save me money over those 5 years when they're $37k to begin with, (with the $7k rebate bringing it down to $30k).

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Old 04-05-2016, 01:46 PM   #253
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I know this was stated before, but why do people think you need to charge to 100% every time. The Chargers work just like any other that ramps down the closer you are to full. You can get 80% in a matter of minutes, and not much more to get to 90%, but it will take an hour to get to 100%.

Its a lot like filling your car up. You can get it 90% full in 5 minutes, but if you are trying to fill the filler tube, you can be there another 20 minutes with the pump clicking on and off trying not to overflow down the side of the car.
That's not correct. Full is when the pump shuts off. Come on, you know that. And it only takes me less than 3 min to fill a car (usually 3 min from pay to pump to cap to drive), and I can get it to overflow in 3 min 2 seconds.

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Old 04-05-2016, 02:00 PM   #254
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Ok, here's my next question: I pay $1400/year for gas in my XV. Over 5 years, that's $7k. I have a $20k car. How does buying a new EV save me money over those 5 years when they're $37k to begin with, (with the $7k rebate bringing it down to $30k).

--kC
You are comparing an entry type car (low cost automobile) and comparing it to a 3 series equivalent. That's not any different than you stating "I drive a Subaru XV, how does buying a new BMW 3 series save me any money?"

Different class of car dude, by a good margin. A Nissan Leaf would be a better comparison for you. The new one that is supposed to debut this year should have at least a 175 mile range, and it is more of an economy car compared to the new Tesla.
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:19 PM   #255
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Ok, here's my next question: I pay $1400/year for gas in my XV. Over 5 years, that's $7k. I have a $20k car. How does buying a new EV save me money over those 5 years when they're $37k to begin with, (with the $7k rebate bringing it down to $30k).

--kC
What if your intent is to buy a Tesla because you like it, and not to save gas?

I bought a VW to save myself from spending 100% of it on a WRX, or a Focus ST, or maybe a used Z06...

Lets just compare why we spend our money on one car, and not any others.






Last edited by Skylab; 04-05-2016 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Why do I even bother...
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:50 PM   #256
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That's not correct. Full is when the pump shuts off. Come on, you know that. And it only takes me less than 3 min to fill a car (usually 3 min from pay to pump to cap to drive), and I can get it to overflow in 3 min 2 seconds.

--kC
That's not true. In a lot of cars you can get an extra 2 to 8 gallons (the Ford F250) in there by slow pumping and not triggering the safety valve thorugh splash back. That's not how the gauge is calibrated though, one of the reasons there is so much flux if you only track mileage by fill up instead if actual fuel added.

How many times do you put 11 gallons in on a car that is spec'd with an 11 gallon tank? Part of that is what's left, the other is the capacity no used because the pump is triggered early.
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:57 PM   #257
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In 2 years of driving my EV I've seen the dealership one time, to replace the in-cabin air filter. I've also rotated the tires twice.
While I understand the advantages of an EV with fuel and maintenance savings, what are the other maintenance costs associated with an EV? It doesn't sound like you haven't reached those miles yet but what does the Leaf maintenance schedule say as the years and mileage add up? I've read Tesla's needing battery coolant changed at 4yr/50k. Tires, brake pads/fluid, shocks, filter cabin are still consumables.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:03 PM   #258
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While I understand the advantages of an EV with fuel and maintenance savings, what are the other maintenance costs associated with an EV? It doesn't sound like you haven't reached those miles yet but what does the Leaf maintenance schedule say as the years and mileage add up? I've read Tesla's needing battery coolant changed at 4yr/50k. Tires, brake pads/fluid, shocks, filter cabin are still consumables.
Timing belt at 60K

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Old 04-05-2016, 03:08 PM   #259
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How many times do you put 11 gallons in on a car that is spec'd with an 11 gallon tank? Part of that is what's left, the other is the capacity no used because the pump is triggered early.
Never - Always less. On a car with an 11 gallon tank, a low fuel light will come on when you have about 2-3 gallons left, depending on MFR. It's understood that one wouldn't be putting 11 gallons back in, but less. Only when you run completely out of gas will you be putting 11 gallons back in an 11 gallon tank.

In my XV, according to both a) real life and b) the manual - the light comes on when there is around 3 gallons (as a reserve) left in the car. On a 15 gallon tank, if I fill up right when the light comes on, it takes 12 gallons.

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Old 04-05-2016, 03:09 PM   #260
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You are comparing an entry type car (low cost automobile) and comparing it to a 3 series equivalent. That's not any different than you stating "I drive a Subaru XV, how does buying a new BMW 3 series save me any money?"

Different class of car dude, by a good margin. A Nissan Leaf would be a better comparison for you. The new one that is supposed to debut this year should have at least a 175 mile range, and it is more of an economy car compared to the new Tesla.
Isn't their new 3 Teslas entry level model? I get your reference through. I didn't buy an Impreza, I bought an XV as an upgrade j/k

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Old 04-05-2016, 03:15 PM   #261
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What if your intent is to buy a Tesla because you like it, and not to save gas?

I bought a VW to save myself from spending 100% of it on a WRX, or a Focus ST, or maybe a used Z06...

Lets just compare why we spend our money on one car, and not any others.

It was a direct rebuttal to some in this thread justifying their purchase because they no longer have to by gas or issues thereof (like mhoward, et. al.). I agree, it shouldn't enter into discussion.

Sure, I understand there are many reasons why people buy one car over another. But "because no gas" shouldn't be the only reason, but a byproduct.

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Old 04-05-2016, 03:28 PM   #262
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Never - Always less. On a car with an 11 gallon tank, a low fuel light will come on when you have about 2-3 gallons left, depending on MFR. It's understood that one wouldn't be putting 11 gallons back in, but less. Only when you run completely out of gas will you be putting 11 gallons back in an 11 gallon tank.

In my XV, according to both a) real life and b) the manual - the light comes on when there is around 3 gallons (as a reserve) left in the car. On a 15 gallon tank, if I fill up right when the light comes on, it takes 12 gallons.

--kC
I guess part of the issue is the EVs "gauge" is a lot more accurate than their ICE counterparts and many look at that as a downside.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:43 PM   #263
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While I understand the advantages of an EV with fuel and maintenance savings, what are the other maintenance costs associated with an EV? It doesn't sound like you haven't reached those miles yet but what does the Leaf maintenance schedule say as the years and mileage add up? I've read Tesla's needing battery coolant changed at 4yr/50k. Tires, brake pads/fluid, shocks, filter cabin are still consumables.
Yes they sure are, but how often are those necessary? None of them are the powertrain. The DC motors in the Teslas are rated for hundreds of thousands of miles. So no gas = savings. Electricity is 1/10th the cost of gas in a car. No oil changes. Rotate your tires. And the in cabin filter in a Tesla is massive. Musk once showed it in his hands vs. a Mercedes. Big difference. Don't know the recommended interval to change it. A friend in the car business has worked on dozens of Teslas. He told me he has asked the owners of each. Out of all of them, about maintenance, and it was zero. 1 had a failed ipad screen that needed to be replaced. Then there was another time where he had to take one to a shop a few miles away for tint. The owner called him because he saw the car moving on his app and thought it was stolen. I guess GPS tracking is built into all of them, view-able on their phone app. From what I've read the consumables you mentioned are going to have to be done at some point on any car ever made, whether it be gas, diesel, electric, or hydrogen powered.

It's not that difficult. You are buying a 3 series equivalent in performance without the fuel costs and without the running costs. Both are less. And the Model S is the safest car ever built by any mfr., ever. The 3 is supposed to be 5 star all the way around and comparable. Insurance rates aren't too bad either.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:45 PM   #264
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Isn't their new 3 Teslas entry level model? I get your reference through. I didn't buy an Impreza, I bought an XV as an upgrade j/k

--kC
About like saying a BMW 3 series is BMW's entry level sedan. In the marketplace against all mfr's neither are entry level cars. You know what it means. It was a dumb comparison. An Impreza vs. a premium automobile. The XV is just a lift kit equipped Impreza.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:09 PM   #265
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Electricity is 1/10th the cost of gas in a car.
Not quite.

By Tesla's calculator, charging up from using 60 miles in a day at 40amps is going to cost at least $2.38 @ .12 per Kwh and worse if you're using a 110v. For me it will be closer to $3.17 as supply and distribution charges from national grid add up to about .16 per Kwh. Assuming 30mpg and $2 gas, that's $4 for equivalent range on an ICE car.

Obviously the Tesla is still cheaper, and will get even better if gas goes up and electricity stays somewhat stable, but it's not 1/10th the price.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:32 PM   #266
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Not quite.

By Tesla's calculator, charging up from using 60 miles in a day at 40amps is going to cost at least $2.38 @ .12 per Kwh and worse if you're using a 110v. For me it will be closer to $3.17 as supply and distribution charges from national grid add up to about .16 per Kwh. Assuming 30mpg and $2 gas, that's $4 for equivalent range on an ICE car.

Obviously the Tesla is still cheaper, and will get even better if gas goes up and electricity stays somewhat stable, but it's not 1/10th the price.
and assuming that the current gasoline prices are going to stay low
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:38 PM   #267
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Not quite.

By Tesla's calculator, charging up from using 60 miles in a day at 40amps is going to cost at least $2.38 @ .12 per Kwh and worse if you're using a 110v. For me it will be closer to $3.17 as supply and distribution charges from national grid add up to about .16 per Kwh. Assuming 30mpg and $2 gas, that's $4 for equivalent range on an ICE car.

Obviously the Tesla is still cheaper, and will get even better if gas goes up and electricity stays somewhat stable, but it's not 1/10th the price.
My kwh rate is vastly different than yours. Regular plans (I have solar panels and utilize a free nights kwh program) around here can be had for .07 all day long. Obviously MPG in whatever you are comparing it to factors in. Also, regular, 89, or 92 octane as well which is why their calculator isn't really accurate. A lot of factors so it isn't that simple. When I was actually paying to charge my car, it was between $5-10 a month in electricity, depending on how much I used the free public charging options, mainly the 480v chademos. Home charger, that's on a 240v dedicated wall charger at 32 amps continuous. I don't drive 60 miles a day. I was spending about 1/10th to what I was in fossil because I used the equivalent of the Tesla Superchargers (480v chademos installed by NRG). And those 480v's were free for me to use (still are until July). I don't think Tesla charges to use theirs either. So when you have some free gas stations you can use, to make that comparison understandable, let me know.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:41 PM   #268
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It was a direct rebuttal to some in this thread justifying their purchase because they no longer have to by gas or issues thereof (like mhoward, et. al.). I agree, it shouldn't enter into discussion.

Sure, I understand there are many reasons why people buy one car over another. But "because no gas" shouldn't be the only reason, but a byproduct.

--kC
It is a convenience though. No longer having to stop for gas, just plug in at home / work and you have a full tank. No stopping, no getting gas on your hands, no wasted money on half assed beef jerkey, etc...
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:47 PM   #269
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It is a convenience though. No longer having to stop for gas, just plug in at home / work and you have a full tank. No stopping, no getting gas on your hands, no wasted money on half assed beef jerkey, etc...
No more having to listen to blown out amped speakers blasting Tejano, or Dirty South Rap either. No more f'ing with the pump or credit card reader when it's cold, windy or raining. I use the superchargers when I need them but 90% of the time is definitely at home these days for why you said. I wait until 9pm, when my electricity is free and plug the ho in.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:53 PM   #270
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Where do Tesla's supercharging/charging stations get their electricity from? Fossil fuels, renewable, or both?
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:06 PM   #271
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No more having to listen to blown out amped speakers blasting Tejano, or Dirty South Rap either. No more f'ing with the pump or credit card reader when it's cold, windy or raining. I use the superchargers when I need them but 90% of the time is definitely at home these days for why you said. I wait until 9pm, when my electricity is free and plug the ho in.
LOL I almost forgot about that. Yeah pumping your own gas when it's 10F out and a 30mph wind... Done with those days. Why did people like gas again?
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:08 PM   #272
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Where do Tesla's supercharging/charging stations get their electricity from? Fossil fuels, renewable, or both?
They're aiming for 100% renewable with Solar PV + Tesla energy battery packs, but the expansion has happened so fast most stations pull from the local grid. Stations without solar often still use Tesla Energy battery packs to buffer peak demand from the utility.
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:09 PM   #273
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it isn't that simple
Glad we agree as that was my point. Electricity may be 1/10 the price for you with solar panels, free electricity at night, and free charging stations nearby, but that's certainly not the norm and shouldn't be cited generically to someone asking about EV costs.
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:21 PM   #274
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Glad we agree as that was my point. Electricity may be 1/10 the price for you with solar panels, free electricity at night, and free charging stations nearby, but that's certainly not the norm and shouldn't be cited generically to someone asking about EV costs.
Eh, the consumption numbers for the Model 3 aren't out yet, but based on educated guessing it's about 215Wh/mi. If you live in a state with one of the highest electricity prices ever, that means you pay .215*.195=$0.042/mile. If you lived in an average state, you'd pay .215*.12=$0.026/mile. If you own a BMW 328i, you'd pay 27/2.40=$0.089/mile.

I'll leave out the "electricity is cheap in your state" because clearly the Model 3 wins in every case.
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Old 04-05-2016, 06:11 PM   #275
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Eh, the consumption numbers for the Model 3 aren't out yet, but based on educated guessing it's about 215Wh/mi. If you live in a state with one of the highest electricity prices ever, that means you pay .215*.195=$0.042/mile. If you lived in an average state, you'd pay .215*.12=$0.026/mile. If you own a BMW 328i, you'd pay 27/2.40=$0.089/mile.

I'll leave out the "electricity is cheap in your state" because clearly the Model 3 wins in every case.
That's assuming 100% charge efficiency, correct? Though even at 80% the 3 is still on top.

Good stuff.
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