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Old 12-21-2019, 11:23 PM   #326
Fierysun
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
I've provided countless dynos to support my claims. What have you provided?

Feel free to prove to me wrong in regards to my last post. I'll gladly admit when I'm wrong. I'd love to have 400 whp on my STI with a broad, flat torque curve like my FA had.. without spending thousands to upgrade the header, turbo, fuel system, etc.
LOL! Countless? Really? Like i said, the EJ's is a well documented motor throughout the world. Just use Google and some critical thinking. It's not hidden or secret. It's right there if you look. Also, if you want more first hand information, call tuning shops that specializes in Subaru's where they have tuned thousands. You would get even more information.

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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post

I think most people that are so anti-FA20 haven't driven one.. especially one tuned on flex fuel. They're truly impressive with such little investment even with the stock turbo and fuel system.

People don't like change and will continue to be against the FA until it proves its potential in the next gen STI.
Have you driven/ridden in a well put together EJ on e85 that puts out 500whp+? You should make some friends and not burn them all away here in this thread.

Also, for the nth time, people are against the FA because it's weak and there is no solid evidence that it will be any better then what it is now. So until Subaru can provide evidence that's not the case, it's not going to easily win people over.
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Old 12-21-2019, 11:41 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
Have you driven/ridden in a well put together EJ on e85 that puts out 500whp+?

Also, for the nth time, people are against the FA because it's weak and there is no solid evidence that it will be any better then what it is now. So until Subaru can provide evidence that's not the case, it's not going to easily win people over.
have you read anything that I've posted? I've said the EJ is the better engine at this time if you want a high horsepower, 500+ whp build. I have no desire to mod my daily driver that far nor do average enthusiasts. Why don't you reread my post..

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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Exactly. The issue is that their definition of "better" is different.

I see the FA as being the better engine because of its advancements in engineering and technology, higher specific output (HP/L), broader powerband, improved efficiency, etc. From a factory engineering perspective, it's better.

Their definition of better is higher peak power levels with a fully built engine and 15+ years of aftermarket support. That's a true statement, but it's not what Subaru provided from the factory or the reality of what average enthusiasts do with their cars.

Neither perspective is wrong, we're just talking about personal preferences for builds.

I believe the FA is the better engine for a performance oriented, mildly tuned, daily driver. With an AP, flex fuel sensor & tune, the FA20 is capable of 320+ whp with everything else mechanically stock while returning excellent fuel economy. It's capable of 400whp with bolt-ons, stock block, stock turbo, stock fuel system. It provides a very wide torque band from ~3,000 to 6,000 rpm.

The EJ257 requires investing thousands more for a turbo & fuel system upgrade to reach 400 whp.. and it will have a narrower peak torque band. It will also make more peak torque thanks to its extra 463cc of displacement. Remember, we're comparing a 2.5L STI engine vs a 2.0L WRX engine... apples to oranges comparison.

The FA24DIT dyno I posted makes over 400 ft-lb from ~3,200 rpm to 6,200 rpm.. and that's a SUV derived engine. I'm excited to see its potential if it goes into the next STI. I really hope they add dual injection and raise the redline beyond the FA20's & EJ257's low redlines. I bet we'll see 400-450 whp as the norm for the next STI with bolt-ons and flex fuel (on the stock turbo & fuel system).

It's all preference and perspective. No one is right or wrong. If we had received the EJ207 in the US (preferably the version from the S208 with forged pistons, VF58 twin scroll ball bearing turbo & 8k rpm redline) then my feelings on the FA vs EJ debate may be different.
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Old 12-21-2019, 11:49 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
have you read anything that I've posted? I've said the EJ is the better engine at this time if you want a high horsepower, 500+ whp build. I have no desire to mod my daily driver that far nor do average enthusiasts. Why don't you reread my post..
I don't think you get mine and other peoples point about the FA. You think sub 400whp is super wonderful, when that doesn't even get some peoples heart beating, and because of this. There's no love for the FA. Also, 500whp EJ daily drivers are completely drivable with fast spooling and quick rev'ing broad powerband (don't take my word for it, research it yourself) Which is a completely different experience than with the stock VF turbo and setup. Because of all this, there's no reason to put an FA in an STI. Keep it in the WRX for people like you and stop fighting for the sub par engine in the STI.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:11 AM   #329
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I don't think you get mine and other peoples point about the FA. You think sub 400whp is super wonderful, when that doesn't even get some peoples heart beating, and because of this. There's no love for the FA. Also, 500whp EJ daily drivers are completely drivable with fast spooling and quick rev'ing broad powerband (don't take my word for it, research it yourself) Which is a completely different experience than with the stock VF turbo and setup. Because of all this, there's no reason to put an FA in an STI. Keep it in the WRX for people like you and stop fighting for the sub par engine in the STI.
You're welcome to have your opinion (as I stated in my post).. but the next gen STI will have a FA engine, not an EJ. We can't prove that it'll be a better or worse engine until it's released... and even then "better" is subjective to each individual.

However, it will have more modern engineering and be more efficient. The stock setup will certainly be more responsive with a broad torque curve starting in the lower RPM range (ELH, twin scroll turbo, DI, larger stroke, etc.).

Clearly your personal priority is more about the potential of fully built, high power builds. The reality is that most WRX/STIs sold remain stock or follow the standard Cobb stages. A very small percentage of buyers build 500+ whp builds.. especially on brand new cars under warranty.

As the FA20 does have faults, I hope Subaru adds forged rods, dual injection and improves the stock tune so that a stage 1 tune isn't an immediate requirement.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 12-22-2019 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:16 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
However, it will have more modern engineering and be more efficient. The stock setup will certainly be more responsive with a broad torque curve starting in the lower RPM range.

Clearly your personal priority is more about the potential of fully built, high power builds. The reality is that most WRX/STIs sold remain stock or follow the standard Cobb stages. A very small percentage of buyers build 500+ whp builds.. especially on brand new cars under warranty.
Again, you like to purely speculate, when you have no facts. Do you really think only a small percentage of STI owners help build the gigantic aftermarket for the EJ? Dude, you are so misinformed and you are purely operating on subjective opinions.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:17 AM   #331
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The usdm never got the cool ej’s with the high revving heads and forged pistons so there’s that . The ej design can’t continue in a new car. It’s inefficient and thirsty for occasional to regular sips of oil.

I like many others wanted a s209 that was par for Japan in previous gens with all the goodies..especially that handbuilt forged engine. That’s special from what was before and what was promised for the new and first s model for the USA. 14 point whatever in the quattro mile wouldn’t matter.

I know ej’s can run fast and make power. I’ve done it. Most people on here have done it too. It’s not a reliable power plant and super inefficient. The big valley guys were running high 9’s with the ej 15 years ago. The ej can make power and run. Saw them blow up their crawford motor in spectacular fashion in 2006 Pennsylvania. Remember all that Crawford motors piston slap stuff from years ago?

But there is now better power plant options to work with from Subaru for power and efficiency. No question.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:30 AM   #332
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Again, you like to purely speculate, when you have no facts. Do you really think only a small percentage of STI owners help build the gigantic aftermarket for the EJ? Dude, you are so misinformed and you are purely operating on subjective opinions.
You're right. The next gen STI will keep the ancient EJ with its inefficient UELH, single scroll journal bearing turbo, and terrible fuel economy. The vast majority of STI owners do 500+ whp builds on their brand new cars.. at least what, 50%? 75%? Because that many people have an extra $10-20k to dump into their $40k car and sacrifice their new car warranty.

An STI isn't going to be most people's first choice if they want that kind of power (reliably) and have that kind of money.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 12-22-2019 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:31 AM   #333
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The usdm never got the cool ejís with the high revving heads and forged pistons so thereís that . The ej design canít continue in a new car. Itís inefficient and thirsty for occasional to regular sips of oil.

I like many others wanted a s209 that was par for Japan in previous gens with all the goodies..especially that handbuilt forged engine. Thatís special from what was before and what was promised for the new and first s model for the USA. 14 point whatever in the quattro mile wouldnít matter.

I know ejís can run fast and make power. Iíve done it. Most people on here have done it too. Itís not a reliable power plant and super inefficient. The big valley guys were running high 9ís with the ej 15 years ago. The ej can make power and run. Saw them blow up their crawford motor in spectacular fashion in 2006 Pennsylvania. Remember all that Crawford motors piston slap stuff from years ago?

But there is now better power plant options to work with from Subaru for power and efficiency. No question.
Well said. Glad to see others agree.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:35 AM   #334
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A properly driven stage 1 WRX is a low to mid 13 second car, heck I have seen a MAP tuned one dip into 12ís. I guess your Golf Rrrrrrrrrrrrr is a factory freak low 12s car since it can walk one ďbadĒ. Of course a DSG R is way quicker with stage 1 but it is also significantly more expensive and that flash will come with a bye, bye warranty TD1. A 6 speed R isnít even all that. MAP has a GTI and WRX as development cars. All stages, E30 and so on. You can educate yourself and watch their YouTube Chanel or visit their site for dyno information. Heck, they even have a thread in MK7 forums in the VS section that seemed to have rustled a lot of VW fanbois jimmies. Iíll post some OTS E30 stage 2 WRX vs RS3 stage 1 and FBO Coyotes with slicks videos later on since on my phone.
there is no way a stage 1 2015+ wrx is running in the low 13's unless its flex fuel, i had one. and the map gti walked their wrx. i liked the chassis and suspension in my wrx, i just couldnt get past the engine and exhaust. they also refuse to toss any tech at their cars. why not adaptive shocks like everyone else has? they are awesome. ive always said a base wrx is a good value, but i want more and subaru doesnt offer anything close to what i want.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:40 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
You're right. The next gen STI will keep the ancient EJ with its inefficient UELH, single scroll journal bearing turbo, and terrible fuel economy. The vast majority of STI owners do 500+ whp builds on their brand new cars.. at least what, 50%? 75%? Because that many people have an extra $10-20k to dump into their $40k car and sacrifice their new car warranty.
Lol, have you considered they do it after the warranty has expired?
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:46 AM   #336
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Lol, have you considered they do it after the warranty has expired?
Well in that case we need to speculate even more.. what engine Subaru will have developed and what the aftermarket support for it will be like in another 5-6 years
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:50 AM   #337
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Well in that case we need to speculate even more.. what engine Subaru will have developed and what the aftermarket support for it will be like in 5-6 years from now
You do realize this is one of the reasons that aftermarket development takes alot of time? Which hurts the FA.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:55 AM   #338
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You do realize this is one of the reasons that aftermarket development takes alot of time? Which hurts the FA.
yep, ive learned to not be the guinea pig. my 07 sti was one of the earlier ones to get tuned and that was before cobb and all the tuners knew about the DAM in the 07+ ecu. after shattering a ringland, i tossed a built block in the car before it even had 5,000 miles on it.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:56 AM   #339
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You do realize this is one of the reasons that aftermarket development takes alot of time? Which hurts the FA.
If by hurt you mean exceeding 500+ whp.. then yes. Built FA20s are already in the 450-500 whp range and finally reaching the capacity of the stock injectors. Now that speed density tuning is available, the fuel system is the limitation for built FA20s. Auxiliary port injection options are in the works to get past that hurdle.

Again.. I've never argued that the FA has the higher power potential or aftermarket support. It has more modern engineering and is more efficient.

Last edited by WRXnick16; 12-22-2019 at 01:10 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 12-22-2019, 01:19 AM   #340
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If by hurt you mean exceeding 500+ whp.. then yes. Built FA20s are already in the 450-500 whp range and finally reaching the capacity of the stock injectors. Now that speed density tuning is available, the fuel system is the limitation for built FA20s. Auxiliary port injection options are in the works to get past that hurdle.
and yet Subaru skipped putting the FA into the STI, after 5 years of it being out. That's what you are ignoring and assuming that just because they have another FA now in the Ascent and Outback that the STI is going to get THAT engine. If anything the STI would have had a built up version of the FA from the WRX and they didnt. What makes you think the FA24 is going to be any different.

And Again they are throwing development at the EJ257 to improve it, those things together should tell you they wanted to and want to continue using the EJ257 in the STI. Efficiency and Fuel mileage aren't a priority with the STI as they would be with the majority of any brands model line up. The STI gearing keeps it in its torque curve on the street and on tracks....all you need to do is know how to drive it LOL and keep it in the correct gear for what you want. All the mods available allow to tailor that horsepower and torque curve to virtually anything you want it to be.

There is zero anything that the STI is getting the Ascent engine....zero,,,except rumor and wishful thinking. Look at the facts not your emotions. The EJ257 is the alpha dog in the STI for the foreseeable future. These other engines aren't suited for the STI.

Last edited by NighthawkSTI; 12-22-2019 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 12-22-2019, 09:33 AM   #341
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It's odd how differently you interpret their actions to justify your narrow view. The rest of us see the delay of the FA as Subaru's way to ensure it comes out the door swinging. Putting it in the Ascent, Legacy and Outback just does more last minute real world R&D for them. Subaru knows they have to get it right from the beginning to convince people like YOU that it's "worthy".

Also, it's good business to continue updating the EJ257 if they have the means to do so. They now know people will pay crazy amounts of money for an STI just because Subaru "improves" it.

Yet, here you are, actively fighting against the possibility of the FA24DIT being good, or maybe even *gasp* "better" than the EJ. It's just super, super sad that you don't understand what others want in a new engine.

You do realize that even if we agree with you about the power of the EJ being better that the EJ can't continue to exist in today's automotive industry, right? Regulations actively killed it. Even before the STI came out, we couldn't get the EJ207, so they had to make something special for North America.

The EJ has to die so that the STI can live on.
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Old 12-22-2019, 10:35 AM   #342
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The 2018+ EJ STIs are slower than a WRX used to be.

Clearly, this extra ďdevelopmentĒ isnít a good thing. The STI gets the gas mileage of a supercar while being as fast as a minivan.
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Old 12-22-2019, 11:18 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
you should have had that kind of detail in your original claim that no WRX debut/came here with 296 horsepower when we actually got an EJ257 with 300 in 2004 STI(the first U.S WRX STI), but I digress. Either Both FA's available here are making less then the STI EJ257 then and now.

Also overlooking the fact that lot of people wanted an engine like the 2.0 they have in japan STI's back at the end of the GD era hoping that the GR's were going to get a high revving 2.0. The STI still got the Ej257 and again 8 years later in 2015, the WRX got a Direct injected 2.0...and the STI still got the 257....and still has it 5 years after THAT.

I mean ya the 2.4 is the only other logical engine to replace the EJ257 but until it happens, its just the same old rumors that have been debated about since the end of the GD era.

I'm glad I own a GD...cruised today and it has PLENTY of torque. More than I need on the street. Granted its stage 2 but the peaky torque talk is way overblown...the gear ratios in the STI get it into its torque band really quickly and keep it there. Its called being in the right gear to stay in the power band. Easy.
The FAs here are making less HP than the 257 because, wait for it.........it's not a STI spec engine yet.

And any future product are just rumors until they come out. Duh. We are not oblivious to that. Spend a day and go waaaaay back and see speculation on future models and find out how people have gotten their "guesses" correct.

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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
LOL! Countless? Really? Like i said, the EJ's is a well documented motor throughout the world. Just use Google and some critical thinking. It's not hidden or secret. It's right there if you look. Also, if you want more first hand information, call tuning shops that specializes in Subaru's where they have tuned thousands. You would get even more information.



Have you driven/ridden in a well put together EJ on e85 that puts out 500whp+? You should make some friends and not burn them all away here in this thread.

Also, for the nth time, people are against the FA because it's weak and there is no solid evidence that it will be any better then what it is now. So until Subaru can provide evidence that's not the case, it's not going to easily win people over.

Sounds like you could take your own advice. Call these tuners you are referring to. Ask if they are working on a 2.4DIT and if they are, ask their opinion of it.

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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
I don't think you get mine and other peoples point about the FA. You think sub 400whp is super wonderful, when that doesn't even get some peoples heart beating, and because of this. There's no love for the FA. Also, 500whp EJ daily drivers are completely drivable with fast spooling and quick rev'ing broad powerband (don't take my word for it, research it yourself) Which is a completely different experience than with the stock VF turbo and setup. Because of all this, there's no reason to put an FA in an STI. Keep it in the WRX for people like you and stop fighting for the sub par engine in the STI.
The "reason" to put an FA in the STI is not because of aftermarket. It's for warranty. THAT is probably one of the funniest reasons I've seen about it. STOCK FOR STOCK the FA is a better engine. THAT is how a company makes it decisions. Tuners will bring the FA up to EJ levels. Who knows. Maybe even further.

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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
Again, you like to purely speculate, when you have no facts. Do you really think only a small percentage of STI owners help build the gigantic aftermarket for the EJ? Dude, you are so misinformed and you are purely operating on subjective opinions.

Your's is only speculation as well unless you can provide evidence. No reason to even respond to this statement without that evidence either; but, I know you will.

BUT.......to give you something to ponder while you think of something to respond with, the EJ was in more than just the WRX and STI. Enough reasoning to have an aftermarket. And, yeah, it's huge because it's been around for FREAKING 17 years.
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Old 12-22-2019, 11:40 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
It's odd how differently you interpret their actions to justify your narrow view. The rest of us see the delay of the FA as Subaru's way to ensure it comes out the door swinging. Putting it in the Ascent, Legacy and Outback just does more last minute real world R&D for them. Subaru knows they have to get it right from the beginning to convince people like YOU that it's "worthy".

Also, it's good business to continue updating the EJ257 if they have the means to do so. They now know people will pay crazy amounts of money for an STI just because Subaru "improves" it.

Yet, here you are, actively fighting against the possibility of the FA24DIT being good, or maybe even *gasp* "better" than the EJ. It's just super, super sad that you don't understand what others want in a new engine.

You do realize that even if we agree with you about the power of the EJ being better that the EJ can't continue to exist in today's automotive industry, right? Regulations actively killed it. Even before the STI came out, we couldn't get the EJ207, so they had to make something special for North America.

The EJ has to die so that the STI can live on.
I don’t think there’s any interpretation happening, but rather barfing out the same head-up-ass, head-in-sand, broken-record troll posts page after page. It’s a very ignorant stance to not embrace what’s coming to the STI.
It’s coming. Can’t stop it. (Don’t want to stop it)

Troll needs to go.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:30 PM   #345
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Oh wow... this has gone far enough off topic that it's completely run off course.

/thread
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