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Old 11-20-2023, 03:10 PM   #501
20WRX20
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Just no need or purpose whatsoever for the cladding on this body.

They should have done it just like the VA with the fender flare cutoff behind the front wheel, but made it an actual vent like everyone is doing these days.

Even if they did nothing and made it plain like revogu it would have been more than fine. The little bit extra paint/less plastic on the rear bumper goes a long way also.


There would be a brand new WRX in my garage right now if it looked like this. I donít even care about the wagon, just make the sedan look like this. Why is Subaru having such a hard time with the design of the VB? Is there some law in the US that says unpainted plastic has to be clipped to the fenders and bumpers? Itís so stupid.
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Old 11-20-2023, 03:40 PM   #502
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Yeah, they should definitely bring a wagon here so about 5 people would buy it.
Yet they still sell the Legacy sedanÖ.canít fathom that would outsell a Levorg.
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Old 11-20-2023, 04:18 PM   #503
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We have seen this movie before. We know how it ends.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...isguised-suvs/

No company in their right mind would waste their time and money with this in the US market.

The 2024 Impreza is ONLY coming out as a hatchback, but please, by all means continue to regurgitate played-out industry "truths".
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Old 11-20-2023, 04:56 PM   #504
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Yeah, they should definitely bring a wagon here so about 5 people would buy it.
Just so it's clear for everyone, the only purpose of sharing the Levorg picture was to show what the WRX's fenders should have looked like. No mention of please bring wagon anywhere.

There it is, plain as day, the car could have looked great instead of literally intolerable.

At this point Subaru could bring a manual WRX wagon with the plastic all corrected and there's no way I'd buy it.
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Old 11-20-2023, 07:05 PM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredzy View Post
Just no need or purpose whatsoever for the cladding on this body.

They should have done it just like the VA with the fender flare cutoff behind the front wheel, but made it an actual vent like everyone is doing these days.

Even if they did nothing and made it plain like revogu it would have been more than fine. The little bit extra paint/less plastic on the rear bumper goes a long way also.


Take my money now. 2.4T 6MT, of course.

Baby stroller in the back. Iím ready.
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Old 11-20-2023, 07:53 PM   #506
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Take my money now. 2.4T 6MT, of course.

Baby stroller in the back. Iím ready.
I'm with you, but for the right price I'd take the CVT and maybe even the 1.8t over any of Subarus current crossovers.
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Old 11-20-2023, 10:27 PM   #507
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Bloody hell that looks great. The design, the wheels, the paint color.



At what point are we just going to stop blaming Subaru of Japan, and put the blame where it belongs, on Subaru of America for not bringing this (or something very close to it) to the US? SoJ does still release some fun cars in their domestic market, as well as sometimes to other parts of Asia and Australia. But SoA is the one that only wants to cater to middle-aged soccer moms and ignore every other market segment.



If SBR wanted it here, it would be here.



Example: BRZ


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazdaz View Post
When they offered a wagon and sedan last time, the take-rate was rather high.

It was lower early on with the hatch. When it WAS a wagon, it wasn't "that much". The only thing I can think of is the sedan was selling more when they had to make the decision. But, also, hatch just doesn't equal wagon. Look at any other manufacturer that brings a wagon. How many years do they last before being dropped? Then try that on a lower selling vehicle like the WRX line.


I do think the Levorg would sell better than the BRZ(and 86) though.
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Old 11-21-2023, 12:07 AM   #508
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If SBR wanted it here, it would be here.



Example: BRZ





It was lower early on with the hatch. When it WAS a wagon, it wasn't "that much". The only thing I can think of is the sedan was selling more when they had to make the decision. But, also, hatch just doesn't equal wagon. Look at any other manufacturer that brings a wagon. How many years do they last before being dropped? Then try that on a lower selling vehicle like the WRX line.


I do think the Levorg would sell better than the BRZ(and 86) though.
Wagons donít do well here. Their P is too small.

But, I still think anyone with a sportwagon (Volvo V70R and Mercedes AMG included ) is super classy and has impeccable taste. Iíd like to join the club but the options are limited.

The new Volvo V60 Recharge PHEV by Polestar is crazy fast, but crazy money and not manual.
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Old 11-21-2023, 01:08 AM   #509
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hatches and wagons have nowhere near the same take rate in the US. No WRX hatch exists because SBR didn't make one. SBR also didn't make a Levorg with a stick in any market.

As Justy stated, if SBR wants to sell something in the US market, they will sell it. SOA didn't want the original BRZ or the original Crosstrek. SBR told them they were going to take them and like it.

SOA hasn't even been offered the Layback.
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Old 11-21-2023, 01:08 AM   #510
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hatches and wagons have nowhere near the same take rate in the US. No WRX hatch exists because SBR didn't make one. SBR also didn't make a Levorg with a stick in any market.

As Justy stated, if SBR wants to sell something in the US market, they will sell it. SOA didn't want the original BRZ or the original Crosstrek. SBR told them they were going to take them and like it.

SOA hasn't even been offered the Layback.
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Old 11-21-2023, 08:07 AM   #511
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I still think there's a decent chance that the Layback would outsell the Legacy in today's market. Especially once people get their hands on an AWD hybrid Camry.

Subaru has gone all in on their outdoorsy branding. Anything without ground clearance and a hatch (more specifically the Legacy) feels out of step with their image.

I could imagine them bringing back the Outback Sport monicker and slapping it on the Layback.

"For the occasional outdoorsman. Young. Single. Without the responsibility of children or a large enough parking spot at their city apartment for a full fledged Outback. The Outback Sport. Understated, yet capable. And with plenty of room for your one true companion: Rufus the dog."
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Old 11-21-2023, 09:28 AM   #512
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I wonder why wagons dont do so well here? Maybe its because when people think of practical, they immediately think of a pickup truck? Why would they want a car thats half fun/half practical when they can have a car thats full fun and a truck thats full practical?

I think this happened with convertibles too, I dont see nearly as many options now compared to what it used to be. Personally I dont like wagons or convertibles (theyre all ugly AF) and I would always choose the 2 door over the 4 door option if given the chance, Subaru didnt accidentally choose the coupe body for the 22B, they knew it just looked better.
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Old 11-21-2023, 09:59 AM   #513
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I think its because people want a vehicle that is tall, where the rider is above everyone else, and looks safe, where they think more mass equals safety for them. Same reason why sedans are a dying breed.
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Old 11-21-2023, 12:55 PM   #514
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Even from a body shop stand point, its a more expensive repair. Painting the whole fender/qtr, and then buying more plastic pieces that clip into the painted panel. Like adding an extra couple hours of paint time (Normally around 45-55/hr for paint).
Especially the wilderness package, which Idk how extra plastic makes it more "Wilderness" when off-road parts usually include skid plates, rock rails, metal bumpers, extra lighting, etc.
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Old 11-21-2023, 01:46 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Smoblikat View Post
I wonder why wagons dont do so well here? Maybe its because when people think of practical, they immediately think of a pickup truck? Why would they want a car thats half fun/half practical when they can have a car thats full fun and a truck thats full practical?

I think this happened with convertibles too, I dont see nearly as many options now compared to what it used to be. Personally I dont like wagons or convertibles (theyre all ugly AF) and I would always choose the 2 door over the 4 door option if given the chance, Subaru didnt accidentally choose the coupe body for the 22B, they knew it just looked better.
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I think its because people want a vehicle that is tall, where the rider is above everyone else, and looks safe, where they think more mass equals safety for them. Same reason why sedans are a dying breed.
These and other reasons.

I'm a "car" person, I try to buy the "smallest & lightest" vehicle that will suit my needs while fulfilling as many of my wants as possible (performance/handling/driver engagement). Wagons are/were the best blend of practicality and fun I've come across; I absolutely hate CUVs and I will continue to avoid/put off buying a truck as long as I can.

CUVs are generally easier to get in and out of than wagons, have a higher/upright seating position, offer more cargo capacity with minimal fuel economy losses (if at all) and are easier to put children in the back of due to the rear doors having a big square/rectangular opening, while having lower CAFE & NHTSA requirements vs. a wagon. For the "average" car buyer the advantages a wagon offers (better handling & performance) just don't matter, so the CUV is the better choice for them, and for the manufacturers, the CUV is MORE PROFITABLE; as a result, the wagon is all but gone from the US market.

There is a stigma about minivans as well, they are a better people and stuff movers than CUVs are, while being just as capable, but are less appealing. The Telluride is literally a restyled Carnival without the sliding doors; same vehicle underneath, but the Telluride sells way better, even though it's not as good at doing it's job as the Carnival is, the minivan is on borrowed time as well in the US market.

EV's may help bring the wagon back; aerodynamics (cd/drag coefficient) & parasitic losses (ur/rolling resistance) have a much larger impact on EV efficiency than they do on ICE efficiency; so a wagon with a similar footprint will have more range & be more efficient than an EV CUV would be (smaller frontal area, lower to the ground, narrower tires etc.); look at the Ioniq 5 cd of 0.28 & Ioniq 6 cd of 0.21; however the model Y is only 0.23 compared to the Model 3 at 0.22; but there are a lot of factors that lead to overall efficiency, the sedans that are sharing a platform with a CUV are generally more efficient from a mi/kWh standpoint when equipped with the same pack & motors as the CUVs.

Related/unrelated, I absolutely hate the "mpg-e" rating for EV's, it should be mi/kWh. I don't like mpg-e for HEVs or PHEVs either; mi/kWh rating for EV mode w/range and MPG for HEV mode should be the standard, not some ridiculous number that tries to estimate how often the end user will be in EV/HEV modes.
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Old 11-21-2023, 08:59 PM   #516
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You expect people to get EDUCATED about m/kWh prior to making their EV purchase? With all due respect, GET OUT.
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Old 11-21-2023, 09:14 PM   #517
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I dunno if minivans are in borrowed time. Getting into that life I learned about the community and Toyota canít produce enough Siennaís to meet demands. I was like 15th in a list at my local dealer since October of 22 and only had to wait 5 months because I was the only one that ordered an AWD. See stories of people waiting like over a year. Minivanís secret weapon is the sliding door. Wagons donít have trump card like that.
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Old 11-21-2023, 10:23 PM   #518
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You expect people to get EDUCATED about m/kWh prior to making their EV purchase? With all due respect, GET OUT.
Yeah point noted, my bad; I really have to stop giving the general public the benefit of the doubt, it's a personal charector flaw, I have no idea how to remedy it.

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Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
I dunno if minivans are in borrowed time. Getting into that life I learned about the community and Toyota canít produce enough Siennaís to meet demands. I was like 15th in a list at my local dealer since October of 22 and only had to wait 5 months because I was the only one that ordered an AWD. See stories of people waiting like over a year. Minivanís secret weapon is the sliding door. Wagons donít have trump card like that.
I literally said minivans are better than CUVs at moving people and stuff, that also means they are definitely better at moving people and stuff than wagons are. My argument for wagons, is also why wagons are going away before minivans; mainly, the wagon "trump card" doesn't matter to the majority of the buying public. Wagons are lighter, lower to the ground, handle better & generally have better vehicle dynamics, give more feedback & provide a better driving experience.

The public has chosen the CUV over the minivan and the wagon, Toyota may not make enough Siennas, but they certainly don't make enough Highlanders either; starting in about 2016 they sold just about twice as many Highlanders as they did Siennas, and since then Sienna sales have been on a steady decrease, while Highlander sales have been on a steady increase.

Covid/Pandemic times were screwy & are still screwy, and Toyota definitely prioritized Highlander production over the Sienna, but they've also sold every single Highlander they've built, and again, covid times are screwy but the actual sales numbers are:
2020 Sienna 43k Highlander 212k
2021 Sienna 15k Highlander 264k
2022 Sienna 7k Highlander 223k
2023 Sienna 48k Highlander 150k

The highlander is only one CUV in their lineup vs. their only minivan; they have 7 or 8 CUVs (depending on how you treat the Highlander vs. the Grand Highlander) with multiple trim levels and powertrain options that all outsell the Sienna by a significant quantity (except for the BZ4X, for obvious reasons).

Kia sells four times as many Tellurides as they do Carnivals/Sedonas and they are the same vehicle with a different body.

You waited 5 months on a list and got a Sienna, we waited 6 months on a list for a Highlander before throwing in the towel, getting our deposit back and buying a Kia Sorento PHEV I happened to find at a dealer out of state that had only stopped charging markup two days prior; the difference is that Toyota sold 7k Siennas in 2022 and you got one, where as they sold 223k Highlanders in 2022 and we didn't get one (those numbers are US market BTW).

I understand wanting a thing for whatever your personal reasons are, but that doesn't change the fact that the market, in this case, the average car buyer, doesn't want that thing nearly as much as you do, and that that thing will likely go away.

I tried to talk my wife into a Sienna, as she is fairly rational & pragmatic. Sienna is a better place to be than the highlander, had a lower MSRP, is better at moving people and stuff than a highlander, while being just as fuel efficient, but she didn't want a minivan, because it was a minivan. Contrast that with the Venza, which is also a much nicer place to be than the Highlander, just as fuel efficient, has better styling, but is only a two-row where the Highlander is a 3-row, and if she was going to drive something that big it should be a 3-row, otherwise the Rav4 2-row was a better option than the Venza because it had more room for stuff than the Venza, which gave up function for form.

Wagons are all but gone and Minivans are definitively on borrowed time. Whether that is mainly the fault of the consumer or manufacturer is a fruitless debate, both are to blame, but "the market" has spoken.
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Old 11-21-2023, 10:50 PM   #519
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lol dude, I know minivans are not as popular, I just question that itís on borrowed time. The handling of wagons is an emotional choice and not a trump card on the level of the sliding door that will still be a practicality choice for those that continue to buy it over SUVs. As long as people still have kids, I think minivans have a place in the market. Just my opinion.
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Old 11-21-2023, 11:43 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
You expect people to get EDUCATED about m/kWh prior to making their EV purchase? With all due respect, GET OUT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Yeah point noted, my bad; I really have to stop giving the general public the benefit of the doubt, it's a personal charector flaw, I have no idea how to remedy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
lol dude, I know minivans are not as popular, I just question that itís on borrowed time. The handling of wagons is an emotional choice and not a trump card on the level of the sliding door that will still be a practicality choice for those that continue to buy it over SUVs. As long as people still have kids, I think minivans have a place in the market. Just my opinion.
See quoted text, and you know, the rest of what has been said in this thread, and sales numbers, or don't, your choice.
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Old 11-22-2023, 08:21 AM   #521
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The only one that needs an education is you. Minivan sales follow birth rates which have been falling for like 30 years. Donít take my word for it, this is the word of industry analytics. But as I said, people will always have babies so theyíll still exist. Yes, sales have dropped overall in the industry (although they've started making a comeback the last 2 years) and many companies have axed the minivans they had, but this just means a bigger share for the 3-4 companies that still offer them. This means itís still good business because profits are high on them and you can boast all you want about Highlander sales figures, but the Highlander still has like 39 other competitors to deal with. Trends donít always continue, thatís why theyíre called trends, things will shift, not everyone will want an C/SUV forever. So yeah, your choice, act like a horse with blinders when you look at sale figures without acknowledging any context, whatever you want I could care less. This will be my last word on this topic.

Last edited by mcarb002; 11-22-2023 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 11-22-2023, 10:13 AM   #522
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See quoted text, and you know, the rest of what has been said in this thread, and sales numbers, or don't, your choice.
I didn't read everything, way too much, but yeah minivans aren't going anywhere dawg
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Old 11-25-2023, 05:04 PM   #523
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I know a guy who waited months to buy a Sienna then paid $15k over sticker for it. We really do live in some financially illiterate times.
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Old 11-25-2023, 06:38 PM   #524
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We have a 2011 Sienna awd, with snow tires it is a beast. Awesome ski trip vehicle. Iím actually in the process of replacing front lower control arms and ball joints, struts and installing new brake rotors/pads. Ready for another winter.


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Old 11-25-2023, 07:07 PM   #525
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Currently working through the SUV vs minivan debate. Agree with you guys, those sliding doors are just too hard to argue against, especially with small children on board. Wagons just don't have enough storage room, as much as I want another one (had a 2013 wrx wagon)
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