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Old 11-17-2023, 08:53 AM   #4226
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Model 3 is a moderate mid tier vehicle. It's not luxury, hard stop. If it had ICE guts to it, t would probably slot somewhere alongside a VW top trim Jetta or acura equivalent. I know there will be those who disagree, and that's fine, but Tesla is NOT a luxury brand. People often equate price to luxury which is a fallacy. A base model 3 to low mid trim 3 series BMW is not luxury either.

I'd also argue they are not a "true" premium brand. Yes, I will admit once again they have the best batteries and motors currently available to the EV market. But that's about where it starts and stops.

*Enter stage right JM and others*
Luxury or no luxury who cares.. It outsells everything luxury or not luxury in it's segment. The point is that the interior has been improved according to US and European reviewers and that is it, I rest my case.
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Old 11-17-2023, 12:58 PM   #4227
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Luxury or no luxury who cares.. It outsells everything luxury or not luxury in it's segment. The point is that the interior has been improved according to US and European reviewers and that is it, I rest my case.
I didnít know we were in court, counselor
Your objection has been overruled.
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Old 11-17-2023, 04:43 PM   #4228
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Luxury or no luxury who cares.. It outsells everything luxury or not luxury in it's segment. The point is that the interior has been improved according to US and European reviewers and that is it, I rest my case.
I thought the interior was already ďpremiumĒ so why did it need improvement ? Guess it wasnít really premium. Also, nice strawman attempt.
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Old 11-17-2023, 07:49 PM   #4229
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I thought the interior was already "premium" so why did it need improvement ? Guess it wasn't really premium. Also, nice strawman attempt.
Because it is 5 years old and everything can be improved even if it is one of the best selling cars in the world

Last edited by juanmedina; 11-18-2023 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 11-19-2023, 10:11 PM   #4230
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Math is math the savings are there when you compare apples to apples; the math is undeniable.



https://electrek.co/2023/11/14/ev-sa...u-are-hearing/
when your coming from almost nothing its ez to show large gains. I used to have a joke about my business that I had a $10 Million better profit than Victoria's Secret stores. Truth was they lost $10 million that year but none knew or compered than.
SO HOW IS YOUR RESALE VALUE TODAY? I consider this a big factor in overall cost to run a car. Many are dropping in half value in one year ! Don't look at KBB but Black book values based on sales.
You really need to change the heading of this column as sounds provocative and ghetto "Tesla Catch All Thread. Hate us cause you ainít us"
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Old 11-19-2023, 10:52 PM   #4231
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Discounted in-stock inventory is back near me. There are multiple standard range cars in stock nearby for just over $37k and dual motors for around 44k. Maryland brought back the state rebate so it's around 30k for a standard range after fees, taxes and rebates. No wonder resale is taking a nose dive. It's too bad bmw won't build too many manual supras.

Last edited by rexster; 11-20-2023 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 11-20-2023, 08:28 AM   #4232
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when your coming from almost nothing its ez to show large gains. I used to have a joke about my business that I had a $10 Million better profit than Victoria's Secret stores. Truth was they lost $10 million that year but none knew or compered than.
SO HOW IS YOUR RESALE VALUE TODAY? I consider this a big factor in overall cost to run a car. Many are dropping in half value in one year ! Don't look at KBB but Black book values based on sales.
You really need to change the heading of this column as sounds provocative and ghetto "Tesla Catch All Thread. Hate us cause you ainít us"
Starting from nothing with a technology that is threatening the existence of Oil companies and that changes how cars have been run for a century is far from easy. I think we are way past arguing if EV's will be the future; it is pointless.

Resale value is horrible of course. Tesla lowered their prices by huge amounts and artificially hurt the resale value. But this doesn't not only apply to Tesla, Audi, Mercedes, Kia and Ford are offering huge discounts to try to match Tesla's pricing. But again this is just temporary; during Covid EV's had almost no depreciation. I would think that current buyers at this crazy low prices will see almost no depreciation specially because we are at the peak of the interest rates. As soon as the interest rates next year auto companies will start to increase their prices.
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Old 11-20-2023, 05:28 PM   #4233
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Starting from nothing with a technology that is threatening the existence of Oil companies and that changes how cars have been run for a century is far from easy. I think we are way past arguing if EV's will be the future; it is pointless.

Resale value is horrible of course. Tesla lowered their prices by huge amounts and artificially hurt the resale value. But this doesn't not only apply to Tesla, Audi, Mercedes, Kia and Ford are offering huge discounts to try to match Tesla's pricing. But again this is just temporary; during Covid EV's had almost no depreciation. I would think that current buyers at this crazy low prices will see almost no depreciation specially because we are at the peak of the interest rates. As soon as the interest rates next year auto companies will start to increase their prices.
That wonít matter. Many vehicles have increased 20-33% in price over the last 5-6 years. That is not sustainable because peoples wages arenít keeping up with the cost increases. Lenders are already hitting record denies on loan applications. Repos are up too. Credit card debt is out of control as well. Only a matter of time until the bubble bursts.

Oil companies arenít going anywhere either. Thatís just wishful thinking for the cult youíre in. Iíve been using an EV for a decade and I donít talk that bs or have this cult bs either

EVís will continue to depreciate like mad. Anyone wants one or has interest in one should buy used and let someone else take the hit.
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Old 11-21-2023, 09:19 PM   #4234
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That won't matter. Many vehicles have increased 20-33% in price over the last 5-6 years. That is not sustainable because peoples wages aren't keeping up with the cost increases. Lenders are already hitting record denies on loan applications. Repos are up too. Credit card debt is out of control as well. Only a matter of time until the bubble bursts.

Oil companies aren't going anywhere either. That's just wishful thinking for the cult you're in. I've been using an EV for a decade and I don't talk that bs or have this cult bs either

EV's will continue to depreciate like mad. Anyone wants one or has interest in one should buy used and let someone else take the hit.
Oil companies will exist but when 90% of their output is used for transportation they would obviously be nothing like what they are today. Also, I would think ICE cars would depreciate way worse. Why would someone buy an obsolete piece of machinery that will eventually get banned in many cities. And I retierate EV's sold right now will have very little depreciation IMO.

Interest rates absolutely matter. How can someone say that they don't matter when you make a large purchase such a home or a car? That makes no sense. As far as recession I also think that it might happen next and it will be a rough year regardless of the type of vehicle but that is a normal part of the economic cycle and it will pass. New EV prices are coming down hard and they actually have much more room to come down in price than ICE cars as the technology improves.
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Old 12-01-2023, 05:16 PM   #4235
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Cyber Truck prototype review by Jason Camisa/Hagerty.


Honestly, there is a lot to like about the Cybertruck, it's essentially a "Next generation Tesla". The propulsion system, and fully 48v accessory architecture, are industry leading; too bad they're in a Tesla vehicle though.

The biggies:
800V propulsion system (instead of 400v)
48v architecture for accessory & EPS (instead of 12v)

Other notable items:
Increase vertical integration over other models (Tesla makes "everything" in house)
Next-gen battery 4680 cells
-more energy dense/lighter
-ability to push more power with better thermal stability
-made in-house
The use of PMM up front & Induction motor(s) at the rear
-PMM are more efficient than induction motors (up to 97% vs. up to 93%) but use rare earth metals so are more expensive to produce
-induction motors can be engaged/disengaged without a clutch, so during steady state cruising & normal acceleration, the PMM will do as much work as possible, induction motors can disengage when not needed
-All Wheel Steering

I need to see the specs before I form an opinion:
Custom/Tesla specific alloy for the brushed stainless panels that were touted as "bullet proof" the important thing is impact resistance, which they seem to hold up to. Also I just like brushed stainless panels.
Gorilla Glass windows
Exoskeleton + aluminum chassis results in a vehicle "stiffer than a 911"
steer-by-wire (SBW) - it's a redundant system I'd have to experience it before I passed judgement on it, TBW is pretty awesome honestly, haven't experienced BBW yet.

Things I don't like:
The usual Tesla-stuff (interior/"tablet" malarky, exterior styling, unknown build quality, etc.)
10 (or 12?) have been delivered so far
"250mi to 500mi of range & 40k-70k price range" is now 250mi to 340mi of range & 70k-100k price range
~7,000lb curb weight
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Old 12-01-2023, 10:47 PM   #4236
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Cyber Truck prototype review by Jason Camisa/Hagerty.



Honestly, there is a lot to like about the Cybertruck, it's essentially a "Next generation Tesla". The propulsion system, and fully 48v accessory architecture, are industry leading; too bad they're in a Tesla vehicle though.

The biggies:
800V propulsion system (instead of 400v)
48v architecture for accessory & EPS (instead of 12v)

Other notable items:
Increase vertical integration over other models (Tesla makes "everything" in house)
Next-gen battery 4680 cells
-more energy dense/lighter
-ability to push more power with better thermal stability
-made in-house
The use of PMM up front & Induction motor(s) at the rear
-PMM are more efficient than induction motors (up to 97% vs. up to 93%) but use rare earth metals so are more expensive to produce
-induction motors can be engaged/disengaged without a clutch, so during steady state cruising & normal acceleration, the PMM will do as much work as possible, induction motors can disengage when not needed
-All Wheel Steering

I need to see the specs before I form an opinion:
Custom/Tesla specific alloy for the brushed stainless panels that were touted as "bullet proof" the important thing is impact resistance, which they seem to hold up to. Also I just like brushed stainless panels.
Gorilla Glass windows
Exoskeleton + aluminum chassis results in a vehicle "stiffer than a 911"
steer-by-wire (SBW) - it's a redundant system I'd have to experience it before I passed judgement on it, TBW is pretty awesome honestly, haven't experienced BBW yet.

Things I don't like:
The usual Tesla-stuff (interior/"tablet" malarky, exterior styling, unknown build quality, etc.)
10 (or 12?) have been delivered so far
"250mi to 500mi of range & 40k-70k price range" is now 250mi to 340mi of range & 70k-100k price range
~7,000lb curb weight
Lots of people are disappointed about the pricing but it is competitive with the other EV offerings. IMO Tesla is taking advantage of the current backlog and selling the trucks at lower loss while they ramp up. When they get into volume production and start to run out of backlog they will lower their prices.
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Old 12-02-2023, 08:28 AM   #4237
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man, and we thought the new wrx was uggly
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Old 12-02-2023, 09:04 AM   #4238
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This thing could tow the space shuttle and be faster than the speed of sound, it still looks worse than a fregging Pontiac Aztec. Itís disgusting.
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Old 12-02-2023, 02:17 PM   #4239
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This thing could tow the space shuttle and be faster than the speed of sound, it still looks worse than a fregging Pontiac Aztec. Itís disgusting.
Sounds great, I'll take two.
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Old 12-02-2023, 11:52 PM   #4240
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This thing could tow the space shuttle and be faster than the speed of sound, it still looks worse than a fregging Pontiac Aztec. Itís disgusting.
I love the hate . Like their hate is going to make any difference

https://twitter.com/carwowuk/status/1731130887322865948
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Old 12-03-2023, 05:17 AM   #4241
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~7,000lb curb weight
Yup and eighty grand large too. Itís a status symbol dude, and nothing more. People that really go off-road take resto Wrangler projects, SXSís, and ATVís/MX bikes. You donít take a 80k new shiny truck.

Yup it has all this towing capability that if you actually used it for that, your range would go to absolute shat. Anyone that really tows heavy loads regularly, is going to buy a Diesel, period. I do bet these will be all the rage in the drive thru lines at Starbucks.
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Old 12-03-2023, 11:09 AM   #4242
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I love the hate . Like their hate is going to make any difference

https://twitter.com/carwowuk/status/1731130887322865948
So youíre going to seriously stand here like this is a good looking vehicle? Give me an effing break puhhhhleaseÖWhat hate ? I own a Tesla lol Iím just not a kool aid drinking cult member like yourself. Iím calling it like I see it, the numbers are amazing but the vehicle looks horrific. The fact that you donít admit that just shows how biased you are, and donít tell me about looks are subjective crap like the way this truck looks is an objective travesty at this point.
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Old 12-03-2023, 11:59 AM   #4243
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It's ugly, but I'm super excited to see these driving around. Just a sea of gray, white and black EVs, CUVs, SUVs, sedans, etc.
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Old 12-03-2023, 12:59 PM   #4244
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So youíre going to seriously stand here like this is a good looking vehicle? Give me an effing break puhhhhleaseÖWhat hate ? I own a Tesla lol Iím just not a kool aid drinking cult member like yourself. Iím calling it like I see it, the numbers are amazing but the vehicle looks horrific. The fact that you donít admit that just shows how biased you are, and donít tell me about looks are subjective crap like the way this truck looks is an objective travesty at this point.
2 million reservations. I have friends who have never considered buying a Tesla before with a reservation. You don't like it, don't buy it. Makes the line shorter for the rest of us (only a few more years).

It's as beautiful as an Urban Assault Vehicle should be.
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Old 12-04-2023, 10:06 AM   #4245
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So you're going to seriously stand here like this is a good looking vehicle? Give me an effing break puhhhhlease***8230;What hate ? I own a Tesla lol I'm just not a kool aid drinking cult member like yourself. I'm calling it like I see it, the numbers are amazing but the vehicle looks horrific. The fact that you don't admit that just shows how biased you are, and don't tell me about looks are subjective crap like the way this truck looks is an objective travesty at this point.
You have to look at this thread again. I have said many times before that the Cybertruck looks UGLY and that is UGLY. And it doesn't matter if is UGLY; looks are subjective and even if I think that is UGLY I think it will sell well.

It might look worse than a Pontiac Aztec but it will not be a flop.
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Old 12-04-2023, 01:54 PM   #4246
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2 million reservations. I have friends who have never considered buying a Tesla before with a reservation. You don't like it, don't buy it. Makes the line shorter for the rest of us (only a few more years).

It's as beautiful as an Urban Assault Vehicle should be.

I don't care if there's 10 million reservations including from your baby momma, not only is this point a logical fallacy but you must also have to be snorting the kool aid if you think actual orders will come close to those reservation figures. Specially now that papa Elon also fudged up the promised pricing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
You have to look at this thread again. I have said many times before that the Cybertruck looks UGLY and that is UGLY. And it doesn't matter if is UGLY; looks are subjective and even if I think that is UGLY I think it will sell well.

It might look worse than a Pontiac Aztec but it will not be a flop.

so then why are you getting your panties in a bunch over something you also agree with? You sure about it selling well? you've seen the pricing right? Do you know the status of our world and economy? What makes you think 80K to get power to all 4 wheels is competitive in the truck market? Face it, it's a niche truck. Just like the X and S are niche cars, heck even more than them.. Tesla's bread and butter are the 3/Y. And this truck will fall right were the likes of Lucid falls in the EV industry, just very niche luxury items in an economy that's not the best environment for these type of commodities.
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Old 12-04-2023, 02:52 PM   #4247
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I don't care if there's 10 million reservations including from your baby momma, not only is this point a logical fallacy but you must also have to be snorting the kool aid if you think actual orders will come close to those reservation figures. Specially now that papa Elon also fudged up the promised pricing.
Could copy and paste this back in 2018 or in 2012 and nothing would change. Never learn.

They will sell every one they can make at this pricing, and then the pricing will be lower, and we can cycle back on this thread to complaining about Elon's "cut throat capitalism" because he's rapidly cutting prices.

Peanut gallery never learns.
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Old 12-04-2023, 07:36 PM   #4248
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Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
I don't care if there's 10 million reservations including from your baby momma, not only is this point a logical fallacy but you must also have to be snorting the kool aid if you think actual orders will come close to those reservation figures. Specially now that papa Elon also fudged up the promised pricing.





so then why are you getting your panties in a bunch over something you also agree with? You sure about it selling well? you've seen the pricing right? Do you know the status of our world and economy? What makes you think 80K to get power to all 4 wheels is competitive in the truck market? Face it, it's a niche truck. Just like the X and S are niche cars, heck even more than them.. Tesla's bread and butter are the 3/Y. And this truck will fall right were the likes of Lucid falls in the EV industry, just very niche luxury items in an economy that's not the best environment for these type of commodities.
The combined installed Model S/X capacity 100,000 and the Cybertruck initial capacity is 250,000. The average price of sale of a new pick up truck is $59,000 with the RWD drive Cybertruck price set $60,000-7,500 at $52,500 OTD and the AWD at $72,500 after the incentive not far from the average selling price. I don't need to face anything time will show that I am correct. Initial pricing will also come down over time and I guarantee that the Cybertruck will outsell the Rivian R1T and the lighting really quickly.
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Old 12-04-2023, 09:21 PM   #4249
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This whole time I thought the CT was taking over the pick up market but now it will just outsell one trim from FordÖ. Hilarious
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Old 12-05-2023, 02:13 PM   #4250
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Originally Posted by mcarb002 View Post
I don't care if there's 10 million reservations including from your baby momma, not only is this point a logical fallacy but you must also have to be snorting the kool aid if you think actual orders will come close to those reservation figures. Specially now that papa Elon also fudged up the promised pricing.





so then why are you getting your panties in a bunch over something you also agree with? You sure about it selling well? you've seen the pricing right? Do you know the status of our world and economy? What makes you think 80K to get power to all 4 wheels is competitive in the truck market? Face it, it's a niche truck. Just like the X and S are niche cars, heck even more than them.. Tesla's bread and butter are the 3/Y. And this truck will fall right were the likes of Lucid falls in the EV industry, just very niche luxury items in an economy that's not the best environment for these type of commodities.
While I agree with most of what you said, $80k trucks are pretty damn common. I think an f150 platinum is in the 80ís and I see a ton of those rolling around (well optioned lariat trim is low to mid $70ís and those are everywhere).

I see this being a 2nd or 3rd car novelty for those with cash to spend. I think very few will have it for their primary / only vehicle.

While I think the cyber truck is stupid, I am excited/ eager to see them rolling around in person. I think itís cool and incredibly dumb all at the same time.

I just hope manufacturers donít feel they need to match the acceleration/ speed of this truck. Heíll, Iím happy with how quick my 3.5 eco boost is. Find a way to drive down cost will increasing range and have acceleration be equal to an ice truck and Iíd be sold.

If I want to go fast, Iíll get a performance car. Our roads get tore up in the winter (potholes, etc) and Iím just picturing all the tards going WOT and ripping the **** out of our roads.
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