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Old 09-21-2020, 02:16 PM   #626
godfather2112
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It***8217;s going to be lack luster. Pass
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:18 PM   #627
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Itís going to be lack luster. Pass
Being lackluster exceeds expectations according to Toyota.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:33 PM   #628
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Being lackluster exceeds expectations according to Toyota.
I'm not expecting much, so lackluster might exceed my expectations. If they manage to properly tune the engine in the first model year consider my expectations exceeded.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:48 PM   #629
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It needs a good winder of an engine, not a slightly larger but still crappy engine. That stated, I'll hold off final judgement until/if I drive one. If I'm getting something this useless, the ND2 Miata is hard to ignore. If I absolutely want 2+2 then a used Mustang GT is hard to ignore.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:49 PM   #630
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I'm not expecting much, so lackluster might exceed my expectations. If they manage to properly tune the engine in the first model year consider my expectations exceeded.
Exactly. The tuning was subpar at best. And it wasn***8217;t just the annoying torque dip, with my BRZ, when it was even moderately hot and humid out the ECU would pull timing and the car felt so sluggish. This was a 13 model year so not sure if this was addressed in subsequent years, but I remember Savagegeese coving this issue with his own FR-S.

Between this and the gobs of rev hang Subaru added to the 15+ WRX and it was clear whomever does the tuning needs help.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:20 AM   #631
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Exactly. The tuning was subpar at best. And it wasnít just the annoying torque dip, with my BRZ, when it was even moderately hot and humid out the ECU would pull timing and the car felt so sluggish. This was a 13 model year so not sure if this was addressed in subsequent years, but I remember Savagegeese coving this issue with his own FR-S.

Between this and the gobs of rev hang Subaru added to the 15+ WRX and it was clear whomever does the tuning needs help.
Not to mention the S209 self destructing on 91 octane. I donít know if itís **** tuning or a garbage ECU but new Subarus have had a lot of tuning issues that you donít see from brands like Toyota and Honda.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:45 AM   #632
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UELH make it sound good tho. Try that.
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Old 09-22-2020, 06:36 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by thill View Post
Exactly. The tuning was subpar at best. And it wasnít just the annoying torque dip, with my BRZ, when it was even moderately hot and humid out the ECU would pull timing and the car felt so sluggish. This was a 13 model year so not sure if this was addressed in subsequent years, but I remember Savagegeese coving this issue with his own FR-S.

Between this and the gobs of rev hang Subaru added to the 15+ WRX and it was clear whomever does the tuning needs help.
Can confirm the sluggish nature after heating up. I drove mine from southern California eastward to Phoenix and it was NOT happy driving through the desert.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:00 PM   #634
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Being lackluster exceeds expectations according to Toyota.


I suppose if the 2.4L has no 5k dip, then it could be what BRZ folks wanted anyway. They backed up the disappointing car like their moms.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:41 PM   #635
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This is pretty much the same opinion I've had since the car was new; but if the curb weight is kept similar, and the torque dip is eliminated so it actually continuously builds power as it builds revs, ~220hp could still be a ton of fun for this car.

I do agree with the articles assertion that it won't be enough sales-wise and this generation will probably die on the vine though.
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Old 09-24-2020, 06:09 PM   #636
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This is pretty much the same opinion I've had since the car was new; but if the curb weight is kept similar, and the torque dip is eliminated so it actually continuously builds power as it builds revs, ~220hp could still be a ton of fun for this car.

I don't know. A boxer with no boost, well as it gets high revs it sounds like it's going to tear itself apart. Even a small snail would have been outstanding. A friend was saying it needs a Honda K motor in it then it would be fun. But that's not going to happen.
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:27 PM   #637
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I don't know. A boxer with no boost, well as it gets high revs it sounds like it's going to tear itself apart. Even a small snail would have been outstanding. A friend was saying it needs a Honda K motor in it then it would be fun. But that's not going to happen.
I'm not saying it's better than a turbo, but it could be enough to be fun, and with summer tires essentially solves most of the problems with the car.

It also gets us into the sort of power level where you have something relatively special when tuned; if you can still get 25-30hp with boltons and tune you're sitting close to 250hp. I understand from a early ft86club forum thread where a dude weighed his teardown I read years ago that the weight savings from an aftermarket exhaust system, lightweight wheels, and racing seats/rear seat delete adds up to ~200lb. So a moderately massaged NA tune car could be somewhere in the neighborhood of ~250hp/~2600lb, which is a outstanding place to be in a chassis this good. Obviously, that's not as good as a turbo model which could gain 70+hp off those mods; but it puts the car firmly where I like it, as a good affordable sporty car and an even better platform for tuning.
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:14 PM   #638
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I'm not saying it's better than a turbo, but it could be enough to be fun, and with summer tires essentially solves most of the problems with the car.

It also gets us into the sort of power level where you have something relatively special when tuned; if you can still get 25-30hp with boltons and tune you're sitting close to 250hp. I understand from a early ft86club forum thread where a dude weighed his teardown I read years ago that the weight savings from an aftermarket exhaust system, lightweight wheels, and racing seats/rear seat delete adds up to ~200lb. So a moderately massaged NA tune car could be somewhere in the neighborhood of ~250hp/~2600lb, which is a outstanding place to be in a chassis this good. Obviously, that's not as good as a turbo model which could gain 70+hp off those mods; but it puts the car firmly where I like it, as a good affordable sporty car and an even better platform for tuning.
To start you won't get another 25 to 30 HP with a tune and exhaust on pump gas. Another item, aftermarket seats are usally a pita and the point were a DD becomes just a toy.

Another point is your talking about 5 k in parts. Light wheels $1.5k, seats $1.5k, exhaust $800, tune $600, tires $600.

Lots of compromises and cost for what Subaru should have done to start.

Last edited by wrxsubaru; 09-27-2020 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:09 PM   #639
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To start you won't get another 25 to 30 HP with a tune and exhaust on pump gas. Another item, aftermarket seats are usally a pita and the point were a DD becomes just a toy.

Another point is your talking about 5 k in parts. Light wheels $1.5k, seats $1.5k, exhaust $800, tune $600, tires $600.

Lots of compromises and cost for what Subaru should have done to start.
Seems you just stated possible reasons Subaru didn't do it from the start.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:13 PM   #640
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Lol I thought the same thing.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:38 PM   #641
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Nobody complained that the 240hp/236 lb-ft e36 M3 was slow or crappy and even the more track focused CSL Lightweight weighed 2950 pounds. A well tuned 2.4 DIT BRZ with a nice broad torque curve would be a compelling enthusiast offering.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:49 PM   #642
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What was the price of the E36 M3?
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:35 PM   #643
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What was the price of the E36 M3?
About $35k iirc.
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:37 PM   #644
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About $35k iirc.
Well there's your answer on your dream BRZ.
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:38 PM   #645
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Well there's your answer on your dream BRZ.
Uh... have you checked how much a brz costs?
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:53 PM   #646
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Uh... have you checked how much a brz costs?
I owned one.
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Old 09-27-2020, 10:58 PM   #647
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Seems you just stated possible reasons Subaru didn't do it from the start.
Do what, all the above? I agree light weight route can pretty expensive for OEM. Its generally not the route to go. I think this car is just the 2.4t and tires away from being really good.

How much more do you think it would cost for Subaru to use a 2.4t instead of a new 2.4 NA? I would bet development cost of this higher output 2.4 NA far exceeds would be equipment cost of front mount setup.
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Old 09-28-2020, 12:07 AM   #648
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Nobody complained that the 240hp/236 lb-ft e36 M3 was slow or crappy and even the more track focused CSL Lightweight weighed 2950 pounds. A well tuned 2.4 DIT BRZ with a nice broad torque curve would be a compelling enthusiast offering.
I'm not seeing how that is relevant in the least. That was 25 years ago. Cars were all much slower. There wasn't much to complain about (sans it not getting the S52).

An E36 M3 wasn't getting outrun by minivans.

No one complained at 14 second Lamborghinis or 15 second "muscle cars" either.

That doesn't mean people should be satisfied with the same today.

But on the other hand, I will agree to some extent: If whatever lump Subaru puts into the car feels even half as nice as that straight-six, there will be a lot less complaints. No chance of that though. Sporting character has much to do with it. And Subaru doesn't make N/A motors that have any.

Last edited by SoapBox; 09-28-2020 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 09-28-2020, 03:14 AM   #649
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1995 M3 coupe (base price: $36,620)

5-speed manual

Wheelbase: 106.3 in
Length: 174.9 in
Width: 67.3 in
Height: 52.6 in
Curb weight: 3180 lb

Power: 240 hp @ 6000 rpm
Torque: 225 lb-ft @ 4250 rpm
13.25 PWR

Zero to 60 mph: 5.6 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.9 sec
Rolling start, 5Ė60 mph: 6.1 sec
1/4 mile: 14.3 sec @ 98 mph
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g
Quote:
2020 Toyota 86 GT (base price: $31,145)

6-speed manual

Wheelbase: 101.2 in
Length: 166.7 in
Width: 69.9 in
Height: 52.0 in
Curb weight: 2845 lb

Power: 205 hp @ 7000 rpm
Torque: 156 lb-ft @ 6400 rpm
PWR: 13.8

Zero to 60 mph: 6.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 16.7 sec
Rolling start, 5Ė60 mph: 7.4 sec
1/4 mile: 14.8 sec @ 94 mph
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g
Quote:
2018 Toyota Camry V6

8AT

Curb weight: 3665 lb

Power: 301 hp @ 6600 rpm
Torque: 267 lb-ft @ 4700 rpm
PWR: 12.1

Zero to 60 mph: 5.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.4 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.2 sec
Standing ľ-mile: 14.4 sec @ 100 mph
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:45 AM   #650
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Good collection of data. That rolling start is where it hurts in real world.
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