Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday November 28, 2020
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-18-2020, 02:37 PM   #401
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
This article seems to disagree with you a bit. Your definition of "run circles around" doesn't take much I guess.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/attack...-ar176584.html
Just for some comparisons from Car and Driver's VIR times:

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'08 S2000 CR 3:15.0
'15 WRX 3:15.5
'15 Mustang EcoBoost 3:15.6
'19 Miata RF Club 3:17.2
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

I think it really comes down to tires and the track. It would be interesting to see what the lighter ST Miata Club would do with PS4S tires like the BRZ tS. The Miata is down 24 hp, but nearly 500 lbs lighter.

Weight-to-Power:
BRZ tS: ~13.7 lbs/hp
Miata Club: ~12.9 lbs/hp
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 01-18-2020, 05:26 PM   #402
neg_matnik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 132389
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SF Bay Area
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Subaru should make a 2.0 version of their H6 motor for this car. tax compliance with a more interesting experience.
Add 2 cylinders to FB16 and we could get a 2.4L H6 that would easily out rev FA20 (assuming FB16 uses the same 129.3mm rods with a 82 mm H6 crank).
neg_matnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 05:35 PM   #403
JP Chestnut
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 504432
Join Date: Jul 2019
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Just for some comparisons from Car and Driver's VIR times:

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'08 S2000 CR 3:15.0
'15 WRX 3:15.5
'15 Mustang EcoBoost 3:15.6
'19 Miata RF Club 3:17.2
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

I think it really comes down to tires and the track. It would be interesting to see what the lighter ST Miata Club would do with PS4S tires like the BRZ tS. The Miata is down 24 hp, but nearly 500 lbs lighter.

Weight-to-Power:
BRZ tS: ~13.7 lbs/hp
Miata Club: ~12.9 lbs/hp
The brz is pretty impressive for a car without a ton of power using parts bin suspension parts pulled from an econo car line.

I think a top line brz with a near sti or wrx engine makes a lot of sense. The parts are there already developed. They just need to fit them to a different transmission. The ts version already has brembos, better than an sti Sachs dampers, and really nice seats. Itís a really compelling car to me.
JP Chestnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 05:50 PM   #404
jimmi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172959
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Franklin, TN
Vehicle:
'16 Ford GT350, '08
EvoX GSR,01 EclipseGT SDS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Add 2 cylinders to FB16 and we could get a 2.4L H6 that would easily out rev FA20 (assuming FB16 uses the same 129.3mm rods with a 82 mm H6 crank).
A 6 cylinder might ruin the handling because of wt distribution, size and turning radius.
jimmi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 05:52 PM   #405
jimmi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172959
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Franklin, TN
Vehicle:
'16 Ford GT350, '08
EvoX GSR,01 EclipseGT SDS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Just for some comparisons from Car and Driver's VIR times:

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'08 S2000 CR 3:15.0
'15 WRX 3:15.5
'15 Mustang EcoBoost 3:15.6
'19 Miata RF Club 3:17.2
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

I think it really comes down to tires and the track. It would be interesting to see what the lighter ST Miata Club would do with PS4S tires like the BRZ tS. The Miata is down 24 hp, but nearly 500 lbs lighter.

Weight-to-Power:
BRZ tS: ~13.7 lbs/hp
Miata Club: ~12.9 lbs/hp
Back to our discussion with the BRZ vs the Mustang EB. If it is already capable of being faster, why would it be less so with more power?
jimmi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 06:04 PM   #406
Brahmzy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3293
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: CO
Vehicle:
'20 Ascent
'15 XTerra P4X

Default

So Subaru spent a lot of time engineering the chassis / body of the current BRZ to be extremely low. They moved a ton of parts around to drop the engine lower, strut tops lower, hood lower, driver***8217;s seat lower, dash lower, etc. all of which makes it what it is - an epic handler. They also had to make a ton of engineering choices to move the engine as far back as they did.
With Toyota building all of this, this time, are we even going to have that same level of rigor to get things as low, and weight dist as rear biased as possible? Subaru worked to lower all sorts of stuff on the top of the engine so the hood could get even lower.
There***8217;s no way a TMIC would fit in there. If the engine does get an FA24DIT, it***8217;d have to be a FMIC.
Whatever they do, it***8217;ll be interesting to compare the handling dynamics of old vs new.
Brahmzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 06:11 PM   #407
jimmi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172959
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Franklin, TN
Vehicle:
'16 Ford GT350, '08
EvoX GSR,01 EclipseGT SDS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
So Subaru spent a lot of time engineering the chassis / body of the current BRZ to be extremely low. They moved a ton of parts around to drop the engine lower, strut tops lower, hood lower, driverís seat lower, dash lower, etc. all of which makes it what it is - an epic handler. They also had to make a ton of engineering choices to move the engine as far back as they did.
With Toyota building all of this, this time, are we even going to have that same level of rigor to get things as low, and weight dist as rear biased as possible? Subaru worked to lower all sorts of stuff on the top of the engine so the hood could get even lower.
Thereís no way a TMIC would fit in there. If the engine does get an FA24DIT, itíd have to be a FMIC.
Whatever they do, itíll be interesting to compare the handling dynamics of old vs new.
Wt of a FMIC in a 2900 lb car is probably negligible.
jimmi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 07:34 PM   #408
WRXnick16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 447898
Join Date: May 2016
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: W Sac, CA
Vehicle:
2016 WRX (traded)
2019 STI CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmi View Post
Back to our discussion with the BRZ vs the Mustang EB. If it is already capable of being faster, why would it be less so with more power?
Yes, the limited edition (500 units), top trim BRZ is faster than the base EcoBoost. The newer, more powerful EcoBoost with the Performance & Handling Packages should easily gain 5-10 seconds.

Compare the BRZ Performance Package vs BRZ tS. The BRZ PP already has the larger Brembo brakes & SACHS dampers. The tS is almost 6 seconds faster with just retuned dampers/springs, chassis bracing, & stickier tires compared to the BRZ PP.. with 0 power increase.

'18 BRZ tS 3:14.0
'17 BRZ Perf. Pack. 3:19.7

The EcoBoost PP/HP adds 20+ hp, a broader torque curve, 9.5" wheels w/ 30mm wider/stickier tires, track tuned MagneRide adjustable suspension, larger 4 piston brakes from the GT, torsen LSD, upgraded sway bars, and chassis bracing. That will almost certainly yield a 5+ second improvement putting it in the sub 3:10 range. You can see these types of mods & gains across many models.

'15 Mustang GT 3:05.2
'18 Mustang GT PP2 2:53.8 (11.4 seconds w/ similar treatment as the EcoBoost PP/HP +25 HP, better brakes, suspension, tires, etc.)

'15 WRX 3:15.5
'18 WRX PP 3:11.5 (4 seconds with just upgraded Brembo brakes, same power)

'15 STI 3:10.5
'18 STI Type RA 3:04.9 (5.6 seconds with a slight power bump & upgrades to brakes, suspension, etc.)

A turbo BRZ certainly has the ability to be faster. I hope Toyobaru delivers and we get a FA24DIT/D-4S BRZ track weapon that crushes the EcoBoost HP/PP for a reasonable price.. time will tell. Will they allow it to approach the level of the STI & Supra? A budget, manual trans Supra with a backseat would be great
WRXnick16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 10:31 PM   #409
Brahmzy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3293
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: CO
Vehicle:
'20 Ascent
'15 XTerra P4X

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
I hope Toyobaru delivers and we get a FA24DIT/D-4S BRZ track weapon that crushes the EcoBoost HP/PP for a reasonable price
Amen brutha!
Brahmzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 11:32 AM   #410
Brahmzy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3293
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: CO
Vehicle:
'20 Ascent
'15 XTerra P4X

Default

More rumors (from a site mod on the BRZ forums):

***8220;OK so here's some minor but actual insider information.

2nd Gen BRZ enters production in the Spring of 2021, so likely Summer 2021 for the first deliveries. 86 should be the same of course.

Next gen WRX enters production in the Fall of 2021. Next gen STI enters production in the Fall of 2022.

No other details yet. Subaru is good about keeping real details tightly controlled but the above was officially released today, internally anyways. At least it gives people an approx target for those deciding to buy now or wait to see the 2nd gen.***8221;
Brahmzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 01:35 PM   #411
samagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 26859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: undisputed COMBAT! champion
Vehicle:
of TXIC
I also like (oYo)!!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
The FA in the twins is just an economy motor with a ton of fuelling thrown at it. It NEEDS headers and a tune to run right, and wakes up even more with flex fuel.

But the torque is actually the big issue and why it needs a turbo. A flat 6 would be great too, but that would put more weight over the front and hurt the ballance. So the right way to go is just a turbo motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
/thread
I wish 48 volt mild hybrids would become a thing today.
samagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2020, 08:55 PM   #412
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Yeah, well, you know
Vehicle:
that 's, like, your
alternate facts, man.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
This article seems to disagree with you a bit. Your definition of "run circles around" doesn't take much I guess.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/attack...-ar176584.html
The heaviest ND with the weakest engine. Very compelling.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 02:18 AM   #413
JustyWRC
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 153088
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arlington, TN
Vehicle:
2005 Baja Turbo
06 Forester 18 Imp Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
.....Even a base model MX-5 will run circles around a loaded BRZ and feel better doing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
The heaviest ND with the weakest engine. Very compelling.
Then why'd you bring it up?
JustyWRC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 12:44 PM   #414
BeepBoop
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 496462
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: MN
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Then why'd you bring it up?
There's a difference between "loaded" and "special edition sport version" no?
BeepBoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 03:36 PM   #415
JustyWRC
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 153088
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arlington, TN
Vehicle:
2005 Baja Turbo
06 Forester 18 Imp Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBoop View Post
There's a difference between "loaded" and "special edition sport version" no?
Sure. But the time differences were soo minuscule, they are not even worth mentioning. And the performance package only adds a bit to it. The numbers for the lower trim would still not be that far off to have "circles" run around it. Now, I won't argue how it "feels" while doing it as that is subjective. I have driven a Miata before and I probably won't ever do it again......unless I lose a bunch of weight and can properly fit in it.
JustyWRC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 06:18 PM   #416
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Yeah, well, you know
Vehicle:
that 's, like, your
alternate facts, man.

Default

You apparently don't realize they completely revised the engine for 2018 (ND2). The ND1 was already faster in a straight line, but they added 26hp. It's also got a far better suspension than anything Subaru has ever built.

The ND2 MX-5 completely took over the C Street SCCA Solo class (street tires, shocks, one swaybar, and catbacks are the only allowed modifications). Only one BRZ bothered even showing up for C Street and that guy came in dead last. They aren't competitive (and never really were, against MX-5s).

Times in bold are the two best laps. Score is the sum of both.





But wait.. where are all the twins? A bunch are in the Solo Spec Coupe class (because they all bitched about constantly losing to MX-5s for years and TireRack saw an opportunity to sell an upgrade package to a bunch of autocrossers) and the rest moved on to Street Touring Xtreme (STX).
https://www.tirerack.com/images/pdf/...Spec_Coupe.pdf



You'll notice that with aftermarket springs and control arms the BRZ/FRS is nearly as fast as the "stock" MX-5.


In STX they're allowed more modifications where they can really tighten up the suspension and attempt to make it about as reasonably focused as possible while still being a livable street car.



But then, the MX-5s have their own equivalent class to STX called Street Touring Roadster (STR). Same modifications allowed. Most of the ND1s moved to STR because they're no longer competitive against the ND2s.



With the same mods the MX-5 is still nearly 1 full second/minute faster... Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning. That's a dramatic difference in speed and handling.

Same course. Same day. These are the same kinds of results you'll find all over the nation at local and regional events. These are just the most serious folks that travel to Kansas at the end of every season to duke it out. So, I can say with certainty, that given the most evenly competitive data we have between the two cars, that the twins are at a significant disadvantage in the arena of running circles around things.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 06:28 PM   #417
4S-TURBO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 67807
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: por\\and
Vehicle:
V^V justrememberall
capswhenuspellyomansname

Default

It runs circles around the backseat occupants.
4S-TURBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 06:30 PM   #418
Fierysun
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 82745
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: So Cal
Vehicle:
2005 Subaru STI
2003 EJ207 S204 Wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
So, I can say with certainty, that given the most evenly competitive data we have between the two cars, that the twins are at a significant disadvantage in the arena of running circles around things.
Ouch for the FRS/BRZ guys.
Fierysun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 07:23 PM   #419
JustyWRC
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 153088
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arlington, TN
Vehicle:
2005 Baja Turbo
06 Forester 18 Imp Sport

Default

Apologies.

All well and good. My mistake. I thought we were talking about.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
...Even a base model MX-5...

I'm sure this ND2 with it's 26 extra hp puts down numbers that are even faster; and, absolutely an inch/mile/minute/second doesn't matter coming in second. But that doesn't constitute "running circles". I just don't like exaggeration. The twins don't do half bad for Subaru's first go at this. How long has Mazda been fine tuning that fun little machine?
JustyWRC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 08:05 PM   #420
4S-TURBO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 67807
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: por\\and
Vehicle:
V^V justrememberall
capswhenuspellyomansname

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I'm sure this ND2 with it's 26 extra hp puts down numbers that are even faster; and, absolutely an inch/mile/minute/second doesn't matter coming in second. But that doesn't constitute "running circles". I just don't like exaggeration. The twins don't do half bad for Subaru's first go at this. How long has Mazda been fine tuning that fun little machine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Yeah, after training, I have to fully disagree with this and advise you to go drive one yourself. It's 14 years later and suspension is going to be much different; but, I thought it handled quite well. "Sporty" is something that's going to be individual preference. This car will run circles around the LGT. On regular at that....
Ok but really? 2020 Justy meet 2019 Justy.
4S-TURBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 08:06 PM   #421
chanomatik
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 159474
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Whitinsville, MA
Vehicle:
2017 Impreza Sport
Lithium Red - OLDKID

Default

And the ND is newer while the Twins have been the same since 2012. I always think it's odd saying the newer car is better than the older car, when I figure that's how it should be. I assume the next gen of Twins will run circles around the ND2, then the NE will run around Gen 2 Twins, and so on and so forth.
chanomatik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 08:25 PM   #422
JustyWRC
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 153088
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arlington, TN
Vehicle:
2005 Baja Turbo
06 Forester 18 Imp Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
Ok but really? 2020 Justy meet 2019 Justy.
Ha!

Eating crow.













Have we seen anyone do a direct comparo of the LXT vs the old LGT yet? I might be saved yet!!
JustyWRC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 08:43 PM   #423
Brahmzy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3293
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: CO
Vehicle:
'20 Ascent
'15 XTerra P4X

Default

MT vs CVT? That***8217;s the big kicker, although the LGT***8217;s MT wasn***8217;t much to write home about.
Always felt like I was one hard launch away from blowing up the whole MT.
I***8217;ve heard the fake shifting in the new LXT is pretty horrid..
I need to go drive one of those new LXTs.

I remember awful shuddering in my LGT. I also remember watching it get Protuned on the dyno and how freaking loud the catless exhaust was. And.. that eye watering, nose burning smell...

I remember installing a Whiteline thicker rear sway bar and transforming it. I Also remember doing 145mph in it.
Brahmzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 08:44 PM   #424
4S-TURBO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 67807
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: por\\and
Vehicle:
V^V justrememberall
capswhenuspellyomansname

Default

I hereby challenge any XT in the Portland area to a track off at PIR. Run the circleses on me.
4S-TURBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 09:21 PM   #425
n2oiroc
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 141952
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: milwaukee'ish
Vehicle:
20 Audi S4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
I hereby challenge any XT in the Portland area to a track off at PIR. Run the circleses on me.
LOL! FUNNY GUY! VIR IS THE ONLY TRACK THAT COUNTS! LMFAO!
n2oiroc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2020 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.