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Old 08-16-2020, 06:51 PM   #551
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That was articulated very well. Thanks, Skunkers.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:10 PM   #552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
Look, I realize the futility in calling the most tracked car in the world half-assed, I do. And indeed, I will prefix the notion I'm not one of those knuckleheads asking for moar powar in the Miata. I only hope my post delivers the nuance that I have in my head. But I do think, as far as my personal considerations, that the Miata has spent most of it's life as a outstanding chassis in search of a motor. Again, not because of power, but more so power delivery. At least in my own experience with the models I haven personally driven, the NA, NB, and NC were all saddled with "average"... kind of "USDM-economy-car" feeling motors. I don't know if that was a direct result of Ford's input, as Mazda did indeed design all the variant MX-5 engine designs AFAIK even if they did double for Ford duty. But regardless, none of the motors I have personally driven had exciting powerbands, they were all kind of boat-anchory engines (the NC perhaps least of all, but not a concise difference thanks to the weight gain of that generations' shared platform), with even the turbo Mazdaspeed MX-5's running out of steam in the last 1000rpm. Only now with the ND2 have they finally fitted a performance-feeling engine with a higher revving, peakier powerband that accentuates the light and handling focused chassis's strengths, imo. By coincidence, it is also now quite a properly quick car; significantly quicker than the twins even with less power. It's always been a wonderful car, especially as a platform for tuning and track duty, but only now I think has it realized the potential it's had all these years. If that constitutes that the old ones were half-assed, I don't know, but I do think they were flawed masterpieces.
Great post! The comments concerning the Camaro were enlightening.

As for Miatas being flawed masterpieces, I think of them more as constrained rather than flawed, but your points stand regardless.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:55 PM   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
Look, I realize the futility in calling the most tracked car in the world half-assed, I do. And indeed, I will prefix the notion I'm not one of those knuckleheads asking for moar powar in the Miata. I only hope my post delivers the nuance that I have in my head. But I do think, as far as my personal considerations, that the Miata has spent most of it's life as a outstanding chassis in search of a motor. Again, not because of power, but more so power delivery. At least in my own experience with the models I haven personally driven, the NA, NB, and NC were all saddled with "average"... kind of "USDM-economy-car" feeling motors. I don't know if that was a direct result of Ford's input, as Mazda did indeed design all the variant MX-5 engine designs AFAIK even if they did double for Ford duty. But regardless, none of the motors I have personally driven had exciting powerbands, they were all kind of boat-anchory engines (the NC perhaps least of all, but not a concise difference thanks to the weight gain of that generations' shared platform), with even the turbo Mazdaspeed MX-5's running out of steam in the last 1000rpm. Only now with the ND2 have they finally fitted a performance-feeling engine with a higher revving, peakier powerband that accentuates the light and handling focused chassis's strengths, imo. By coincidence, it is also now quite a properly quick car; significantly quicker than the twins even with less power. It's always been a wonderful car, especially as a platform for tuning and track duty, but only now I think has it realized the potential it's had all these years. If that constitutes that the old ones were half-assed, I don't know, but I do think they were flawed masterpieces.
The refreshed ND is the first Miata to have an engine that's almost worthy of the chassis. You should drive one.
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:37 PM   #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
The refreshed ND is the first Miata to have an engine that's almost worthy of the chassis. You should drive one.
I... just said that in the text you quoted?
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:18 PM   #555
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The less-than-inspiring motors with the other excellent running gear were kind of what made them endearing. And now with a semi-hot-rodded motor (relatively speaking of course) it has definitely come more alive and has more of the personality I think a lot of people expected. I agree with Skunkers, and it's a little tough to articulate.
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:22 PM   #556
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For fun driving I actually liked the 1.6 NA Miata over the 1.8 even though it was slower. You could just ring the 1.6 all day long. It was happy to rev.

Now the S/C 1.8 I had was fun in different ways.
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:45 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
For fun driving I actually liked the 1.6 NA Miata over the 1.8 even though it was slower. You could just ring the 1.6 all day long. It was happy to rev.

Now the S/C 1.8 I had was fun in different ways.
I will mention in reference to my above post, the 1.6L is one configuration I have not driven. All of the multiple NAs and NBs I've driven in anger had the 1.8L.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alape8 View Post
The less-than-inspiring motors with the other excellent running gear were kind of what made them endearing. And now with a semi-hot-rodded motor (relatively speaking of course) it has definitely come more alive and has more of the personality I think a lot of people expected. I agree with Skunkers, and it's a little tough to articulate.
I will comment on this remark to say despite the feelings articulated in my post, I do agree and acknowledge that those choices were deliberate and contributed to the character of the car and made it endearing. We know this for a fact from interviews with Bob Hall and others: that they deliberately didn't fit aggressive suspension settings and hardware on the MX-5 (and actually actively fought against those impulses in development) because it was intended with uncompromising vision to be cheap fun roadster, not a hardcore sports car. So yes, it wasn't meant to have a race engine, and the suspension is deliberately setup to have *some* body roll, in order to keep the car "playful". I don't dislike it because of that; but to my own personal preference, the engine's character should feel kind of racy, even if the horsepower remained low. I feel that especially strongly in the era that the car came about in, as the late 80's/90's (especially) was literally the era of light small peaky JP DOHC engines with variable valve timing.

Last edited by Skunkers; 08-20-2020 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:46 PM   #558
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The NA Miata was trying to bring back the driving experience of roadsters with pushrod engines. They went for the nice, predictable, midrange peak torque band and a peppy engine note. That formula sold like hotcakes, so they've had little incentive to change it up until the NDA sales were slipping early.
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:55 PM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
For fun driving I actually liked the 1.6 NA Miata over the 1.8 even though it was slower. You could just ring the 1.6 all day long. It was happy to rev.

Now the S/C 1.8 I had was fun in different ways.
Agreed.

My 1.6 with light flywheel and a header was a hoot. I’d love to get another and do a hot N/A build.
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Old 08-21-2020, 04:56 PM   #560
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Y'all crazy, the NA Miata is the best sports car I have ever driven. If you think it doesn't have enough motor then you are entirely missing the point of the car.

The fact that you can use all that it has to offer on the public roadway without being a dangerous asstard is the biggest draw. Smiles per mile can't be beat. I love my MR2 T but I cannot just cane the ever living **** out of it everywhere.

My Wife's Miata inspired me so much, I went out and bought 2 british classics to mod up to it's level.
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Old 08-21-2020, 05:15 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
The NA Miata was trying to bring back the driving experience of roadsters with pushrod engines. They went for the nice, predictable, midrange peak torque band and a peppy engine note.
Almost agree with you here CJ. Although british roadsters (mostly) were a general souce of inspiration for the Miata (and many british roadsters did have pushrod engines), it was the Lotus Elan which was the benchmark for development. The Elan has a twincam head with a ford bottom end... but also a very strong midrange peak torque. It is also a 1.6L (1558cc actually).

The Miata also tried to emulate the Lotus suspension philosophy, which is why it is lighter sprung than some people think it should be.
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Old 08-21-2020, 05:28 PM   #562
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What the hell do you know about Elans, brandon?


Seriously, I can always count on you to keep me honest around here.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:01 PM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
Y'all crazy, the NA Miata is the best sports car I have ever driven. If you think it doesn't have enough motor then you are entirely missing the point of the car.
Nobody said that.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:01 PM   #564
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double post

Last edited by Skunkers; 08-22-2020 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:43 PM   #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
Nobody said that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
But I do think, as far as my personal considerations, that the Miata has spent most of it's life as a outstanding chassis in search of a motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
The refreshed ND is the first Miata to have an engine that's almost worthy of the chassis. You should drive one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alape8 View Post
The less-than-inspiring motors with the other excellent running gear were kind of what made them endearing. And now with a semi-hot-rodded motor (relatively speaking of course) it has definitely come more alive and has more of the personality I think a lot of people expected. I agree with Skunkers, and it's a little tough to articulate.
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Old 08-21-2020, 07:41 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
There's a big difference between hp/torque... and the personality of an engine. Skunkers was referring to the way power is delivered in SOME of the Miatas over the years, not whether or not it has enough power/torque. I generally agree with him in that most of the Miatas I've driven the power delivery has been a little dull. But, the Miata isn't exactly an expensive car, so one can only expect so much for the $. Mazda put thier development into the chassis and suspension design, which is where I think it is best placed.
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Old 08-21-2020, 07:47 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
What the hell do you know about Elans, brandon?


Seriously, I can always count on you to keep me honest around here.
Not enough unfortunately... otherwise my 64' would be finished. One of these days I'd like to have a beer with you. You seem like a good egg.

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Old 08-22-2020, 08:23 PM   #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkers
But I do think, as far as my personal considerations, that the Miata has spent most of it's life as a outstanding chassis in search of a motor.
Nice snip, let's fix your quote so it doesn't deliberately omit what I very specifically went out of my way to express. Here you go, bolded and underlined so you can't miss it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkers
Look, I realize the futility in calling the most tracked car in the world half-assed, I do. And indeed, I will prefix the notion I'm not one of those knuckleheads asking for moar powar in the Miata. I only hope my post delivers the nuance that I have in my head. But I do think, as far as my personal considerations, that the Miata has spent most of it's life as a outstanding chassis in search of a motor. Again, not because of power, but more so power delivery. At least in my own experience with the models I haven personally driven, the NA, NB, and NC were all saddled with "average"... kind of "USDM-economy-car" feeling motors. I don't know if that was a direct result of Ford's input, as Mazda did indeed design all the variant MX-5 engine designs AFAIK even if they did double for Ford duty. But regardless, none of the motors I have personally driven had exciting powerbands, they were all kind of boat-anchory engines (the NC perhaps least of all, but not a concise difference thanks to the weight gain of that generations' shared platform), with even the turbo Mazdaspeed MX-5's running out of steam in the last 1000rpm. Only now with the ND2 have they finally fitted a performance-feeling engine with a higher revving, peakier powerband that accentuates the light and handling focused chassis's strengths, imo. By coincidence, it is also now quite a properly quick car; significantly quicker than the twins even with less power. It's always been a wonderful car, especially as a platform for tuning and track duty, but only now I think has it realized the potential it's had all these years. If that constitutes that the old ones were half-assed, I don't know, but I do think they were flawed masterpieces.
Nobody said Miatas didn't have enough motor, we said the motors they had didn't deliver power they did have in a fun way until the ND2.

Last edited by Skunkers; 08-22-2020 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 08-22-2020, 09:19 PM   #569
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So many of the Miatas' engines were were slow and rough to rev. Like an old 3800 GM V6. They weren't powerful, but even given the low power level they weren't enjoyable to drive.
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Old 08-22-2020, 09:46 PM   #570
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What I like about Miata's is that it is a committed car.. 2 seater and all. It is as unpractical as it should be for a sports car.

But what I don't like is that it's frikken slow in my area with mostly straight roads.. if I had canyons near by I'd get one, but sports cars need acceleration and presence here.
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Old 08-24-2020, 04:34 PM   #571
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Old 08-24-2020, 05:03 PM   #572
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Old 08-24-2020, 05:37 PM   #573
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2nd photo reminds of a little bit of Cayman. But I think it'll look better than those renders. Please let it have a turbo option. Would be internet bukake.
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Old 08-24-2020, 05:55 PM   #574
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There’s no way the Toyota is that clean looking. It’s going to have the same bumpy fang looking front end of the old 86 and the Supra.
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Old 08-24-2020, 07:50 PM   #575
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All I can see is an old Toyota Solara in that 3rd picture of the rear.


Last edited by kayen; 08-24-2020 at 07:56 PM.
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