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Old 01-09-2021, 06:30 PM   #1
WiredWRX
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Default Is The Tuner/Shop Trying To Up Sell Me?

Sorry for the strange Title, but its pretty accurate, and the reason for my post.

Recently got my fourth scooby, a 2020 WRX. I was bitten by the mod bug a long time ago, but for the last 10 years or so, I have been "good" and havent modded any of my cars. But, when I got this one, I felt it was time to start again. Now, I am not looking to make max power....yet!

So, I started researching, and of course, found out about E85, and the benefits. Read some more, and some more, and decided that I was looking to make on the order of 325 or so HP and TQ at the wheels, and came up with the following:

Cobb AP
Cobb Big SF
AEM/Cobb fuel pump
Cobb FF sensor
Cobb EBCS

Found a somewhat local tuner, sent them an email with a brief description of what I was after, and what I planned, and they said they could take care of me. I then made an appointment.

I showed up for the appointment, and after completing some paperwork, the "tuner" came over to talk with me. First question was, do I have a replacement High Pressure Fuel Pump? No, why would I need that? Because E85 will ruin it he says. But, E50 shouldn't. No, it will, he says. They fail quickly. And then he mentions that he has no HPFP in stock. Next question was "Do you have a J Pipe?" No, I don't want a J pipe, I want to leave the emissions stuff alone as much as possible. Well, if you want to make power, you need a J pipe, and an exhaust. I don't want an exhaust, again, I want to keep things emissions wife as stock as possible, plus, I have no desire to listen to drone while I drive.

Well, he says, if no HPFP and J pipe, I can only tune the car on 91. But what about FF, he responds only E30, and if I tune it on E30, if you go above or below even 1 percent, it will throw a CEL. Hmmmmm, something isn't right, I feel.

Then he asks about TGV and EGV deletes. Again, I didn't plan on them, but I might consider that.

At this point, I am pretty pissed for scheduling the tune and install and it being a complete waste of time.

So, I ask for pricing for a J pipe, and HPFP, to consider my options, even though all the research I have done indicates they are not needed to make very decent numbers with E50-E60. It's an additional 2k, PLUS install.

So I left, with nothing being done. Pretty disappointed.

So, is the guy feeding me a line, or is he right? Am I really limited to E30 (and apparently, ONLY E30) without spending more than a grand for an aftermarket HPFP? Do I really need a J pipe also. Or, was my plan solid, and he's just trying to upsell me. There is no doubt in my mind that with a J pipe, exhaust, FMIC (no, he didn't mention it, but I have a feeling its coming) I can make a bunch of power, but really, I would be happy with just 300 whp, and really happy with 350.

Thanks,
Michael
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Old 01-09-2021, 06:53 PM   #2
Rexy18
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https://phatbottituning.com/

Get an etune w your setup. Thank me later.

30k on straight e50 (no 91oct tanks ever) on Rons tune. Stock hpfp, dw300c lpfp.
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Old 01-09-2021, 07:10 PM   #3
WMTwrx15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy18 View Post
https://phatbottituning.com/

Get an etune w your setup. Thank me later.

30k on straight e50 (no 91oct tanks ever) on Rons tune. Stock hpfp, dw300c lpfp.

What he said...

Check out mike Adkins..getmtuned.com

He does all my tuning and zero complaints and very easy to work with and does a great job
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Old 01-10-2021, 10:09 AM   #4
Bluestreak03
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LMFAO, sorry first issue is you live in California. As far as jpipe, exhaust and drone...I still have trouble hearing them even idle next to my car... And it sounds like to me the tuner is not open to many options or thoughts on how the customer wants "THEIR" car... Just for you info he is probably mainly talking about the catalytic converters getting destroyed
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Old 01-10-2021, 11:29 AM   #5
Rexy18
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I am willing to bet that he does not have mapping developed for every setup, hence will only tune you to what he has.
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Old 01-11-2021, 12:57 AM   #6
Malakai2k
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Because he know's you'll be back to blame him when the HPFP fails. Before that though you will be complaining about the low results because of no J pipe. I get the feeling his questions are a result of learning the hard way from previous customers.
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Old 01-11-2021, 06:32 AM   #7
hotdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai2k View Post
Because he know's you'll be back to blame him when the HPFP fails. Before that though you will be complaining about the low results because of no J pipe. I get the feeling his questions are a result of learning the hard way from previous customers.
I agree with that. The HPFP is expensive; people don't like spending money. But he, as a tuner, has a right to suggest it; just because people *can* run the stock HPFP doesn't mean it's a good idea, and replacing it *is* a good idea.

I've had a lot of work done to a lot of cars, and I found one thing to be true: Work directly with the tuner/shop to buy parts they recommend, and they 'like'. Order stuff through them; don't Amazon-search and show up with a box full of parts for them to bolt on. Work directly through them, from beginning to end, as it makes the whole experience more 'smooth' and less clunky; their recommended parts, their recommended tune, etc. For example, I wanted to buy the MAPerformance Downpipe; the shop I worked with is a Cobb dealer, so they got me a Cobb DP. I don't *care*, and it's not like the piping is that much different, but working with the shop, directly, hand in hand, can make for a much better experience.

So, do I think the shop was 'upselling'? Probably not. But they know what they like; they like an aftermarket HPFP. You're fine to disagree, but I'd personally just find a different shop, if you disagree with their assessment. That's the free market for ya too

Last edited by hotdog; 01-11-2021 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 01-11-2021, 09:04 AM   #8
noobultimatum
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ALL THE STAGES

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Plenty of data here on the forums clear up the HPFP issue. E50-60 is the upper limit before prolonged use causes "sticking".

It's also documented here that stock j-pipe with FF makes more than stg2 generally. Jpipe plus FF would make more, but not THAT much more.

Sounds like OP's tuner is severely limited in his ability to tune and overall knowledge on this (FA20dit) platform.

Do what rexy18 said and enjoy the car. You already know modding comes with its risks considering your relationship with the mod-bug.
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Old 01-11-2021, 12:51 PM   #9
hengyu408
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I would look into a different tuner. Definitely sounds like he is trying to sell you stuff that you don't need. The stock HPFP can run up to e65 blend. I would say get the flex fuel sensor and aem 340 fuel pump and have it e-tuned by someone that's more knowledgable with the FA20.
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Old 01-11-2021, 02:10 PM   #10
killadawg
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I was hitting 550whp on stock HPFP... yeah I've got meth etc.. but for 325whp.. hell, I had that on 93 only (with Jpipe).. no need for airbox till you hit 350+ whp No need for catback exhaust either until higher output.. Jpipe helps, yet you can reach 325 on flex and no jpipe.. E40ish will keep stock hpfp fine a DW300c or AEM340 are fine as well for in tank fuel pumps. Meth injection is also an option for more power and boosting octane also easy power that allows you to shut it off and pass an inspection with ease. I don't agree with just letting the tuner decide your build!! What happened to creativity and custom builds?? I say NO to copy paste tuners!!!! If you follow enough of the posts you will learn that Cobb CAI sucks and stock is just fine.. some parts introduce more trouble than they boost performance. A shinny part doesn't always translate to better. I know I've learned the hard way. Find another tuner and take your time.
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Old 01-11-2021, 04:26 PM   #11
CGumina
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Run from that shop. The guy you're working with is trying to both upsell you and wrap you around his limited ability to tune.

You can achieve ~300whp with a competent tuner and the correct hardware. My suggestion would be the following:

-Cobb Accessport
-Flex Fuel sensor of your choice (shop around)
-EBSC of your choice (shop around)
-Protune

Skip the intake. For your goals, it isn't a restriction, and it will come with more challenges (read: MAF issues, worse filtration, noise) than rewards (noise).

If you're worried about longevity, have an E30 tune for daily driving and something to the order of E50 for more twist when you feel like turning up the wick. While you CAN do more with the factory pump, you're playing with fire.

You'll have a quiet, comfortable car that churns out plenty of grunt and won't be obnoxious. A resonated catback wouldn't be a bad add-on either, as the factory unit is unresonated and "booms" a lot in the cabin. My car with a stock J-pipe and a Q300 exhaust is actually less loud inside than it was from the factory, but nice and throaty outside the car without attracting unwanted attention.

Last edited by CGumina; 01-11-2021 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:11 AM   #12
egodestruct
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CWP

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Going to +1 what everyone else has been saying - your tuner clearly does not know this platform. Most of what he said was flat out wrong.

If you want only the parts you absolutely need for flex fuel, get the following:
  • LPFP (dw300c or AEM)
  • AOS or Radium catch cans
  • Cobb Flex Fuel Kit
  • TGV deletes
  • Grimspeed EBCS

If you want more power and a safer tune, a catted downpipe and intercooler would be next on the list but they aren't absolutely required for flex fuel. BTW, a catted downpipe with a stock catback is basically the same as stock, noise wise.

And most of all - get an e-tune from Ron at phatbotti.
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:21 PM   #13
subaru_gc8
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maybe you're not thinking of this the right way, you are saying you only want to run e30 but that is not how flex fuel works. the thing that maybe you will get a bunch of boost creep that will be hard to tune out without the j pipe there. There can be alot of factors that may cause problem for the tuner. Also I noticed that you are missing injectors and a pump

just as a side note in California, they are starting to red flag people with tunes and if you go flex fuel you will not pass the visual anyways.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:33 PM   #14
Rexy18
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Why would he need injectors? What pump?

He has everything he needs and wants, but you have a point about emissions.
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Old 01-14-2021, 04:58 PM   #15
egodestruct
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In California at least, new cars do not need a smog check for 8 years.
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Old 01-27-2021, 02:59 PM   #16
WiredWRX
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Thanks for everyones suggestions and ideas. I decided to do the following:

COBB Big SF
COBB FF sensor
COBB EBCS
COBB/AEM in tank fuel pump
TGV Deletes
Unplug EGR

I have also decided to tune with PhatBotti.

I had the parts installed yesterday, and other than some expected problems starting and running initially, everything appeared/appears fine. The intake definitely is noisy, maybe a little noisier than I expected, but it kind of remind me of my 2002 Bugeye when I installed the AEM CAI. Lets see how it goes over with the little lady, though I doubt it will matter. I plan to keep it

I sent the requested logs to Ron, and he pointed out that the car wasn't making boost. I checked the log, and saw it was only making about 10psi max when at WOT. I am surprised because the car felt really good last night, and faster based on my un-calibrated butt dyno. Ron suggested I check on the EBCS install. I called the installer and am waiting for a call back, but in the meantime, wonder if anyone has any ideas what to check, without dropping the undertray if possible.

Now off to do some research
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Old 01-27-2021, 07:36 PM   #17
krahk
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Take the plastic cover off the top of the engine and check the clamps/connection going into and out of the intercooler. Could be a leak in the charge system. Would have to be a massive leak to limit boost to 10psi though.

Best bet is to drop the splash guards and check the routing on the EBCS. GrimmSpeed has an install video that you could use to make sure routing is correct.
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Old 01-28-2021, 01:29 AM   #18
WiredWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krahk View Post
Take the plastic cover off the top of the engine and check the clamps/connection going into and out of the intercooler. Could be a leak in the charge system. Would have to be a massive leak to limit boost to 10psi though.

Best bet is to drop the splash guards and check the routing on the EBCS. GrimmSpeed has an install video that you could use to make sure routing is correct.
Thanks for that. I ended up bringing it back to the shop. Turns out they mistakenly swapped two hoses on the EBCS. They move them to the correct location, and all is good now.
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Old 01-28-2021, 10:17 AM   #19
krahk
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That's good news. I have a similar setup (minus the intake) and recently finished etuning with Ron. The tune is solid and the car is a blast to drive!
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Old 01-28-2021, 12:35 PM   #20
WiredWRX
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Awesome!!!
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Old 01-28-2021, 12:35 PM   #21
gilliganza88
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Default Making 325-350 Whp On Dyno

You will need a lot more than what you have to RELIABLY make 325-350 HP at the wheels on a conservative dyno (like a Mustang dyno). Think stage 2+ w/ not only Cobb AP and intake but also full 3" exhaust, j-pipe, EBCS, intercooler, charge pipe, fuel pump, TGV plate delete, header). You certainly won't do it with a stage 1 Cobb kit and OTS tune. Good luck with your mods and tuner!!!
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Old 01-28-2021, 02:27 PM   #22
WiredWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilliganza88 View Post
You will need a lot more than what you have to RELIABLY make 325-350 HP at the wheels on a conservative dyno (like a Mustang dyno). Think stage 2+ w/ not only Cobb AP and intake but also full 3" exhaust, j-pipe, EBCS, intercooler, charge pipe, fuel pump, TGV plate delete, header). You certainly won't do it with a stage 1 Cobb kit and OTS tune. Good luck with your mods and tuner!!!
Thanks for your opinion, but a vast majority of my research indicates that my power goals are very doable with my chosen mod list, including speaking with the tuner--no OTS maps here. Plus, I guess it depends on your definition of "Reliably" making the power. If reliability to you means engine longevity, when, all mods affect engine reliability. Plus, my car is a lease I just need it to last 3 years
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Old 01-28-2021, 03:03 PM   #23
killadawg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiredWRX View Post
Plus, my car is a lease I just need it to last 3 years
That is why NEVER buy a used subi!!! unless you plan to rebuild half of it!!
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Old 01-28-2021, 03:08 PM   #24
WiredWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killadawg View Post
That is why NEVER buy a used subi!!! unless you plan to rebuild half of it!!
Or get a warranty/extended warranty.
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Old 01-28-2021, 03:35 PM   #25
Craigster08
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I'm genuinely curious here. You are leasing this car and are modifying it? Do you plan on buying it or returning it after the lease is up?
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