Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday March 29, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-30-2006, 10:36 PM   #1
ericd735i
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 98802
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
2005 9-2x
Black

Default RCE springs on a wagon

**edit**I've been speaking with Myles and if there are at least 25 people who will buy he can run a wagon-specific spring for us with the same rates as the current STi springs. Reply below and let me know what you want for ride heights. We are discussing the ride height only, initial feedback indicates everyone wants the firmer rates. Changing the rate also complicates things to the point where it isn't easily do-able.







For reference the car is an '05 Saabaru, wheels are 16x8 et48 Rota Slipstreams, shocks are Koni inserts. Swaybars are stock 20F/16R.

So far my impression is very positive. Ride is FIRM, but I like it, not harsh at all. Still playing with Koni settings. However the front has bottomed out a few times on harder edged bumps and holes. It's a bit low for my taste and the loss of travel up front is a concern, but the tradeoff is great handling. It finally feels more like my dearly departed '95 m3. I'd like another 15mm of ride height if Myles were ever to contemplate a wagon-specific offering, but other than that, so far so good.

Last edited by ericd735i; 01-04-2007 at 01:11 PM. Reason: feedback
ericd735i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2006, 10:57 PM   #2
Blue5spdWRXWgn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon - WRB
2005 9-2X - SGM

Default

Ouch, that thing looks low. Can you take some measurements for us? I've got a set still sitting in the box waiting to go on the car, but now you've got me concerned that the height might be just too low for me. Nice car btw.
Blue5spdWRXWgn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2006, 02:11 AM   #3
RaceComp Engineering
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 54202
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Elkridge, Maryland
Vehicle:
ASK ABOUT NEW RCE
SWAY BARS FOR STI

Default

Looks like the local guys car these springs. Did you do anything with the bump stop when you did the Koni swap?....those tires look very "bubbly" what size are they?..just curious.

Myles
RaceComp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2006, 03:26 AM   #4
chudlo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 15505
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Vehicle:
2002 JDMV8 STI Wagon

Default

Wow! The front bottomed out? That is scary.

What happened that the front bottomed out? With my current setup the rear has bottomed out but never the front.
I guess the Konis could be the reason for the front bottoming out?

I wanted to ask you to get a couple people in the back and hit some bumpy roads to see how the rear would hold up to some extra weight, since I am very concerned with the rear bottoming out.

Thanks.
chudlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2006, 09:05 AM   #5
ericd735i
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 98802
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
2005 9-2x
Black

Default

When I've hit a couple of bigger, sharp edged dips there is a solid feeling bang from the front. Nothing scary happened, just loud. One spot is where a fancy paver sidewalk crosses the asphalt near where the pic was taken, but it's a poorly paved brutal dip. I've had no rubbing at all from the rear. The bubbly tires are 225/50-16.

I did not cut the bump stops. The Koni question is interesting, I never considered losing bump travel. I went back and looked at the Koni instructions and it doesn't appear any bump would be lost, no more than a few mm anyway.

Quick measurements are 13.5 front 12.5 rear. It is lower than I'd hoped, but I knew this was an experiment. So far the handling is worth it, but if Myles wants to make a spring with the same rates and more ride height I'd swap again, although I'm running out of excuses to give the wife on why I keep taking my car apart. Maybe a "high-rider" spring for wagon guys and STi guys that want closer to stock ride height?

**Edit** I re-measured and it's actually closer to 14"front and 13" rear. It was late when I took the first measurements, or maybe Myles has made a spring that actually raises as it settles.

Last edited by ericd735i; 12-31-2006 at 10:39 AM. Reason: Re-measured
ericd735i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2006, 10:42 AM   #6
SoutFL_9-2x
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 105424
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Miami
Vehicle:
'13 Forester 2.5X
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericd735i View Post
When I've hit a couple of bigger, sharp edged dips there is a solid feeling bang from the front. Nothing scary happened, just loud. One spot is where a fancy paver sidewalk crosses the asphalt near where the pic was taken, but it's a poorly paved brutal dip. I've had no rubbing at all from the rear. The bubbly tires are 225/50-16.

I did not cut the bump stops. The Koni question is interesting, I never considered losing bump travel. I went back and looked at the Koni instructions and it doesn't appear any bump would be lost, no more than a few mm anyway.

Quick measurements are 13.5 front 12.5 rear. It is lower than I'd hoped, but I knew this was an experiment. So far the handling is worth it, but if Myles wants to make a spring with the same rates and more ride height I'd swap again, although I'm running out of excuses to give the wife on why I keep taking my car apart. Maybe a "high-rider" spring for wagon guys and STi guys that want closer to stock ride height?

**Edit** I re-measured and it's actually closer to 14"front and 13" rear. It was late when I took the first measurements, or maybe Myles has made a spring that actually raises as it settles.
Stock, our cars sit at 15 1/2" Front, 14 1/8" Rear.
Those numbers are kinda low. It's good you're on Koni's.
SoutFL_9-2x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2006, 11:44 AM   #7
RaceComp Engineering
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 54202
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Elkridge, Maryland
Vehicle:
ASK ABOUT NEW RCE
SWAY BARS FOR STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericd735i View Post
The bubbly tires are 225/50-16.
This is why it "appears" so low. They are very bubbly visually. Makes a difference.

As for measurements, I would do it again on concrete, or something SUPER level. Remember we have a 36,000 view, 1050 post thread on IWSTI that has about 20 pages on ride height comparisons and after a while not have realized that asphalt is the most inconsistent surface to measure or look for ride height differences on AND that most concrete isnt level either.

Yes the rear is lower than desired, but no worse than JDM Pinks.

I WILL SAY THIS NOW, before the responses start:

These springs are intended for the 04-07 STI, so some wagon owners( we are happy they did) decided to try this out.

So I am curious about the Koni side of this equation, because we dont have STI's bottoming out like you describe.

I think if you are using an insert you are going to lose some travel. Prob more than a few mm, prob more like 10-15 mm.

The other thing here is( and I dont know if you had STOCK prior) is that if you went from OEM to these, YES it is going to be ALOT firmer with ALOT more NVH...no way around that. This side of Ohlins fixed perch, there wont be a super firm, yet non jarring ride from a strut....but then again...thats the KONI side of the ride, not the springs.

I ran Koni's and Bilsteins on all my euro cars from 1985(yes) to current and Koni ALWAYS has had a HARD initial jolt versus Bilstein has the opposite, simply by design.

So your impression is spot on, these very firm springs mated to Koni's will be (IMO) more harsh than say STI struts and or Ohlins struts with the RCE springs.

Oh and to be clear, since it might sound like I am mad or being defensive, I am not,...I am just clearing some things up and giving my .02 cents worth.

ALOT of people dont know these things and so I am just putting it out there.

Myles
RaceComp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2006, 01:32 PM   #8
ralliharri
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85035
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: central coast CA
Vehicle:
2017 Forester XT
KTM 690 Duke

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericd735i View Post
When I've hit a couple of bigger, sharp edged dips there is a solid feeling bang from the front. Nothing scary happened, just loud. One spot is where a fancy paver sidewalk crosses the asphalt near where the pic was taken, but it's a poorly paved brutal dip. I've had no rubbing at all from the rear. The bubbly tires are 225/50-16.

I did not cut the bump stops. The Koni question is interesting, I never considered losing bump travel. I went back and looked at the Koni instructions and it doesn't appear any bump would be lost, no more than a few mm anyway.

Quick measurements are 13.5 front 12.5 rear. It is lower than I'd hoped, but I knew this was an experiment. So far the handling is worth it, but if Myles wants to make a spring with the same rates and more ride height I'd swap again, although I'm running out of excuses to give the wife on why I keep taking my car apart. Maybe a "high-rider" spring for wagon guys and STi guys that want closer to stock ride height?

**Edit** I re-measured and it's actually closer to 14"front and 13" rear. It was late when I took the first measurements, or maybe Myles has made a spring that actually raises as it settles.

I doubt you're bottoming them out, I think it's the high speed compression damping, there's too much of it, so therfore the shocks dont move much, therfore you're feeling the "harshness" or jolt. I have the same problem, small sharp edges makes a crashing sound but the car doesnt move much.
ralliharri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 02:31 AM   #9
drees
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Silver Wagon
Tuned with Enginuity

Default

The Konis do noticeably reduce bump travel, someone had a special Koni bump stop extender that would increase bump travel by an inch or so with the Koni inserts, try searching...

Edit: Not positive the Konis reduce bump travel by an appreciable amuont, I was thinking of the Konis + GC coil over sleeves and lack of bump travel issue. The Koni bump extender mod does work, though!

Last edited by drees; 01-01-2007 at 02:25 PM.
drees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 06:59 AM   #10
RaceComp Engineering
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 54202
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Elkridge, Maryland
Vehicle:
ASK ABOUT NEW RCE
SWAY BARS FOR STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drees View Post
The Konis do noticeably reduce bump travel, someone had a special Koni bump stop extender that would increase bump travel by an inch or so with the Koni inserts, try searching...
WOW...thats kinda what I figured.

Myles
RaceComp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 07:24 AM   #11
Uncle Scotty
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK buy Nates beans
westcoastroasting.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering View Post
WOW...thats kinda what I figured.

Myles
....and the loss of bump travel is the HUGE pitfall that many do NOT consider when making a choice for part of their suspension system.

Last edited by Uncle Scotty; 01-01-2007 at 03:21 PM.
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 08:50 AM   #12
Blue5spdWRXWgn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon - WRB
2005 9-2X - SGM

Default

I have a set of each (Koni inserted and stock). I'll take some measurements and get back to you. BTW, the jounce travel can easily be compared by measuring the distance from the upper strut clevis hole to the jounce bumper strike surface. If this is equal, then the jounce travel is too. The rebound travel is not as easy because you have to measure the length of fully extended strut rod, also from the strut clevis bracket mounting hole. This usually requires that the strut is removed from the car.
Blue5spdWRXWgn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 11:39 AM   #13
ericd735i
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 98802
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
2005 9-2x
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue5spdWRXWgn View Post
I have a set of each (Koni inserted and stock). I'll take some measurements and get back to you.
Thanks. Put up a pic if you can.
ericd735i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 10:18 AM   #14
the_poser
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 106234
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: old katy
Vehicle:
'o8 5.7 Tundra
'07 sv650s

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drees View Post
The Konis do noticeably reduce bump travel, someone had a special Koni bump stop extender that would increase bump travel by an inch or so with the Koni inserts, try searching...
here it is

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ni+bump+travel
the_poser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 01:16 PM   #15
BIGSKYWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:
09 GH B+

Default

sorry the Koni's aren't appreciably reducing bump travel- Koni's + GC sleeves will reduce travel- that's what that thread posted above is discussing (and a solution to help).

The Koni's do have rather firmish high speed compression- this was confirmed w/ a long chat w/ Koni and also my experience w/ running firmish springs w/ Konis ( a higher rate spring can get by w/ LESS high speed compression). There is a fellow on the baords from AU that had his Koni's revalved to reduce high speed compression- he was very satisfied w/ this- unfortunately cost is prohibitive IMO- the same as the cost of the struts~ $150/corner. High speed compression will "impact" ride quality- especially w/ little seams and the like.

As far as ride height if your second measurements are accurate your ~ 31mm lowering than stock front and 46mm lower in the rear. That's fairly predicatble as your running a sedan spring on a wagon.

IMO the 31mm up front is fine (that's probably as low as you'd want to go however), 46mm in the rear is too low.

A relatively simple fix if RCE wanted to make wagon specific springs is keep the fronts the same and add some free length to the rear- this is exactly what STi did w/ their WRX pink springs.

Mike
BIGSKYWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 02:22 PM   #16
drees
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Silver Wagon
Tuned with Enginuity

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
sorry the Koni's aren't appreciably reducing bump travel- Koni's + GC sleeves will reduce travel- that's what that thread posted above is discussing (and a solution to help).
I stand corrected, though having actual measurements would help verify. I forgot that the thread was really talking about the lack of bump travel with the GCs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
A relatively simple fix if RCE wanted to make wagon specific springs is keep the fronts the same and add some free length to the rear- this is exactly what STi did w/ their WRX pink springs.
I suspect you'll also find sedan owners w/wagon springs for those guys looking for the "even fender gap look" as well to account for the sedan's slightly higher cut front fenders.
drees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 04:05 PM   #17
the_poser
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 106234
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: old katy
Vehicle:
'o8 5.7 Tundra
'07 sv650s

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post

As far as ride height if your second measurements are accurate your ~ 31mm lowering than stock front and 46mm lower in the rear. That's fairly predicatble as your running a sedan spring on a wagon.

IMO the 31mm up front is fine (that's probably as low as you'd want to go however), 46mm in the rear is too low.

A relatively simple fix if RCE wanted to make wagon specific springs is keep the fronts the same and add some free length to the rear- this is exactly what STi did w/ their WRX pink springs.

Mike
what about some rear top mounts that raise by a few mm
much like the RCE camber plates that lower the front by a few, but the opposite

something like this would allow wagon owners to run sedan springs if they didn't want to mess w/camber plates, and hopefuly such an item would be less expensive than camber plates
the_poser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 04:27 PM   #18
BIGSKYWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:
09 GH B+

Default

Most plates whether camber adj or just plain pillowball will add height- on the low end 3-5mm on the higher end 8-10mm- you generally do lose some travel w/ these type of plates however
BIGSKYWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 06:37 PM   #19
drees
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Silver Wagon
Tuned with Enginuity

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
you generally do lose some travel w/ these type of plates however
While you do lose some bump travel with taller plates, you're not really losing it unless you decrease your spring free length since you're just trading bump travel for ride height.
drees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 10:41 PM   #20
BIGSKYWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:
09 GH B+

Default

If the plate increases stack height over the oe top (which most camber plates do) your losing bump travel- no?
BIGSKYWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2007, 10:51 PM   #21
Blue5spdWRXWgn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon - WRB
2005 9-2X - SGM

Default

Jounce travel is determined by the distance between the top of the strut tube (the strike plate) and the jounce bumper. Adding height to the top mount moves both the jounce bumper and the upper spring seat down relative to the strut tower, since Subarus and other vehicles with a single-path strut mount design have the upper spring seat and the jounce bumper cup integrated into a single stamping. Moving the upper seat down also moves the lower seat down an equivalent amount since the spring maintains the same length. Thus, the jounce travel is not changed.
Blue5spdWRXWgn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 10:47 AM   #22
BIGSKYWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:
09 GH B+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue5spdWRXWgn View Post
Jounce travel is determined by the distance between the top of the strut tube (the strike plate) and the jounce bumper. Adding height to the top mount moves both the jounce bumper and the upper spring seat down relative to the strut tower, since Subarus and other vehicles with a single-path strut mount design have the upper spring seat and the jounce bumper cup integrated into a single stamping. Moving the upper seat down also moves the lower seat down an equivalent amount since the spring maintains the same length. Thus, the jounce travel is not changed.
That's not my understanding. Your not moving the lower seat down it remains the same (fixed perch)- the spring has to be compressed a little bit more when adding a camber plate. A camber plate that was 5" thick and mounted under the strut tower (like almost all plates are) would seem to me to reduce travel- as would one that was 5mm thick- just not as much.



Maybe I'm missing something
BIGSKYWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 10:59 AM   #23
maxpower45
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84445
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: NC
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon

Default

Probably not the right terminology but how does the piston stroke area (tube) of the Koni compare to stock in terms of total stroke area available and relative height from the ground?
maxpower45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 02:03 PM   #24
drees
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Silver Wagon
Tuned with Enginuity

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
Maybe I'm missing something
You're missing the lower spring perch and the spring in the picture. Adding a taller tophat/plate simply raises the car up the same as adding a spring spacer would.

It does reduce the amount that the wheel can compress by the same amount as the car is raised, but it doesn't matter since you haven't changed spring rates or damping.
drees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 05:38 PM   #25
Blue5spdWRXWgn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon - WRB
2005 9-2X - SGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
That's not my understanding. Your not moving the lower seat down it remains the same (fixed perch)- the spring has to be compressed a little bit more when adding a camber plate. A camber plate that was 5" thick and mounted under the strut tower (like almost all plates are) would seem to me to reduce travel- as would one that was 5mm thick- just not as much.



Maybe I'm missing something
Sorry, I'm stuck in the vehicle design reference frame where the body is always held fixed and the ground is moved with the wheel. If you add to my statement that the wheel (and the ground) moves down with the lower spring seat, it may make more sense to you.

Your nice picture shows different amounts of strut rod in the two views, which is consistent with different spring lengths. Try adding in the upper and lower spring seats and re-drawing holding the distance between them fixed. The upper seat moves down due to the spacer, the lower moves down the same amount, the wheel and ground go accordingly. If you want to keep the ground in the same place, then the vehicle body goes up but the travel stays the same.

A spring spacer is not exactly the same thing because in that case the effective spring seat is being moved relative to the jounce bumper. This does not change the jounce travel since the strike plate is not moving relative to the jounce bumper, but the spring will see more stress because the spring length at full jounce is reduced.
Blue5spdWRXWgn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
front usdm sti springs w/ rear v7 sti wagon springs on bugeye wagon? anybody mixing? fastwrx25 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 15 04-02-2008 09:27 AM
RCE springs on STI without Group N tops? 06STIGO13 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 8 08-09-2007 10:35 AM
RCE springs on a bugeye AllAWD Brakes, Steering & Suspension 4 08-05-2007 10:45 AM
RCE springs on stock struts kennytwrx Brakes, Steering & Suspension 6 04-30-2007 03:01 PM
anyone have pics of RCE springs on 06 STI boostedsti06 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 3 12-31-2006 06:48 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.