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Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack |
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12-30-2006, 10:36 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 98802
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:2005 9-2x Black |
RCE springs on a wagon
**edit**I've been speaking with Myles and if there are at least 25 people who will buy he can run a wagon-specific spring for us with the same rates as the current STi springs. Reply below and let me know what you want for ride heights. We are discussing the ride height only, initial feedback indicates everyone wants the firmer rates. Changing the rate also complicates things to the point where it isn't easily do-able.
For reference the car is an '05 Saabaru, wheels are 16x8 et48 Rota Slipstreams, shocks are Koni inserts. Swaybars are stock 20F/16R. So far my impression is very positive. Ride is FIRM, but I like it, not harsh at all. Still playing with Koni settings. However the front has bottomed out a few times on harder edged bumps and holes. It's a bit low for my taste and the loss of travel up front is a concern, but the tradeoff is great handling. It finally feels more like my dearly departed '95 m3. I'd like another 15mm of ride height if Myles were ever to contemplate a wagon-specific offering, but other than that, so far so good. Last edited by ericd735i; 01-04-2007 at 01:11 PM. Reason: feedback |
12-30-2006, 10:57 PM | #2 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:2002 WRX Wagon - WRB 2005 9-2X - SGM |
Ouch, that thing looks low. Can you take some measurements for us? I've got a set still sitting in the box waiting to go on the car, but now you've got me concerned that the height might be just too low for me. Nice car btw.
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12-31-2006, 02:11 AM | #3 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 54202
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Elkridge, Maryland
Vehicle:ASK ABOUT NEW RCE SWAY BARS FOR STI |
Looks like the local guys car these springs. Did you do anything with the bump stop when you did the Koni swap?....those tires look very "bubbly" what size are they?..just curious.
Myles |
12-31-2006, 03:26 AM | #4 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 15505
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Vehicle:2002 JDMV8 STI Wagon |
Wow! The front bottomed out? That is scary.
What happened that the front bottomed out? With my current setup the rear has bottomed out but never the front. I guess the Konis could be the reason for the front bottoming out? I wanted to ask you to get a couple people in the back and hit some bumpy roads to see how the rear would hold up to some extra weight, since I am very concerned with the rear bottoming out. Thanks. |
12-31-2006, 09:05 AM | #5 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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Vehicle:2005 9-2x Black |
When I've hit a couple of bigger, sharp edged dips there is a solid feeling bang from the front. Nothing scary happened, just loud. One spot is where a fancy paver sidewalk crosses the asphalt near where the pic was taken, but it's a poorly paved brutal dip. I've had no rubbing at all from the rear. The bubbly tires are 225/50-16.
I did not cut the bump stops. The Koni question is interesting, I never considered losing bump travel. I went back and looked at the Koni instructions and it doesn't appear any bump would be lost, no more than a few mm anyway. Quick measurements are 13.5 front 12.5 rear. It is lower than I'd hoped, but I knew this was an experiment. So far the handling is worth it, but if Myles wants to make a spring with the same rates and more ride height I'd swap again, although I'm running out of excuses to give the wife on why I keep taking my car apart. Maybe a "high-rider" spring for wagon guys and STi guys that want closer to stock ride height? **Edit** I re-measured and it's actually closer to 14"front and 13" rear. It was late when I took the first measurements, or maybe Myles has made a spring that actually raises as it settles. Last edited by ericd735i; 12-31-2006 at 10:39 AM. Reason: Re-measured |
12-31-2006, 10:42 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
Those numbers are kinda low. It's good you're on Koni's. |
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12-31-2006, 11:44 AM | #7 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 54202
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Elkridge, Maryland
Vehicle:ASK ABOUT NEW RCE SWAY BARS FOR STI |
This is why it "appears" so low. They are very bubbly visually. Makes a difference.
As for measurements, I would do it again on concrete, or something SUPER level. Remember we have a 36,000 view, 1050 post thread on IWSTI that has about 20 pages on ride height comparisons and after a while not have realized that asphalt is the most inconsistent surface to measure or look for ride height differences on AND that most concrete isnt level either. Yes the rear is lower than desired, but no worse than JDM Pinks. I WILL SAY THIS NOW, before the responses start: These springs are intended for the 04-07 STI, so some wagon owners( we are happy they did) decided to try this out. So I am curious about the Koni side of this equation, because we dont have STI's bottoming out like you describe. I think if you are using an insert you are going to lose some travel. Prob more than a few mm, prob more like 10-15 mm. The other thing here is( and I dont know if you had STOCK prior) is that if you went from OEM to these, YES it is going to be ALOT firmer with ALOT more NVH...no way around that. This side of Ohlins fixed perch, there wont be a super firm, yet non jarring ride from a strut....but then again...thats the KONI side of the ride, not the springs. I ran Koni's and Bilsteins on all my euro cars from 1985(yes) to current and Koni ALWAYS has had a HARD initial jolt versus Bilstein has the opposite, simply by design. So your impression is spot on, these very firm springs mated to Koni's will be (IMO) more harsh than say STI struts and or Ohlins struts with the RCE springs. Oh and to be clear, since it might sound like I am mad or being defensive, I am not,...I am just clearing some things up and giving my .02 cents worth. ALOT of people dont know these things and so I am just putting it out there. Myles |
12-31-2006, 01:32 PM | #8 | |
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Vehicle:2017 Forester XT KTM 690 Duke |
Quote:
I doubt you're bottoming them out, I think it's the high speed compression damping, there's too much of it, so therfore the shocks dont move much, therfore you're feeling the "harshness" or jolt. I have the same problem, small sharp edges makes a crashing sound but the car doesnt move much. |
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01-01-2007, 02:31 AM | #9 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
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SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:2003 Silver Wagon Tuned with Enginuity |
The Konis do noticeably reduce bump travel, someone had a special Koni bump stop extender that would increase bump travel by an inch or so with the Koni inserts, try searching...
Edit: Not positive the Konis reduce bump travel by an appreciable amuont, I was thinking of the Konis + GC coil over sleeves and lack of bump travel issue. The Koni bump extender mod does work, though! Last edited by drees; 01-01-2007 at 02:25 PM. |
01-01-2007, 06:59 AM | #10 |
NASIOC Vendor
Member#: 54202
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Elkridge, Maryland
Vehicle:ASK ABOUT NEW RCE SWAY BARS FOR STI |
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01-01-2007, 07:24 AM | #11 |
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Last edited by Uncle Scotty; 01-01-2007 at 03:21 PM. |
01-01-2007, 08:50 AM | #12 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:2002 WRX Wagon - WRB 2005 9-2X - SGM |
I have a set of each (Koni inserted and stock). I'll take some measurements and get back to you. BTW, the jounce travel can easily be compared by measuring the distance from the upper strut clevis hole to the jounce bumper strike surface. If this is equal, then the jounce travel is too. The rebound travel is not as easy because you have to measure the length of fully extended strut rod, also from the strut clevis bracket mounting hole. This usually requires that the strut is removed from the car.
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01-01-2007, 11:39 AM | #13 |
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Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:2005 9-2x Black |
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01-01-2007, 10:18 AM | #14 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 106234
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: old katy
Vehicle:'o8 5.7 Tundra '07 sv650s |
Quote:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ni+bump+travel |
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01-01-2007, 01:16 PM | #15 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 7958
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:09 GH B+ |
sorry the Koni's aren't appreciably reducing bump travel- Koni's + GC sleeves will reduce travel- that's what that thread posted above is discussing (and a solution to help).
The Koni's do have rather firmish high speed compression- this was confirmed w/ a long chat w/ Koni and also my experience w/ running firmish springs w/ Konis ( a higher rate spring can get by w/ LESS high speed compression). There is a fellow on the baords from AU that had his Koni's revalved to reduce high speed compression- he was very satisfied w/ this- unfortunately cost is prohibitive IMO- the same as the cost of the struts~ $150/corner. High speed compression will "impact" ride quality- especially w/ little seams and the like. As far as ride height if your second measurements are accurate your ~ 31mm lowering than stock front and 46mm lower in the rear. That's fairly predicatble as your running a sedan spring on a wagon. IMO the 31mm up front is fine (that's probably as low as you'd want to go however), 46mm in the rear is too low. A relatively simple fix if RCE wanted to make wagon specific springs is keep the fronts the same and add some free length to the rear- this is exactly what STi did w/ their WRX pink springs. Mike |
01-01-2007, 02:22 PM | #16 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:2003 Silver Wagon Tuned with Enginuity |
Quote:
I suspect you'll also find sedan owners w/wagon springs for those guys looking for the "even fender gap look" as well to account for the sedan's slightly higher cut front fenders. |
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01-01-2007, 04:05 PM | #17 | |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Quote:
much like the RCE camber plates that lower the front by a few, but the opposite something like this would allow wagon owners to run sedan springs if they didn't want to mess w/camber plates, and hopefuly such an item would be less expensive than camber plates |
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01-01-2007, 04:27 PM | #18 |
Scooby Guru
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:09 GH B+ |
Most plates whether camber adj or just plain pillowball will add height- on the low end 3-5mm on the higher end 8-10mm- you generally do lose some travel w/ these type of plates however
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01-01-2007, 06:37 PM | #19 |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Oct 2002
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Vehicle:2003 Silver Wagon Tuned with Enginuity |
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01-01-2007, 10:41 PM | #20 |
Scooby Guru
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Plains of Eastern Montana
Vehicle:09 GH B+ |
If the plate increases stack height over the oe top (which most camber plates do) your losing bump travel- no?
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01-01-2007, 10:51 PM | #21 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 93606
Join Date: Aug 2005
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MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:2002 WRX Wagon - WRB 2005 9-2X - SGM |
Jounce travel is determined by the distance between the top of the strut tube (the strike plate) and the jounce bumper. Adding height to the top mount moves both the jounce bumper and the upper spring seat down relative to the strut tower, since Subarus and other vehicles with a single-path strut mount design have the upper spring seat and the jounce bumper cup integrated into a single stamping. Moving the upper seat down also moves the lower seat down an equivalent amount since the spring maintains the same length. Thus, the jounce travel is not changed.
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01-02-2007, 10:47 AM | #22 | |
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Quote:
Maybe I'm missing something |
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01-02-2007, 10:59 AM | #23 |
Scooby Specialist
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Vehicle:2002 WRX Wagon |
Probably not the right terminology but how does the piston stroke area (tube) of the Koni compare to stock in terms of total stroke area available and relative height from the ground?
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01-02-2007, 02:03 PM | #24 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region:
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Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:2003 Silver Wagon Tuned with Enginuity |
You're missing the lower spring perch and the spring in the picture. Adding a taller tophat/plate simply raises the car up the same as adding a spring spacer would.
It does reduce the amount that the wheel can compress by the same amount as the car is raised, but it doesn't matter since you haven't changed spring rates or damping. |
01-02-2007, 05:38 PM | #25 | |
Scooby Newbie
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:2002 WRX Wagon - WRB 2005 9-2X - SGM |
Quote:
Your nice picture shows different amounts of strut rod in the two views, which is consistent with different spring lengths. Try adding in the upper and lower spring seats and re-drawing holding the distance between them fixed. The upper seat moves down due to the spacer, the lower moves down the same amount, the wheel and ground go accordingly. If you want to keep the ground in the same place, then the vehicle body goes up but the travel stays the same. A spring spacer is not exactly the same thing because in that case the effective spring seat is being moved relative to the jounce bumper. This does not change the jounce travel since the strike plate is not moving relative to the jounce bumper, but the spring will see more stress because the spring length at full jounce is reduced. |
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