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04-07-2010, 04:42 PM | #1 |
NASIOC Vendor
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Broken OEM Oil Pickups ... Pictures
I posted this stuff a while back in the 2.5 forum, but for those of you that don't frequent that area I thought you might enjoy the read...
Lots more pictures added to the ALBUM. I also wanted to point out something I'm hearing more often lately. Some of you have been checking the oil pickup as a preventative maintenance step (great idea BTW) to prevent ever having to deal with an oil pickup failure and possibly dead motor. From what I'm hearing the before check symptoms have been little (occasional) to none. For those of you considering this I've posted a couple of pictures here to show some telltale signs that the pickup may be near the point of forming a crack, with failure soon to follow. From an 05 EJ25. Spider webing on the braze flux (area on the tube from the braze to 1/2" away from the braze). Eventually the spider webbing in the flux will start to flaking off. Here's a great picture showing the braze flux flaked away and the start of the crack. This pickup was changed as a preventative measure and he had NO symptoms that anything was wrong. Pickup was replaced with no damage to motor. This is the same pickup used on EVERY EJ25 from 2006 to current year.
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Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 10-27-2010 at 08:39 AM. |
04-07-2010, 04:43 PM | #2 |
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And a little tech background on why they happen...
I've gotten many requests for detailed information regarding the Oil Pickup, both OEM and the one I sell so I thought I'd post, what I know, for everyone to see. Specifically the questions seemed to be about the factory pickup and how/why it fails. Bear in mind this is information that has been presented to me and I am no scientist. So on to the factory pickups***8230; They are brazed assemblies (it's kind of like welding, but more like soldering with temperatures much lower than welding ~800 degrees. The braze is the gold stuff you see between the parts, see pictures here). For the braze to properly hold the metal pieces together this stuff called 'flux' is put on the areas where the braze will be applied. The flux makes sure that when the parts are heated up that the braze flows between and sticks to the metal parts properly. When operators, or machines, puts the flux on these parts to get them ready for brazing, the flux must AT LEAST cover the area that needs to be brazed together. So the application of the flux is typically quite liberal and sloppy. This application of flux and brazing seems to be done properly because I've never seen a braze joint failure. The problem is that the flux SHOULD be cleaned from the parts after the brazing process has been completed. We'll come back to this in a second. Now the tube, where the failures occur, is a simple thin (~.030") wall seam welded tube. A seam welded tube is basically a long skinny flat piece of metal that gets rolled into a tube and then welded where the ends meet. If you look at some of the pics in my link above you'll see a distinct line that runs the length of the tube. That's the weld. Welded tubing has its downside. While cheap, the weld can be the achilies heal if not done properly. When done properly a weld in low carbon steel will be harder, stronger and more brittle. In this situation it's a rougher surface too (when you look under a microscope, compared to the non-welded areas). Anytime there is an irregularity on the surface of a material with lumps, bumps, pits, etc., it creates a weakness. OK so let's get back to the braze***8230; When not removed from certain process affected areas, specifically a hardened brittle weld, it will get into any micro pock mark or pit when it's applied and heated and a chemical reaction will occur. The flux reacts with the specific metal condition of the weld (harder and pits, etc..) and will etch into the pits making them deeper... and can also make the metal more brittle too. This is what ends up weakening the tube to the point of crack formation. And the fact that it's bolted to the bottom of an engine and exposed to vibrations doesn't help either. Speaking to vibrations and engines modified with bolt-ons. Engine vibration is not as much a contributing factor as you might initially think for a few reasons. The rotating assemblies are fairly well balanced and harmonically dampened. The oil pickup is submerged in oil, and filled with oil. This dampens the engine vibrations tremendously at the pickup. Some assume the pickup is just swinging around from the engine vibrations, but forget that the pickup is also in oil and full of oil. Now where high frequency vibrations do come from is the oil pump. Typically called ***8216;high frequency pressure pulsation', these lower amplitude pulses can have a more pronounced affect because of harmonics that can build in the pickup assembly, possibly where a critical frequency may be being reached at certain RPMs (speed of the oil pump). So essentially, based on what I have experienced and learned, the OEM oil pickup failures are initiated from a chemical reaction from braze flux on the weld seam and these weakened areas are taken advantage of by oil pump induced high frequency vibrations. |
04-07-2010, 07:35 PM | #3 |
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Good info thanks for sharing. For us built motor guys do you think that cleaning the flux off a brand new OEM pick up tube could be beneficial based on your research? I know you are a vendor and you want us to buy your stuff (which is very nicely made BTW) but I am curious of your honest opinion.
Thanks |
04-07-2010, 08:19 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
For anyone that balks at the price of the Killer B oil pickup, I tell them to replace the OEM pickup with an OEM pickup every 30K miles (or sooner). From what I've seen, statistically a failure that soon is highly unprobable. |
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04-08-2010, 11:39 PM | #5 |
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I don't even understand why people are still using the stock ones in any EJ motor! I'm very shocked that Subaru hasn't addressed this a long time ago! They should get you to make all the pickups as far as i'm concerned! It would save them so much in the end..... How many motors have been fixed under warrantee because of this??
I have your pickup and i love the fact that, that's one more thing i don't have to worry about! |
04-09-2010, 01:49 AM | #6 |
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pulled this one out recently:
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04-09-2010, 01:53 AM | #7 |
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I think we've had 4 break causing spun rod bearings. I use the hell out of the killer B pickups. I install them in any engine build I do and reccomend them to everyone who is actually modding their car for power.
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04-09-2010, 11:53 AM | #8 |
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I def have a KillerBmotorsport pick up tube. Its a reassurance.
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04-09-2010, 09:05 PM | #9 | |
NASIOC Vendor
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jamal, do you mind if I add this picture to my ALBUM OF BUSTED OEM PICKUPS?
Quote:
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04-09-2010, 09:54 PM | #10 |
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sure. i think it's still sitting somewhere at the shop so maybe I'll take a picture with a real camera instead of my phone.
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04-09-2010, 10:44 PM | #11 |
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04-10-2010, 02:59 AM | #12 |
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chris Ill pm you or if you get a chance april 30th and may1st there will be a huge meet and dyno day at ar fabrication. That would be an awesome place to corner us all in one spot for answers lol
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04-10-2010, 10:08 AM | #13 |
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04-10-2010, 05:04 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
Is your time on the dyno pretty booked? |
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06-29-2010, 03:06 PM | #15 |
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Made a pickup video...
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06-29-2010, 03:53 PM | #16 |
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wish your pickups were made from stainless :/
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06-29-2010, 04:20 PM | #17 |
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Stainless would not make this a better/stronger part, in fact it has more flex to it than steel (and why types of springs are made from it) so I'm curious why you'd want it to be made from stainless?
The only benefit I can see is it won't corrode in the presence of moisture, but that should never be a problem inside the oil pan :P |
06-30-2010, 12:25 PM | #18 |
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Is this only a problem on newer EJs? And is this somehow turbo specific? I don't think I've ever seen any mention of broken oil pump pickups in the N/A forum.
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06-30-2010, 01:09 PM | #19 |
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Really rare on the older subarus. But the newer Subarus seems to have this... '05+.
I think I should put the EJ22T pick up back on. I have a brand new oil pick up with the straight bracket instead of the "S" bracket. |
06-30-2010, 01:12 PM | #20 |
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As far as I can tell, from the data I've got, it goes back to the begining of the EJ series motors in the early 90's. Since the turbo cars and n/a cars share the same part numbers for the oil pickup, it's a safe bet that they have the failures too. You'll find a lot more in the turbo/wrx forums because there are just more people online that own those cars so it seems like they have the most failures, because the are online more IMO. Dig through Legacy and Forester forums and you'll find the same issue. And if you're really bored you can find the same issue in European and Australian forums too.
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06-30-2010, 01:22 PM | #21 |
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so it's safe to say..... this is a HIT or MISS ???
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06-30-2010, 01:41 PM | #22 |
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Absolutely. I get calls from guys with over 100K miles and from guys with just over 25K. The only trend I've seen is that the older ones seem to last longer than the newer ones.
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06-30-2010, 01:54 PM | #23 |
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Where can we purchase these pickups at?
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07-01-2010, 08:12 AM | #24 |
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It doesnt happen with the WRX or 2.0l pickup , for the hybrid i went with my GC8 oil pan and pick up ,alot of people have the same setup and never heard any failure from the pickup .
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07-01-2010, 08:56 AM | #25 | |
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Quote:
If you look ONLY at this nasioc poll (LINK HERE) there are (26) 2.0 failures. Look on the European and Australian forums, where there are more online enthusiasts and the WRX has been around for 10 more years, and you'll find LOTS more. Please don't spread mis-information. And for anyone that does any performance or track driving the 04+ STi and 06+ WRX pans are a better design and much less likely to oil starve under high corner loads. |
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