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Old 03-31-2017, 08:49 PM   #51
dgoodhue
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Dealers discounting them = Subaru dealing on them. None of us are flying up to New Jersey and buying from corporate. Subaru as far as consumer, purchaser, etc, = dealer. Subaru dealers have to discount them to sell them in many cases. VW still holding at msrp or close on the R, same for the RS. I think you understand what I meant/typed.

Subaru finance is offering 2.9% on them. That's one percentage point more than the BRZ, Crosstek, or toaster Impreza and that's actually pretty damn good for performance variants. VW offers nothing like that on the R, same for Ford on the RS, nothing.
When I bought a TDI for my ex-wife, VW's standard interest rate was 2.9%. Unless it has changed since 2014, you likely can buy a Golf R with that rate. I can get ~2.5% 60 month car loans from AAA, my company credit union and lightstream. 2.9% is nothing special and likely Subaru does not subsidize a 2.9% loan. 1.9% Subaru is making less profit on the car, they are likely subsidizing those loans.

Since Subaru is seemingly not providing any incentives (or latest very little) on WRX or STI they are getting pretty much their full profit on each car sold. The Subaru dealer is not getting their full profit from MSRP, but typically most dealerships when the market have an adequate supply of cars end up at number under invoice.

Subaru has the least amount of incentives among auto manufacturers and from what I can tell the STI WRX is their least incentivized of their vehicles. Using the term 'Subaru is dealing very hard' does not add up. Consider the STI and all Subarus are all below average in terms of discounts, what would you call the average car deal?
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:18 PM   #52
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Okay kids. I'm about to flex some n00b moderator muscle here.

Enough with the dick measuring.

There will always be a faster car.
Understood, moving on.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:47 PM   #53
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Anyone should be able to get an STi for least $500 under invoice, anyhwere. I saw a super nice, white Golf R in Miami yeaterday, such a clean, understated car. I am going to go test drive one this week.
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Old 04-01-2017, 04:53 AM   #54
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does the US Spec R get the DI only E888?

Last edited by illmatic; 04-01-2017 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:03 AM   #55
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When I bought a TDI for my ex-wife, VW's standard interest rate was 2.9%. Unless it has changed since 2014, you likely can buy a Golf R with that rate. I can get ~2.5% 60 month car loans from AAA, my company credit union and lightstream. 2.9% is nothing special and likely Subaru does not subsidize a 2.9% loan. 1.9% Subaru is making less profit on the car, they are likely subsidizing those loans.

Since Subaru is seemingly not providing any incentives (or latest very little) on WRX or STI they are getting pretty much their full profit on each car sold. The Subaru dealer is not getting their full profit from MSRP, but typically most dealerships when the market have an adequate supply of cars end up at number under invoice.

Subaru has the least amount of incentives among auto manufacturers and from what I can tell the STI WRX is their least incentivized of their vehicles. Using the term 'Subaru is dealing very hard' does not add up. Consider the STI and all Subarus are all below average in terms of discounts, what would you call the average car deal?
You have it between the teeth on this one.
First, on interest rates for a performance car, a factory offered 2.9% is pretty good, across brands. Yeah I can get 1.99% on new or used via my credit union but we are talking about Subaru offered rates or really manu offered interest rates. Go to Subaru.com, VW, and Ford. You'll find that the STI has the 2.9% offered, VW and Ford offer nothing. That's it, it's that simple. Don't make an ant hill into a mountain.

Subaru dealing hard does add up, you just want to argue, and argue about it. As the post right above says, you can get cash off sticker easy. I can throw a rock and buy an STI at invoice. You can't do that with the R or RS, the main competitors. Some here have tried. I can think of the most recent example memeber in Fairbanks. R = full price, RS more, WRX or STI, cash off sticker.
And that just isn't in Alaska, that's most of the country right now. It's talked about widely in N&R, over the last 2 years. RS, sticker or +, R = msrp, STI can be had for deals. That means invoice (some may get under invoice), or just over invoice. I'm sorry this is a point of contention with you but it's the truth and pretty widely known. I don't understand why you take such offense to the truth and what people are paying. Either way this has run its' course.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:13 PM   #56
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When I bought a TDI for my ex-wife, VW's standard interest rate was 2.9%. Unless it has changed since 2014, you likely can buy a Golf R with that rate. I can get ~2.5% 60 month car loans from AAA, my company credit union and lightstream. 2.9% is nothing special and likely Subaru does not subsidize a 2.9% loan. 1.9% Subaru is making less profit on the car, they are likely subsidizing those loans.

Since Subaru is seemingly not providing any incentives (or latest very little) on WRX or STI they are getting pretty much their full profit on each car sold. The Subaru dealer is not getting their full profit from MSRP, but typically most dealerships when the market have an adequate supply of cars end up at number under invoice.

Subaru has the least amount of incentives among auto manufacturers and from what I can tell the STI WRX is their least incentivized of their vehicles. Using the term 'Subaru is dealing very hard' does not add up. Consider the STI and all Subarus are all below average in terms of discounts, what would you call the average car deal?
Good point. Subaru WRX/STi outsell the GTI/R. They do not need incentives and retain their value better.

Last edited by Straight6; 04-02-2017 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 04-01-2017, 08:58 PM   #57
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New 2018 Golf R thread, first pages, devolved into RWD V8 nonsense. Have fun with those in the rain or snow. The R would obliterate. But hey, on the internet it's always dry, sunny, and 70+ degrees
Believe it or not, people do live in areas where it rarely rains or snows and is above 50 degrees for 98% of the year.

I've also driven a RWD V8 and a FWD in rainy and snowy conditions and there's no great mystery to it as long as you have good tires and drive like a sane individual. And if you're trying to to drive at 9/10ths in those conditions, regardless of what you're driving and how many wheels are driven, you're sort of an idiot.

That's why I'd pick the GTI over the R. The R is a great car, but there's just not enough extra value in it for me to pay an extra ~$17k for it. If I was I interested in stop light battles, I'd just buy one of the mullet mobiles and call it a day.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:17 AM   #58
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I am ready upgrade to a Golf R in the next month or so, but I wish I knew for sure if we were getting the upgrades here in the US. The long-time VW guys seem to think not and will be a year or so before we get it here. If we were getting the higher HP version, it would be worth waiting a few months. I'm going put a JB4 on the car, so it may not really matter.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:04 AM   #59
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I am ready upgrade to a Golf R in the next month or so, but I wish I knew for sure if we were getting the upgrades here in the US. The long-time VW guys seem to think not and will be a year or so before we get it here. If we were getting the higher HP version, it would be worth waiting a few months. I'm going put a JB4 on the car, so it may not really matter.
You may want the 7 speed dct.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:05 AM   #60
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That's why I'd pick the GTI over the R. The R is a great car, but there's just not enough extra value in it for me to pay an extra ~$17k for it. If I was I interested in stop light battles, I'd just buy one of the mullet mobiles and call it a day.
X 2. It is also over 200 lbs lighter and comes with a LSD. Plenty of aftermarket support as well if you want to play. People have been buying them for 23 grand and at that price it is hard to justify the R over it.
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Old 04-02-2017, 10:24 AM   #61
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I agree the discountS on the GTIs are selling for stupid low money
The diesel fiasco is making vow come up with some crazy good deals
They have autobahn GTIs selling for 6k off sticker
It's crazy
They are even dealing on Touaregs
I wonder how long this will last
If they are around when my lease is up it will be hard to argue that deal
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:08 AM   #62
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You may want the 7 speed dct.
Agreed, the LED lights are nice too.
Nobody seems to know the US future though.
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:15 AM   #63
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I agree the discountS on the GTIs are selling for stupid low money
The diesel fiasco is making vow come up with some crazy good deals
They have autobahn GTIs selling for 6k off sticker
It's crazy
They are even dealing on Touaregs
I wonder how long this will last
If they are around when my lease is up it will be hard to argue that deal
there will be one in your driveway before your lease is up.
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:50 PM   #64
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I am ready upgrade to a Golf R in the next month or so, but I wish I knew for sure if we were getting the upgrades here in the US. The long-time VW guys seem to think not and will be a year or so before we get it here. If we were getting the higher HP version, it would be worth waiting a few months. I'm going put a JB4 on the car, so it may not really matter.
Canada is getting all the upgrades so it's almost a certainty that the US will. Hold off for a 2018.
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Old 04-02-2017, 04:44 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I agree the discountS on the GTIs are selling for stupid low money
The diesel fiasco is making vow come up with some crazy good deals
They have autobahn GTIs selling for 6k off sticker
It's crazy
They are even dealing on Touaregs
I wonder how long this will last
If they are around when my lease is up it will be hard to argue that deal
What kind of deal on Touaregs
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Old 04-02-2017, 05:33 PM   #66
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Last week I was seeing 6500 off Touaregs...and some impressive lease deals.
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Old 04-02-2017, 06:04 PM   #67
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Believe it or not, people do live in areas where it rarely rains or snows and is above 50 degrees for 98% of the year.

I've also driven a RWD V8 and a FWD in rainy and snowy conditions and there's no great mystery to it as long as you have good tires and drive like a sane individual. And if you're trying to to drive at 9/10ths in those conditions, regardless of what you're driving and how many wheels are driven, you're sort of an idiot.

That's why I'd pick the GTI over the R. The R is a great car, but there's just not enough extra value in it for me to pay an extra ~$17k for it. If I was I interested in stop light battles, I'd just buy one of the mullet mobiles and call it a day.
Cool. You know your geographical, and have your own reasoning. We just differ in opinion. You talk 98%, let's talk about the 2%. I don't get 2% years here. A good year, maybe I get 85%, most though.....70%. So my opinion, on those 30%, 15%, or your 2%, that 4 wheel drivetrain, ain't a 17k difference. On those days, I can not put a cost on it . On those days worth every nickel. Accel, handling, drivetrain, proper brakes, and most importantly the chasisis, costs money. My ass in on the line, as well as my occupants. Fam, friends, colleagues, k9's, whatever.

Yes, there is a tradeoff. And that tradeoff is money. It's cheaper to send power to one axle. That's why Stangs and Ros can be had at the same price. If you aren't sending power to all 4 wheels, you can get away with bigger displacement, and an extra 500 lbs. You feel it too. Or you can send power to the axle under the engine only and save some money. FWD, they can sprinkle magic pixey dust on it, revoknuckle, whatever. It'll still torque steer. Like RWD/FWD, your 2%, we just differ in opinion on what that is worth. All in, handling, drivetrain/traction, hp/tq, brakes, the sum of the parts is worth the price of admission to many. And regarding the R, there are two ways of looking at it. You see a 17k difference, that's MSRP on one and deep discounts on the other. Demand vs. supply 101. That's also on you to beat what most are paying.
And I see, having driven it, and pushed it, the best haldex system VW has done. I also see an Audi S3 hatchback for 40k. Interior is Audi, sound system in it rivals 40-60k luxo-barges. VAG hit a home run with matching engine output to chassis, to AWD, to interior, all in, sum of parts. It's a complete package. Harris drove it and preferred it over the S3. That's how good this gen is.

The habitual "cost too much" deal, in a R thread, well I'll say it is a bit fascinating. I guess the STI costs too much, buy a wrx base instead. The RS costs too much, get a Focus ST instead. ST can also be grabbed with incentives. GT350, buy a Mustang GT instead. And so on. Thank goodness these manus don't stick to that, and offer these performance awd vehicles, and they are selling. The fact that the price is what is tells you have to work hard to deal, that it is an outstanding vehicle, and worth it, or nobody would be buying it. And it would fall on the incentive sword.
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:45 AM   #68
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Cool. You know your geographical, and have your own reasoning. We just differ in opinion. You talk 98%, let's talk about the 2%. I don't get 2% years here. A good year, maybe I get 85%, most though.....70%. So my opinion, on those 30%, 15%, or your 2%, that 4 wheel drivetrain, ain't a 17k difference. On those days, I can not put a cost on it . On those days worth every nickel. Accel, handling, drivetrain, proper brakes, and most importantly the chasisis, costs money. My ass in on the line, as well as my occupants. Fam, friends, colleagues, k9's, whatever.

Yes, there is a tradeoff. And that tradeoff is money. It's cheaper to send power to one axle. That's why Stangs and Ros can be had at the same price. If you aren't sending power to all 4 wheels, you can get away with bigger displacement, and an extra 500 lbs. You feel it too. Or you can send power to the axle under the engine only and save some money. FWD, they can sprinkle magic pixey dust on it, revoknuckle, whatever. It'll still torque steer. Like RWD/FWD, your 2%, we just differ in opinion on what that is worth. All in, handling, drivetrain/traction, hp/tq, brakes, the sum of the parts is worth the price of admission to many. And regarding the R, there are two ways of looking at it. You see a 17k difference, that's MSRP on one and deep discounts on the other. Demand vs. supply 101. That's also on you to beat what most are paying.
And I see, having driven it, and pushed it, the best haldex system VW has done. I also see an Audi S3 hatchback for 40k. Interior is Audi, sound system in it rivals 40-60k luxo-barges. VAG hit a home run with matching engine output to chassis, to AWD, to interior, all in, sum of parts. It's a complete package. Harris drove it and preferred it over the S3. That's how good this gen is.

The habitual "cost too much" deal, in a R thread, well I'll say it is a bit fascinating. I guess the STI costs too much, buy a wrx base instead. The RS costs too much, get a Focus ST instead. ST can also be grabbed with incentives. GT350, buy a Mustang GT instead. And so on. Thank goodness these manus don't stick to that, and offer these performance awd vehicles, and they are selling. The fact that the price is what is tells you have to work hard to deal, that it is an outstanding vehicle, and worth it, or nobody would be buying it. And it would fall on the incentive sword.
Have you tried to deal on a R? I honestly think it's about the same as trying to deal on a GT350. There were something like 4000 Rs sold in 2015. Compare this to 5500 GT350s sold in 2016.

I don't agree with your pricing logic either. Just because VW imports just enough Rs to meet the MSRP price point doesn't mean anything other than that's its going price. $42,000. That's how VW has priced their car. It's up to us, the customer to figure out if it's worth it. Cars are not rare commodities. If you want to pay a premium for artificial scarcity, that's your choice. Don't try to dress it up as anything more than that. You know why you hear that the R costs too much? Maybe because it costs to much? It's just not special enough? Just about double the price of a GTI? That's just crazy. If the street price of a sti was double the going price of the wrx, there would be a riot here.

The most applicable comparison might be the focus. There is so much difference between the ST and the RS they might as well be completely different cars. The ST just is cool but nothing special. The RS is a hardcore car with a bespoke drivetrain directly massaged by cosworth with authentic rally/racing heritage going back decades.

Is the golf r even fielded in any semi-pro/professional racing field? Seriously, you hit on it, it's a discount Audi. It's a great car but to me, it's as special as any other mass production fun car like the GTI, S3, WRX, Mustang GT, etc.

To me, if a car doesn't have enough "special", it's not worth paying a premium for it. There are just too many good cars out there to pay out the nose for a car which isn't hitting that spot that few cars hit. After you've driven a few Lt1s, coyote 5.0s, and a straight piped v10 r8 (this car haunts me) the difference between all these hopped up econoboxs ain't that great. Just revving a voodoo brings back the feeling of that r8 in some way. Those cars all have "it". I don't see any reason why the R is worth 5 digits more than a loaded WRX. Never mind being near double the price of a PP GTI which is an excellent car. The value just isn't there unless you put a premium on a VAG product. I feel exactly the same with the sti. To be honest, the s3 doesn't even hit my radar. I'd just rather pony car/real sports car at anything above 40k even living in a place that got 14 inches of snow in April this last weekend.
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:25 AM   #69
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I had no problem finding Golf R's under MSRP when I bought mine (it was a 2016 model). Had a local dealer offering me $800 under MSRP. It comes down to where you live and how far you are willing to travel.

When I bought my R I priced out a similarly spec'd GTI/Autobahn and it was not that much difference. Dealers seem to have much deeper discounts on GTI's now and I tend to agree that the GTI is the better value if you can get it for $6K+ off sticker. That said the GTI will depreciate like a rock while the Golf R tends to hold it's value better. I think it depends where you live but if you live in a place that really values AWD, the Golf R will be in demand.
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:36 AM   #70
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I had no problem finding Golf R's under MSRP when I bought mine (it was a 2016 model). Had a local dealer offering me $800 under MSRP. It comes down to where you live and how far you are willing to travel.

When I bought my R I priced out a similarly spec'd GTI/Autobahn and it was not that much difference. Dealers seem to have much deeper discounts on GTI's now and I tend to agree that the GTI is the better value if you can get it for $6K+ off sticker. That said the GTI will depreciate like a rock while the Golf R tends to hold it's value better. I think it depends where you live but if you live in a place that really values AWD, the Golf R will be in demand.
I don't know about the R holding value any better. A 5 year old R is worth the same as a 5 year old WRX limited. It's honestly insane how much these things fall off a cliff after the warranty is up.

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Old 04-03-2017, 09:00 AM   #71
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I don't know about the R holding value any better. A 5 year old R is worth the same as a 5 year old WRX limited. It's honestly insane how much these things fall off a cliff after the warranty is up.
Yeah but compare that to a 5 year old GTI... The R still holds value better but it is not a Subaru.. But very few cars are...

I lost about $4K on my R after driving it almost 16 months. Which is not bad and basically equates to a pretty cheap lease for 16 months.

At the time I bought my R the best discounts dealers were offering GTI's was about $3500 of. Authobahns I looked at and I want to say they were around $31K or so after discount. If I would have paid $31K and drove that car 16 months I would have lost about $8-9K on trade in vs the $4K for the R. So a lot of that savings by buying a GTI vs a Golf R is wiped out.

Now if you can find GTI's for $6-7K off sticker? Then yes that is a great deal.
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:56 AM   #72
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I lost about $4K on my R after driving it almost 16 months. Which is not bad and basically equates to a pretty cheap lease for 16 months.
Not bad. I lost $2500 on my 2015 STi after driving it for almost two years. Like you said, they hold their value incredibly well.

Like some of the other folks, I think the R is a great car, but not worth the premium over the GTI. GTIs can be had for ~23K. Yes, the resale stinks, but you can build up a 300 WHP GTI with supporting brake & suspension mods for under 30K. That's alotta car for not too much cash.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:21 AM   #73
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Yeah but compare that to a 5 year old GTI... The R still holds value better but it is not a Subaru.. But very few cars are...

I lost about $4K on my R after driving it almost 16 months. Which is not bad and basically equates to a pretty cheap lease for 16 months.

At the time I bought my R the best discounts dealers were offering GTI's was about $3500 of. Authobahns I looked at and I want to say they were around $31K or so after discount. If I would have paid $31K and drove that car 16 months I would have lost about $8-9K on trade in vs the $4K for the R. So a lot of that savings by buying a GTI vs a Golf R is wiped out.

Now if you can find GTI's for $6-7K off sticker? Then yes that is a great deal.
4K after 16 months isn't bad at all if that's the legit street price used Rs are going for. My general target is about 2k/yr loss to drive a newish car and that's right there for the first few years which is surprising.

When I was shopping for cars last year, I had a 16' SE 4 door with the performance package and headlight package priced out at 25k otd with almost no negotiation. The main problem was they couldn't actually get me the car to sell me since it was close to the end of the model year. This was after jerking around with a possible R for a while too. I think I left that dealership with the promise that they'd honor their pricing for the 2017s and that they'd call me in a few months. I think I was in my wrx a month after that fiasco.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:48 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by industrial View Post
Have you tried to deal on a R? I honestly think it's about the same as trying to deal on a GT350. There were something like 4000 Rs sold in 2015. Compare this to 5500 GT350s sold in 2016.

I don't agree with your pricing logic either. Just because VW imports just enough Rs to meet the MSRP price point doesn't mean anything other than that's its going price. $42,000. That's how VW has priced their car. It's up to us, the customer to figure out if it's worth it. Cars are not rare commodities. If you want to pay a premium for artificial scarcity, that's your choice. Don't try to dress it up as anything more than that. You know why you hear that the R costs too much? Maybe because it costs to much? It's just not special enough? Just about double the price of a GTI? That's just crazy. If the street price of a sti was double the going price of the wrx, there would be a riot here.

The most applicable comparison might be the focus. There is so much difference between the ST and the RS they might as well be completely different cars. The ST just is cool but nothing special. The RS is a hardcore car with a bespoke drivetrain directly massaged by cosworth with authentic rally/racing heritage going back decades.

Is the golf r even fielded in any semi-pro/professional racing field? Seriously, you hit on it, it's a discount Audi. It's a great car but to me, it's as special as any other mass production fun car like the GTI, S3, WRX, Mustang GT, etc.

To me, if a car doesn't have enough "special", it's not worth paying a premium for it. There are just too many good cars out there to pay out the nose for a car which isn't hitting that spot that few cars hit. After you've driven a few Lt1s, coyote 5.0s, and a straight piped v10 r8 (this car haunts me) the difference between all these hopped up econoboxs ain't that great. Just revving a voodoo brings back the feeling of that r8 in some way. Those cars all have "it". I don't see any reason why the R is worth 5 digits more than a loaded WRX. Never mind being near double the price of a PP GTI which is an excellent car. The value just isn't there unless you put a premium on a VAG product. I feel exactly the same with the sti. To be honest, the s3 doesn't even hit my radar. I'd just rather pony car/real sports car at anything above 40k even living in a place that got 14 inches of snow in April this last weekend.
I'll say it again, supply and demand.

You are comparing a FWD GTI to an AWD Golf R. That's where you lost me in the first place. One vehicle has heavy incentives, the other does not.

Second, worsepricing on the RS for the consumer, same complaints. No deals, 5k adm's, etc. I bought mine for 3k under sticker. And they said it couldn't be done, everybody told me I was crazy. Multiple dealers, people online. Heavy demand, crap dealer network not budging an inch. If I wanted the R over it, believe you me, I'd have gotten one below MSRP.

Lastly, because I'm not going to address each thing, yet again, in this fruitless and pointless exchange....you are in the Golf R thread telling everyone it's not worth it, etc. Think about that for a minute. And apparently you were interested, couldn't get a deal, and are sour over it. I get it, cost doesn't match your view/opinion. I see it as an Audi R, and know the massive aftermarket gains and potential in tuning and mild bolt ons. All in, I do not agree with you, and think it's worth msrp. As a complete package of awd performance car, luxury car, etc, all in, yep. Finally, for them.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:57 AM   #75
thill
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Originally Posted by industrial View Post
4K after 16 months isn't bad at all if that's the legit street price used Rs are going for. My general target is about 2k/yr loss to drive a newish car and that's right there for the first few years which is surprising.

When I was shopping for cars last year, I had a 16' SE 4 door with the performance package and headlight package priced out at 25k otd with almost no negotiation. The main problem was they couldn't actually get me the car to sell me since it was close to the end of the model year. This was after jerking around with a possible R for a while too. I think I left that dealership with the promise that they'd honor their pricing for the 2017s and that they'd call me in a few months. I think I was in my wrx a month after that fiasco.
The $4K loss was dealer trade-in. I could have made more selling privately but with the tax trade-in incentive I came out ahead trading it in vs selling. It took me awhile to negotiate that trade-in price. My car had very low mileage (like 8K miles) was in perfect condition. The tires only had about 3.5K miles on them because I used snow tires for the winter months on their own rims. And keep in mind I live in an area with lots of snow so AWD is a premium.

I did have one Chevy dealer lowball me on the R, but he just did not understand what the car was and did not want a VW on his lot. So I moved on to another Chevy dealer. The one I traded-in too actually owns two VW dealership and they wanted my R enough to pay me well.
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