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03-26-2018, 03:36 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 434061
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: West Texas
Vehicle:2016 WRX Metallic grey |
False knock or toasted fa20dit?
I just added flex fuel to my build and my car is having fine knock learn in the 5500-6000 rpm range under knock ranging from 1.41-4 My tuner has tried everything he can but the knock is persistent. E-Tuned by Ron Watson of phatbotti tuning. If it was a tuning issue I'm confident he could have figured it out. He thinks it is false noise or a toasted cylinder.
I am wondering where I should start looking for something loose if it is false knock? Are there are common cultprates for causing false knock? My Mods are: Cobb flex fuel Dcw300c fuel pump Grimmspeed J pipe Grimmspeed TMIC Grimmspeed charge pipe Grimmspeed EBCS IAG AOS TVG delete ERG delete Invidia Q300 catback Perrin pitch stop Perrin pitch stop mount Perrin BOV STI group N trani mount Car is acting 100 percent normal, pulling hard to red line, no leaks no known issues what so ever.....except the knocking. Any suggestions or help is much appreciated.
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03-28-2018, 11:01 AM | #2 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 50902
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region:
RMIC
Location: backroads
Vehicle:98 $$$ Green |
What is your ethanol content? My tuner recently informed me that the FA20's are prone to knock, that can't be tuned out, on anything over E60 as well as 91oct.
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03-28-2018, 11:20 AM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 468117
Join Date: May 2017
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Southern Cali
Vehicle:2017 WRX DMG |
could be a bad knock sensor
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03-28-2018, 02:01 PM | #4 | |
Scooby Guru
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:2016 STI |
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can't be tuned out???????? Suggest to him dialing back peak boost and peak timing, that's a good start. There's no such thing as detonation that can't be tuned out. |
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03-28-2018, 02:24 PM | #5 |
Scooby Newbie
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what is your whp/wtq? Even on an e-tune you should know approx. #s. Does it still knock with 91/93? What is your injector duty cycle and fuel pressure when at WOT between 5500 and 6000 rpm?
Feedback knock is different then fine knock learning. Because of the e-tune and days/weeks between tune changes, you could have had a knock event that your ecu is still learning to avoid. This can take days to weeks depending no how much you drive the car and how frequently you are in that rpm range. As mentioned above, have Ron draw boost psi back down to 19 psi instead of 20 (or whatever it is tuned at) if it persists. There are a few good tuners in So Cali, Ron is one of them |
03-28-2018, 02:34 PM | #6 | |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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I stand by my tuner's word which is the FA's, which btw I don't own, can't be pushed on fuel with ethanol content above 60%. At least in stockish or 'stage II' trim. I watched him tune one in front of my car just 2 days ago... mine Last edited by umscooby; 03-28-2018 at 02:40 PM. |
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03-28-2018, 02:42 PM | #7 |
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So much fantastic misinformation here.
FA20s are as knock prone as any Subaru motor, the difference is the knock control strategy is much more active on the FAs over EJs so knock gets heard more often. EJs are about 1/8 as sensitive as FA knock monitors. Large amounts of ethanol can't be run due to limitations with the fuel pump, not because of detonation. Increased detonation from more ethanol makes so little sense it's stupid, why would more ethanol, thus a higher octane level, cause more detonation? Op: Compression test? Spark plugs? |
03-28-2018, 06:17 PM | #8 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 434061
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: West Texas
Vehicle:2016 WRX Metallic grey |
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So I am running and tuned for an E50 blend. Ron caps the power at E50. Changed the plugs at 20k, mileage at 29k currently. Before doing a compression test I decided to go through and look at everything that I had ever touched under the hood to see if I could find something to attribute the false knock to. I noticed that the clearance between my Grimmspeed charge pipe and engine had gone from very tight to actually touching the engine. At high RPM/loads I think it was vibrating and making the false knock noise. My front end got in a small fender bender a few months ago and I bet that's what did it. After I readjusted it I took the car out for some pulls....knock is completely gone. Now I need to ask Ron if we have any more room for increasing boost/timing since I found the source of the knock. It was a stressful few days as I thought about a toasted engine.....but at the same time that would mean a new IAG block for more power down the line. |
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03-28-2018, 07:30 PM | #9 | |
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Vehicle:2015 CWP WRX Flex Fuel tune by Phatron |
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03-28-2018, 09:39 PM | #10 |
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Great to hear! Put the clamp on the charge pipe close to the pipe flares (only the thickness of the hose material away). Otherwise the pipe can move until the pipe flare reaches the clamp.
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03-29-2018, 06:18 AM | #11 | |
Scooby Guru
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Location: philadelphia
Vehicle:2016 STI |
Quote:
Again, it absolutely can be tuned out, it's just you have other issues. Like Glarry said, fuel pump. There's no such thing as not being able to run more than "x" percent ethanol, or methanol, or 91 or 85 octane without detonation, it makes no sense at all and telling a customer that is kind of a cop out answer. All of those fuels have limitations in some regard operating in spark ignition engines, period. You work around those and they work fine. If you want it all and won't give up anything they don't work fine. They aren't magic. It's not a coincidence diesel guys never talk about detonation. Different ignition fundamental, totally different ballgame. We have spark ignition engines. |
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03-29-2018, 09:00 AM | #12 | |
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There is nothing wrong with seeing FKC or FLKC, lower IAM/DAM on these cars - E10 or E50 or anything in between. This is how the knock strategy is supposed to function on these econoboxes. The fine learned knock you might be seeing up north could have been learned at some point, and either a. is not indicative of any knock occuring, just showing you what KCA is being pulled up top b. needs to be learned away and might decrease c. is just a function of a larger cell to cell timing jump or is AVCS related. To tell you'd want to either trace the log against your Total Timing and/or KCA tables OR pull a Learning View (I don't think its possible to do that yet on these Hitachi-based FAxxDITs). Its sensitive (some may argue oversensitive), dynamic, fairly primitive with limited fidelity sensors, meh inputs. False knock, FKC noise, PKC doing its thing, etc. And so long as you're not seeing excessive (say >1-2 deg) FKC/FLKC under load and in boost, during WOT, etc. there is nothing to worry about, and nothing you should or can do to eliminate FKC, FLKC and PKC noise. Out of boost, low load and non-WOT FKC/FLKC can typically be ignored to, within reason and particularly if it decays away or fluctuates instead of increasing with steady throttle, RPM, Load, etc. For some reason very few people on here (and particularly those with FAxxDITs) realize that if you see no FKC, FLKC and your DAM/IAM is pegged at 1, that's not a great tune, thats a botched tuned. Disabling RC is a piece of cake, messing with FKC/FLKC activation ranges, KCA values, knock sensor sensitivity and timing enough to do so is a bad idea. On a healthy tune, especially any E10 and it doesnt matter if AKI89 or AKI93... but even E30-50 tunes, you should always see some FKC and hope to get some minor FLKC to populate the Learned Timing RAM table. If FKC and FLKC are always zero, no matter what you do... not a good sign. Last edited by Perscitus; 03-30-2018 at 04:22 PM. |
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04-05-2018, 02:30 AM | #13 |
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Stop Blaming Ron he is a Rocket Scientist, and I'm tuned by him (Astrophysicist/Comp Mathemtician) No issues here, so its clearly a problem with your car or the mods you put on it. I only get -1.41 fine knock learn at worst...
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04-05-2018, 02:35 AM | #14 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 415859
Join Date: Mar 2015
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I think the problem is your "ERG delete" next time get an EGR Delete instead.
LOL Jk its probably all the grimmspeed trash you have on it. My mods Dyno Tuned by Ron: Cobb AP Cobb Flex Fuel AEM Cai Depo Racing Catted J-Pipe + Int Pipe TGV Deletes Stock TMIC Stock BPV Stock Boost Controller 275/308 91 350/350 e52 Quote:
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04-05-2018, 09:29 AM | #15 | ||
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04-05-2018, 09:51 AM | #16 | |||
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: The Shire
Vehicle:2015 WRX CWP (sold) 2019 STi CWP |
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Got damn this forum is great some times. |
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04-05-2018, 09:57 AM | #17 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 410759
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Charleston, SC
Vehicle:2015 WRX Dark Gray |
Nice trolling. For someone so trusting in Ron's word - you neglect that he specifically lists Grimmspeed in his recommendations list.
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04-05-2018, 10:05 AM | #18 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 468117
Join Date: May 2017
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Southern Cali
Vehicle:2017 WRX DMG |
but it was the grimmspeed part that was causing problems.
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04-05-2018, 10:09 AM | #19 |
Scooby Specialist
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04-05-2018, 11:09 AM | #20 |
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Chase Engineering |
04-05-2018, 11:30 AM | #21 |
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04-05-2018, 11:37 AM | #22 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 468117
Join Date: May 2017
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SCIC
Location: Southern Cali
Vehicle:2017 WRX DMG |
fascinating gif, they are playing speed chess and that guy actually loses.
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04-05-2018, 11:41 AM | #23 | |
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04-05-2018, 11:52 AM | #24 | ||
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Chase Engineering |
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04-05-2018, 12:02 PM | #25 |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: May 2017
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