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Old 10-23-2018, 05:47 PM   #2626
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post


This seems like you're contradicting yourself. It doesn't matter....except do a road test and see higher mass flow at a lower RPM, which would decrease time to speed...all relative to starting RPM.

Did I miss something?


.
I am saying that using a dyno graph doesn't show time or real life driving situations (such as the "race" that he lost) and that actual acceleration time data, or time to boost / torque etc would be more beneficial if he was trying to show the differences between wrapped and unwrapped (all else being equal of course). It isn't normal to drive in a high gear at low rpm and then care about how quickly you would accelerate because downshifting and using more axle torque is far more beneficial, that's my point.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:06 PM   #2627
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I am saying that using a dyno graph doesn't show time or real life driving situations (such as the "race" that he lost) and that actual acceleration time data, or time to boost / torque etc would be more beneficial if he was trying to show the differences between wrapped and unwrapped (all else being equal of course). It isn't normal to drive in a high gear at low rpm and then care about how quickly you would accelerate because downshifting and using more axle torque is far more beneficial, that's my point.
It's all relative... If you wrap the headers and get an improvement you can log it, graph it, and express it as +300 rpms at spool, or you can express it as time to boost.

Either way you choose to express it clearly shows increased energy. One metric would not be improved without the other.
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:50 PM   #2628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blurred View Post
I am saying that using a dyno graph doesn't show time or real life driving situations (such as the "race" that he lost) and that actual acceleration time data, or time to boost / torque etc would be more beneficial if he was trying to show the differences between wrapped and unwrapped (all else being equal of course). It isn't normal to drive in a high gear at low rpm and then care about how quickly you would accelerate because downshifting and using more axle torque is far more beneficial, that's my point.
Ah, so you're trying to talk about transient response. The actual time it takes to spool. Yeah, I've been fussing about that for years and agree that a dyno doesn't show this at all unless you set the X axis to a time based scale.

And yes, the mechanical advantage of a lower gear is phenomimal in comparison. Also why I like the destroked engines turning 9-10k.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:27 PM   #2629
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Pretty sure yamaha and my car spool the same or very close. No reason to get a 6758 over a 7163 anymore.

his 6758, .85 AR, TMIC with ELH, Turbosmart 4 port
Mine 7163, .85 AR, FMIC with stock header, EWG.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:40 PM   #2630
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The AR is key between those two turbos. Since the 7163 isn't available in the .64 AR but the 6758 is if you want quicker spool/response the 6758 in the smaller AR wins, but will make 75ish WHP less than a 7163 at full song. The difference in AR size is roughly 400 rpm of total spool time and about .1 seconds of transient time based on data logs between two cars.

I've long said if I could get a 7163 in 64 AR I'd have done it, but in the end higher CR, TS, and shorter manifold length will solve the issue.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:50 PM   #2631
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i totally forgot you can get the 6758 in a .64 AR. that makes sense.
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:02 PM   #2632
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Pretty sure yamaha and my car spool the same or very close. No reason to get a 6758 over a 7163 anymore.

his 6758, .85 AR, TMIC with ELH, Turbosmart 4 port
Mine 7163, .85 AR, FMIC with stock header, EWG.
As detailed above:

7163 - .85 AR, FMIC with stock header, EWG, BW EBCS.




6758 - .85 AR, TMIC with ELH, Turbosmart 2-port, BW EBCS



I don't have a comparison with single AVCS on the 7163 to give a direct comparison. I got the .85 hot side as the low end torque just kills ****... I'm over 3,500 RPM whenever I want to play anyway, so the .64 was not really a benefit to me.

I originally got the 6758 to limit myself on my motor, which is just pistons and head studs. Now that I live up at high altitude, I wish I had gotten the 7163. I am actually throwing my car on the dyno on Friday, so it'll be nice to have numbers. Was supposed to have Waddlz car on the dyno too, but... DAMN YOU!


This is my 6758 running through the gears.


Last edited by yamahaSHO; 10-24-2018 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:30 PM   #2633
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lol. Don't rehash that. I'm still not happy
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:18 PM   #2634
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I typically drive in 2500-4000 rpm range as this is my daily. Losing the 400 rpms of spool would make me sad I think.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:20 AM   #2635
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YAMA- where do you plan to post your dyno results? I want to see
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:19 PM   #2636
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I'm just excited I got time to finally weld up my intercooler piping last night. Now bumper beam, downpipe and EWG pluming and I should be able to fire it up.

Really excited to compare the .64 and .85 6758 and then the .85 7163 on the same engine, same car.
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:22 PM   #2637
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I'm just excited I got time to finally weld up my intercooler piping last night. Now bumper beam, downpipe and EWG pluming and I should be able to fire it up.

Really excited to compare the .64 and .85 6758 and then the .85 7163 on the same engine, same car.
Super excited to see your car and results!
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:52 PM   #2638
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Yeah, I'm curious to see how the oddball 2.1 with the staggered OEM cams will do. Ported heads and big primary tubing will probably make it laggy. Topped off with a too large FMIC....it's a conglomerate of spare parts

Ditched the TMIC which I was originally doing because a friend talked me out of it. At least made a short hot side pipe but the hotside I'd already had made up from my GC, so just carried it over. I'll probably change it when I go to my new manifold.
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Old 10-25-2018, 06:59 PM   #2639
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Yeah, I'm curious to see how the oddball 2.1 with the staggered OEM cams will do. Ported heads and big primary tubing will probably make it laggy. Topped off with a too large FMIC....it's a conglomerate of spare parts

Ditched the TMIC which I was originally doing because a friend talked me out of it. At least made a short hot side pipe but the hotside I'd already had made up from my GC, so just carried it over. I'll probably change it when I go to my new manifold.
What's the benefit of staggered cams?

After I get my built motor in and tuned, if I'm happy with it, the plan is (because I know I won't be able to simply enjoy it ) to rotate and route the pipes super short like your hot pipe is.
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Old 10-25-2018, 08:42 PM   #2640
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YAMA- where do you plan to post your dyno results? I want to see
I can post it here. We'll see what happens and I'm curious to see how my altitude comps track since I live at 8,000 ft ASL, work at 5,500 ft ASL, and will be dyno'ing at about 1,000 ft ASL.
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Old 10-26-2018, 04:59 PM   #2641
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What's the benefit of staggered cams
Dom had turned me on to this some years back, that the longer exhaust duration was helping broaden torque curve. We did the same with great success on the TIC Time Attack Car with some custom cams.

So now I'm doing a baby version of it with a stock EJ205 intake and an EJ257 exhaust cam. We'll see how it goes. I might someday put the STi intake in for comparison; if the engine needs to come out for some reason.
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Old 10-26-2018, 07:21 PM   #2642
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I can post it here. We'll see what happens and I'm curious to see how my altitude comps track since I live at 8,000 ft ASL, work at 5,500 ft ASL, and will be dyno'ing at about 1,000 ft ASL.
Awesome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Dom had turned me on to this some years back, that the longer exhaust duration was helping broaden torque curve. We did the same with great success on the TIC Time Attack Car with some custom cams.

So now I'm doing a baby version of it with a stock EJ205 intake and an EJ257 exhaust cam. We'll see how it goes. I might someday put the STi intake in for comparison; if the engine needs to come out for some reason.
Interesting. What direction does it broaden the curve?

I'm not up to speed on cams to know if duration is applied on either side of the rotation or if longer duration would only indicate, for example, closing later (vs. open sooner).
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:03 PM   #2643
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Not quite what I was hoping for... It was a heartbreak dyno. I ran it up to 26 PSI and played with timing and this is what it got.

EFR 6758 w/.85 hot side @ 26 PSI on E85.




What I don't get... I tuned a 20G XT WRX on a stock motor with head studs a couple months ago on this dyno and at 24 PSI, and tamer timing, it did 422whp. They also said they recalibrated the dyno yesterday.

This was a 2.5XT-R on a stock long block WRX on E85 that I also did today... @21 PSI.




I really should put it on a DynoJet to get a better idea as I am more in tune with them and they are far more consistent. And, I always see stuff I wouldn't expect with a Mustang Dyno, and that can be between different cars on the same day.

Last edited by yamahaSHO; 10-31-2018 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:16 PM   #2644
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Not quite what I was hoping for... It was a heartbreak dyno. I ran it up to 25 PSI and played with timing and this is what it got.

EFR 6758 w/.85 hot side @ 25 PSI on E85.




What I don't get... I tuned a 20G XT WRX on a stock motor with head studs a couple months ago on this dyno and at 24 PSI, and tamer timing, it did 422whp. They also said they recalibrated the dyno yesterday.

This was a 2.5XT-R on a stock long block WRX on E85 that I also did today... @21 PSI.




I really should put it on a DynoJet to get a better idea as I am more in tune with them and they are far more consistent. And, I always see stuff I wouldn't expect with a Mustang Dyno, and that can be between different cars on the same day.
Did you log it or by chance log a pull after wards? I was thinking you could throw it in VD.

I wouldn't know what to expect at your altitude and with that turbo but the comparisons you threw up sure make it seem like yours is low.

I expected a pt a bit sooner.

The more I read and educate myself the more I realize how meaningless the actual dyno number really is sometimes.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:24 PM   #2645
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I do have the logs, I'll have to sit down and look at them when I get back home on Sunday. Spent all day on the dyno and then I'm road racing at the track tomorrow.

The altitude was 1,200 ft above sea level.

What is weird is that between cars, I would get odd readings. They even told me that they didn't have it calibrated correctly on one car, giving HIGHER numbers.


PT?


The 422whp car doesn't seem faster than my car, especially not 50whp faster... So... Who knows. What I do know is I gained over 40whp on the dyno today (which my car didn't feel slower than the 422whp on the before-dyno numbers). There seem to be different expectation between cars, but I won't go into that. My car is fun to drive and has great power.


EDIT: I went back and graphed some items from the log that made that graph. AFR was 12:1 (gas-referenced E85).


Last edited by yamahaSHO; 10-26-2018 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:31 PM   #2646
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Last time I was on the dyno (dyno jet) I logged my pulls and, when put into virtual Dyno on the dynojet setting I got something completely different..... Higher.

I also had to turn the boost up 2-3 psi to get my normal target boost because the dyno wasnt loading it like the street.... I assume.

PT peak torque.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:34 PM   #2647
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[quote=yamahaSHO;45825564My car is fun to drive and has great power.[/QUOTE]

That's what counts.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:37 PM   #2648
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Ah... I see PT and think Part Throttle. It's a .85 hot side.

I had to turn up my boost to hit what I hit on the street. I did some pulls on the street right before the dyno, 26 PSI. On the dyno 22... I thought the Mustang would load it better, but I thought a log of things too.

Last edited by yamahaSHO; 10-29-2018 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 10-27-2018, 04:35 AM   #2649
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300 torque @ 3500 and power holding up to the redline is a great powerband I think, dyno read differently so who cares about the numbers

I never tuned corn fuels, but I always thought it would provide bigger safety margin for more timing?
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Old 10-27-2018, 08:57 AM   #2650
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300 torque @ 3500 and power holding up to the redline is a great powerband I think, dyno read differently so who cares about the numbers

I never tuned corn fuels, but I always thought it would provide bigger safety margin for more timing?


Timing on ethanol does not involve finding knock and backing off. If you get it to knock, you are really over doing it.

Egt can tell a story, but diminishing returns are useful to watch.
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