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Old 11-10-2020, 06:49 PM   #3051
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
42 MILES PER HOUR not miles. The Prius eAWD has this setup.
The RAV4 Prime can drive roughly 40 miles as an EV.
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Old 11-11-2020, 09:00 AM   #3052
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I think paddle shifters can be helpful to vary the amount of regenerative braking.



My understanding is that there is no case that you'll lose rear drive in the Rav4 Prime. The gas engine will begin to charge the battery before reaching that point.
You don't need to vary regen via a paddle. Your right foot varies the amount of pedal travel which is directly related to the amount of braking force (think of it like driving a manual car in 1st or 2nd gear, tons of stopping power as you let off the gas/lots of acceleration torque). You get a similar experience at all times in a Tesla via the accelerator pedal.

You may not be 0% depleted, but when the dash reads "--" or "0" you are a gasoline hybrid, meaning gas engine 99% of the time and then hybrid battery when possible, but as soon as you tip in the pedal beyond a super slow crawl it goes back to gas (which only powers the front axel). In deep snow, or any type of low traction situation, we all know that you need power/torque to the wheels with grip (which could be the rears) to get you out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
42 MILES PER HOUR not miles. The Prius eAWD has this setup.
It should be miles. The battery is EV only for 42 miles. "RAV4 Prime has an impressive EPA-estimated EV Mode range rating of 42 miles if only recharging once" (Toyota website).

The EV system when charged works up "until 84mph" (C&D) and then switches on the hybrid gas engine.

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Originally Posted by DougNuts View Post
The RAV4 Prime can drive roughly 40 miles as an EV.
Yup, 42.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 11-11-2020 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 11-11-2020, 09:27 AM   #3053
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In EV only mode (RWD).
The vehicle can go up to 84mph.
The vehicle can go up to 42 miles (obviously, not at 84pmh).

In hybrid mode (AWD*).
Based on throttle input, the vehicle will attempt to be what is more efficient (RWD or AWD).
In that specific test (WOT, maximum acceleration), after 40mph they noted it was mostly the front wheels pulling the vehicle along, as the software deemed it was the most efficient way to accelerate as quickly as possible.
I'd imagine, having not tested one myself, in hybrid mode if you're being light with the pedal, it's going to remain RWD/EV most of the time, only kicking in the engine when traction is an issue, or when the battery gets to a predetermined state of discharge.

To AWD performance in the winter, and this specific AWD system. I'd wager that it's going to act primarily as a FWD vehicle, like most other systems. In a very low traction situation, where power needs to go to the rear wheels, as the engine acts as a generator as well as a propulsion source, the situations where the rear would not engage (eg. full state of discharge) are less likely than the the situations where the front would not engage (empty gas tank) as the vehicle charges itself.
Beyond which wheels are engaged, there is also the braking system which will slow or stop wheels based on wheel speed/available traction. The point of that statement is that even on ice, the system will brake wheels independently to promote traction (as well as prevent an oversteer/spin situation via SC) so even if an axle where inoperable, it could pull itself out of most reasonable situations in 2WD (but not while buried up to it's guts in a snow bank).

The only scenario I can think of in which this AWD system will be flummoxed is the same situation that any primarily computer controlled system will be flummoxed, on an inclined, smooth paved surface with a coat of ice on it where the coefficient of friction is so low that a vehicle at rest would slide down the hill. I think if you depend on the computers in that scenario, it's going to slide/roll down the hill while making angry ABS system noises if you lose forward momentum.

I'm sure there will be a roller test video in the near future that can illustrate the AWD systems capabilities.
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Old 11-11-2020, 10:05 AM   #3054
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I'd imagine, having not tested one myself, in hybrid mode if you're being light with the pedal, it's going to remain RWD/EV most of the time, only kicking in the engine when traction is an issue, or when the battery gets to a predetermined state of discharge.
Yes, it will default to EV Mode as much as possible (allowing pretty far tip in), which is how the Crosstrek PHEV works also (except the Subaru is full-time AWD as all power, gas or electric driven, goes through the center MPT a la Active AWD).

The car prefers to be in EV Mode when the battery is available. Unless I floor it, or go close to it, does the gas engine turn on when the battery is available. If it is depleted, then it goes into Hybrid Mode which is 99% engine running with little inputs from the battery as it charges and then almost immediately depletes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
To AWD performance in the winter, and this specific AWD system. I'd wager that it's going to act primarily as a FWD vehicle, like most other systems. In a very low traction situation, where power needs to go to the rear wheels, as the engine acts as a generator as well as a propulsion source, the situations where the rear would not engage (eg. full state of discharge) are less likely than the the situations where the front would not engage (empty gas tank) as the vehicle charges itself.
The rate of recharging the battery is VERY slow via gas engine generator. It takes many miles of driving to get 1 mile of EV Mode back. So, while you will get small amounts back for crawling, you won't get a substantially full pack for a long time.

The other issue is that as you recharge the battery while driving the system will almost immediately use that energy if it can. Coasting on the highway or driving under 65 mph on a local road, will again deplete the battery.

I assume it is similar to the Subaru system (which is actually a Toyota Motor 1 and a Toyota battery pack), that you need to change your system setting to "Save" or "Charge" to prevent the system from using/depleting the battery so that you can store it for future use. I do this on the highway, when the gas engine is most efficient, to allow for more local miles driven in EV mode. In the snow you would want to save the battery until you are in a low traction scenario and then revert to default EV mode, or risk being left with a FWD-biased car with little to no rear torque.

But, again, I am always AWD (continuously variable f/r distribution regardless of my power source), the Rav4 Prime would make you a truly FWD car if you set it to "Charge."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Beyond which wheels are engaged, there is also the braking system which will slow or stop wheels based on wheel speed/available traction. The point of that statement is that even on ice, the system will brake wheels independently to promote traction (as well as prevent an oversteer/spin situation via SC) so even if an axle where inoperable, it could pull itself out of most reasonable situations in 2WD (but not while buried up to it's guts in a snow bank).
Unless the fronts don't have traction and it requires the rear to push you out. This is like most FWD-biased AWD which don't have enough rear torque to move the car (as seen on roller tests).

Last edited by Snow Drift; 11-11-2020 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:23 PM   #3055
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You may not be 0% depleted, but when the dash reads "--" or "0" you are a gasoline hybrid, meaning gas engine 99% of the time and then hybrid battery when possible, but as soon as you tip in the pedal beyond a super slow crawl it goes back to gas (which only powers the front axel). In deep snow, or any type of low traction situation, we all know that you need power/torque to the wheels with grip (which could be the rears) to get you out.
That's now how I understand the system to work. I've been shopping Camry Hybrids and I'm fairly certain there is never a point that propulsion isn't going through the electrical system.

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/2021...stem-explained

Quote:
Two things are unusual about the RAV4 Prime and how it performs. First, it always uses at least some electric power when starting off. Even when the EV range is at ďzero,Ē the hybrid mode still has electric power in reserve. It never really goes so low that the vehicle does not combine electric and engine power to drive the four wheels when one starts from a stop. This means that the RAV4 Prime feels like a battery-electric vehicle in almost every scenario.
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Old 11-11-2020, 04:27 PM   #3056
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That's now how I understand the system to work. I've been shopping Camry Hybrids and I'm fairly certain there is never a point that propulsion isn't going through the electrical system.

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/2021...stem-explained
Yes, some amount of energy, but is it enough? Plenty of ICE FWD-biased systems can't send enough torque rear and the Rav4 Prime is using a small battery pack that can easily be depleted...or left with little energy stored. I'd like to see it on rollers with a pack at "0."

Here is a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, with a similar electric-only rear axel. On hard packed snow, trying to tow from a dead stop it never rotates the rears WITH A FULL BATTERY and "4WD Lock" mode. The fronts just spin and spin.

Start @ 00:04:00

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Old 11-11-2020, 08:20 PM   #3057
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Do not imagine that the AWD-e system will be good for taking a Prius rock crawling or desert racing. All-wheel-drive cars come with only a 0.2-inch increase in ground clearance over the standard Prius, to just 5.3 inches, and the all-wheel-drive system is active only under 43 mph. Its purpose is merely to improve traction and allow the Prius to pull away from a stop during slippery conditions. Slowly, of course. After the car reaches 6 mph, drive to the rear wheels switches from full-time to part-time mode and the Prius experience becomes mostly indistinguishable from the front-drive car.
So is this setup different than the Prius e-AWD?
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:12 PM   #3058
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So is this setup different than the Prius e-AWD?
The Rav4 Prime has a more powerful rear motor than the Prius AWD-e, but your point is the same.

Ok, so it took me wayyy too long to get info, since the official website and manual are silent on the topic. I had to search forums which are also confusing.

It appears that:
  • Newish Toyota Hybrid/PHEV AWD = Rear Motor turns off somewhere above 40 MPH. However, it can engage for acceleration or if fronts slip.
  • Rav4 Prime EV Mode turns off above 84 mph and engages the gas engine in Hybrid Mode.
  • Rav4 Prime Battery runs out after 42 miles (distance) of driving. Switches to Hybrid Mode.
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Old 11-16-2020, 06:42 PM   #3059
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https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/16/tesl...ng-sp-500.html
S&P 500 adding Tesla, finally.

TSLA up 13% in after hours
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Old 11-17-2020, 03:22 AM   #3060
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
In EV only mode (RWD).

[...]

I'd imagine, having not tested one myself, in hybrid mode if you're being light with the pedal, it's going to remain RWD/EV most of the time, only kicking in the engine when traction is an issue, or when the battery gets to a predetermined state of discharge.
EV mode is still going to be FWD most of the time. The rear motor is only 53hp and the Prime is 4,300lbs. The front motor (not ICE) is a 179hp unit.


Tesla found that using both front and rear axles together improved cruise efficiency, which is why the dual motors are almost standard on their cars now.

I seriously doubt, at any point, the Rav4 will use the rear motor alone (RWD).
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Old 11-17-2020, 08:03 AM   #3061
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/16/tesl...ng-sp-500.html
S&P 500 adding Tesla, finally.

TSLA up 13% in after hours
great times. I traded some shares for calls last week . I am thinking about making a few plays today we will see.
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Old 11-17-2020, 08:55 AM   #3062
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EV mode is still going to be FWD most of the time. The rear motor is only 53hp and the Prime is 4,300lbs. The front motor (not ICE) is a 179hp unit.

I seriously doubt, at any point, the Rav4 will use the rear motor alone (RWD).
Yup.

"The rear motor is primarily used to gain traction at low speeds. On a full throttle Hybrid mode start with the pavement slightly damp, there was essentially zero wheelspin and a very quick launch; but by the time we reached 40 mph the power distribution had shifted mostly or entirely to the front wheels" (GCR). https://www.greencarreports.com/news...brid-should-be

And the reality is the rear is barely used in low speeds as we saw in my video above the rears didn't move, just the fronts spun.
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Old 11-17-2020, 01:36 PM   #3063
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Despite the marketing, the Rav 4 prime is mostly economy focused, and there are significant limits to a system that relies on such a small battery.
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Old 11-18-2020, 11:59 AM   #3064
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:34 PM   #3065
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as far as Tesla service goes, the phrase that comes to mind is "rising to expectations" which is a euphemism for "failing grade"

it's still too early to buy a Tesla. 2 to 3 years from now will be a lot better, but I'd still just lease.
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:48 PM   #3066
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In terms of the Track Package... The ability to get a la carte parts would be nice but it is only sold as a package and he was just lucky to win the same rims via a reward. They should have made the rims different to prevent this.

Frankly, I don't think anyone serious about tracking or HPDE would want 20" rims, or unknown brand pads/fluid. Usually you would want a specific brand that you prefer, like Carbotech.

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as far as Tesla service goes, the phrase that comes to mind is "rising to expectations" which is a euphemism for "failing grade"

it's still too early to buy a Tesla. 2 to 3 years from now will be a lot better, but I'd still just lease.
I've had very good service at Tesla, both warranty work and seasonal tire swaps. I've used 4 different locations over 2 years, all great. They just opened a location about 10 min from me, so they are expanding.
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:50 PM   #3067
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ok, so you buy the track package, and a year later you need new pads...do you buy another track package?
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Old 11-18-2020, 01:25 PM   #3068
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ok, so you buy the track package, and a year later you need new pads...do you buy another track package?
Yes. Of course, how else could this work? (jk)

You CAN order them from Tesla direct...not sure you would want them though, $500 for the rears. Carbotech are cheaper and potentially better suited.
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Old 11-18-2020, 01:26 PM   #3069
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In terms of the Track Package... The ability to get a la carte parts would be nice but it is only sold as a package and he was just lucky to win the same rims via a reward. They should have made the rims different to prevent this.

Frankly, I don't think anyone serious about tracking or HPDE would want 20" rims, or unknown brand pads/fluid. Usually you would want a specific brand that you prefer, like Carbotech.

I've had very good service at Tesla, both warranty work and seasonal tire swaps. I've used 4 different locations over 2 years, all great. They just opened a location about 10 min from me, so they are expanding.
He wasn't trying to buy track pack specific calipers - he was trying to buy the factory offered more-aggressive brake pads, which are a wear item (and the same dimensions as the non-track pack equipped car, on his version at least).

Related example: I've got Lexus OEM "F-Sport" pads on my car, they are more aggressive than the regular/non F-sport OEM pads. My driving impression of them is that I would trust them on an auto-x or at the occasional HPDE track day. I know I can call my local dealer, or order them from a slew of dealers/outlets online and have them in a couple days at most.

Although I wouldn't run them if I were regularly tracking the car, I honestly wouldn't trust the stock braking system on most cars if I were regularly tracking them. But for the academic purposes he proposed (OEM "normal" pads vs. OEM "performance" pads at a track day) it makes sense, and I understand his frustration, I've got some examples lower.

He discussed tires as well, and since those are made by Michelin he can get them easily.

The issue with Tesla outline by EE is two fold: supply/availability and knowledgeable employees/staff.

I've had two issues with my Lexus dealer from the knowledgeable staff/employees side (albeit specific to people like me, not the normal Lexus people):
There is a business card sized keycard I want so I don't have to carry a fob, it's not available on my specific car in the USDM, but is available on other Leuxs models here, and is available for the IS in the JDM/EDM. I called my dealer and they wouldn't sell it to me, they also wouldn't attempt to program it for me, so now I'm figuring out a work around, which is going to be significantly cheaper, but involves more effort on my part; I was willing to pay for the convenience, but even giving them part numbers and attempting to hold their hand through the process was too much for their staff to cope with.
I also looked into buying the RC-F front lower control arm bushings, they are the same dimension as the IS, but have a harder/higher durometer bushing (front inner tire wear on IS350s occurs if regularly driven hard due to being too soft). The dealer has my VIN/vehicle info and they gave me difficulty when I tried to buy the parts from them, as "They won't fit your car sir" I instead hung up with them and will either be getting some online, or going with an aftermarket solution to be installed in the spring.
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Old 11-18-2020, 01:30 PM   #3070
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
He wasn't trying to buy track pack specific calipers - he was trying to buy the factory offered more-aggressive brake pads, which are a wear item (and the same dimensions as the non-track pack equipped car, on his version at least).

Related example: I've got Lexus OEM "F-Sport" pads on my car, they are more aggressive than the regular/non F-sport OEM pads. My driving impression of them is that I would trust them on an auto-x or at the occasional HPDE track day. I know I can call my local dealer, or order them from a slew of dealers/outlets online and have them in a couple days at most.

Although I wouldn't run them if I were regularly tracking the car, I honestly wouldn't trust the stock braking system on most cars if I were regularly tracking them. But for the academic purposes he proposed (OEM "normal" pads vs. OEM "performance" pads at a track day) it makes sense, and I understand his frustration, I've got some examples lower.

He discussed tires as well, and since those are made by Michelin he can get them easily.

The issue with Tesla outline by EE is two fold: supply/availability and knowledgeable employees/staff.

I've had two issues with my Lexus dealer from the knowledgeable staff/employees side (albeit specific to people like me, not the normal Lexus people):
There is a business card sized keycard I want so I don't have to carry a fob, it's not available on my specific car in the USDM, but is available on other Leuxs models here, and is available for the IS in the JDM/EDM. I called my dealer and they wouldn't sell it to me, they also wouldn't attempt to program it for me, so now I'm figuring out a work around, which is going to be significantly cheaper, but involves more effort on my part; I was willing to pay for the convenience, but even giving them part numbers and attempting to hold their hand through the process was too much for their staff to cope with.
I also looked into buying the RC-F front lower control arm bushings, they are the same dimension as the IS, but have a harder/higher durometer bushing (front inner tire wear on IS350s occurs if regularly driven hard due to being too soft). The dealer has my VIN/vehicle info and they gave me difficulty when I tried to buy the parts from them, as "They won't fit your car sir" I instead hung up with them and will either be getting some online, or going with an aftermarket solution to be installed in the spring.
I know he wants pads. I never mentioned calipers.

According to a poster on TMC, he ordered them from Tesla direct, $500 for rears.

Another issue, the Youtuber's reward rims don't come with Cup 2 tires. So he also needs different tires to recreate the "package."

I don't know yet if they are true Track pads or just more aggressive street pads. Very few people actually bought the package on the forums.
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Old 11-18-2020, 01:47 PM   #3071
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
Despite the marketing, the Rav 4 prime is mostly economy focused, and there are significant limits to a system that relies on such a small battery.
I just assumed most enthusiasts understood that "most powerful Rav4" was tongue-in-cheek... but then the YouTube comments reminded me that Zoomers are learning about cars from younger Millenials on Tik Tok... and they repeat the dumbest things.
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Old 11-18-2020, 04:33 PM   #3072
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I know he wants pads. I never mentioned calipers.

According to a poster on TMC, he ordered them from Tesla direct, $500 for rears.

Another issue, the Youtuber's reward rims don't come with Cup 2 tires. So he also needs different tires to recreate the "package."

I don't know yet if they are true Track pads or just more aggressive street pads. Very few people actually bought the package on the forums.
did he try to see if he could get the standard pads? I wonder if they had those in stock? Poor guy he couldn't go to the track
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Old 11-19-2020, 12:24 PM   #3073
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I just assumed most enthusiasts understood that "most powerful Rav4" was tongue-in-cheek... but then the YouTube comments reminded me that Zoomers are learning about cars from younger Millenials on Tik Tok... and they repeat the dumbest things.
Thank god Tesla vehicles are loaded with driver stability and control aids (with AWD options). If these features were not on the car, the model 3 with performance spec (and the S/P models) would be the next mustang exiting cars and coffee.

ďCheck out this instant torqueeeeeee omg Iím going to crash!Ē

Just like that, 5 people taken out at cars and coffee.
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Old 11-19-2020, 01:18 PM   #3074
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
did he try to see if he could get the standard pads? I wonder if they had those in stock? Poor guy he couldn't go to the track
Lol, his stock pads should be brand new. You don't use them very often.
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Old 11-19-2020, 01:49 PM   #3075
Keshav
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posting this because omg pupperz!
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