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Old 01-12-2018, 10:08 PM   #101
Homemade WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TURBOTOD View Post
What are your thoughts on this setup:

P&L Motorsports Dual 450 Hangar Setup. Full provision for OEM items, to include sensor top and float assembly:
It looks like a solid pump set up for drag cars.

Still not a surge tank, just dual hangers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
With the OEM hanger, you could probably pull off a single pump + lift + sump + sensors. Gotta remember that most of these WRC sumps were still only supplying the flow required for a restricted motor - doubling all the parts was for redundancy more than anything.
In my old set up, without the jet pump, I had a solenoid lift pump running (because it doesn't care about running dry) but that can't keep up with modern high pressure pumps. In fact I'd need to run an aftermarket lower pressure pump to keep up with a single modern pump (walbro 267 or DW400). That price just gets silly. I'm thinking a typical 'black box' check ball set up and a good single pump, maybe double.

I'd love run a good pump and a dedicated lift pump with a large column of fuel but I don't think it would keep up with most modern performance demands (time attack) or out price most surge tank guys (autox and HPDE).

Maybe I'm wrong. Working on both models now though for drop in, less light wiring, compatibility. I'll keep this thread updated.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:01 AM   #102
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I have just been thinking about this for my H6 twin turbo build. I had already (long time ago at the start of this project) decided to run a -8AN line from the tank to the FPR and a -6AN return so I modified the pump carrier with the appropriate fittings. The factory supply line in 3/8" which is the same ID as -6 (-8 being 1/2"). I also modified the factory injector rails with -6 fittings as the stock hose barb was a little restrictive, and helped to simplify the installation by having AN lines throughout (although I am using the factory supply hardline as the return with a -8 PTFE braided supply hose).

I'll be using 1000cc+ injectors and a decent multi-port regulator, again to simplify installation with the 2 fuel rails. I'm still deciding on which pump to use but Bosch, AEM and DW are all possibilities. The main challenge I am still working on is getting 2 pumps in the tank and switching them independently. I have cut the pump mounting off from a second carrier assembly and will attach this next to the original. There will be a 45 degree adaptor off the tank side of the carrier fitting to a Y-block that accepts 2x -6 inlets; these will be from the 2 pumps. The -6 return line comes through the pump carrier top plate and connects to the jet pump as normal.

On the wiring side, both pumps will be controlled by the ECU, with the 2nd pump switching based on boost, load, etc... I'll simply run a 2nd relay, wired in parallel with the original relay and run a wire to connect up with the original earth wire for the first pump which will be rerouted as the supply for the second pump. Both pumps will be grounded to the tank and the tank grounded to the chassis.

The idea behind this installation (and the build in general) is to make everything, apart from the obvious modifications, appear as factory as possible, even down to the wiring being run through factory connectors. This setup should easily support the 600hp+ I'm expecting with increased flow from the second pump with no drop in pressure.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:05 AM   #103
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Alright... Alright....

Last example of a Double-Pumper Hanger Setup, promise:

Radium Engineering










http://www.radiumauto.com/Fuel-Pump-...-2X-P1194.aspx

Configurable Double Pump Setup with Twin Walbro 450's and Hardwire kit for $1,139.85 out the door. -8 Feed and -6 Return, which is what I will be running in the car anyways. Mind you, after the build is complete it will be roughly 2 years before I plan on swapping out some suspension items and taking it to a track. At that point, I think an ATL cell, surge tank and other items would be in order.

Here's a 2010 STI with a built bottom end and basically just cams in the heads with DAVCS that is laying down 608whp and 580wtq with the same fueling setup on AEM E85 320's and ID1700's:
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=84

Thoughts?

Peace
-TurboTod

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Old 01-13-2018, 01:10 PM   #104
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I love Radium's design work, but I feel like some things are overly complicated without a good reason. For instance - using individual ring terminals rather than just a single electrical connector pass through rated for the load/chemical resistance needed. And still no surge tank! While I always prefer function over form... this applies even more to parts you'll never see.

I've made my opinion clear about the 450 pump, as well. These small form factor pumps that this hanger supports would not be my first choice in an application that needed more fuel than the stock hanger could handle considering the MSI kit will handle the AEM 400LPH, and that pump will take you a LOOONG way.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:58 PM   #105
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Iíve got the Radium triple surge but with only two Wally 450s. I think they are the newer designed 450s

20-0138-02 MPFST, Dual Walbro F90000274 E85, Pumps Included

There is a DW 65c in the tank that replaced the OEM pump.

I originally was going to install a Radium dual 450 in tank system, but I was hearing some stories regarding vapor lock, so I aborted and went with the surge tank....wasnít my preferred way to go, but I feel better about it.
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:58 AM   #106
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Yeah, I've seen the Radium option in person. I also think it has a lot of complexities and has a very small surge tank. Still a decent option for guys wanting dual pumps and doing some corner work.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:02 AM   #107
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...app picture loading learning curve. Forgive my noob move.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:16 AM   #108
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That Radium unit doesn't look very well thought out at all I'm afraid. It doesn't appear to be particularly user-serviceable with the crimp clamps on the hoses for example, half of it is over-designed/over-engineered (read: heavy) whilst the other half looks a lot like an after-thought with the simple cable-ties and cheap electrical connector, the pump out is facing the wrong direction with no AN fittings, and what is with the individual electrical connections? Why not use a Deutsch MS bulkhead connector with the appropriate pin-map? Sorry but it just doesn't appeal to me... Those fabricated WRC integrated units look proper pukka though!
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:35 AM   #109
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This is the set up I'm working on at the moment...









Work in progress, waiting on some fittings I want to try.

Last edited by Legacy_H6TT; 02-09-2018 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 01-15-2018, 09:00 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy_H6TT View Post
That Radium unit doesn't look very well thought out at all I'm afraid. It doesn't appear to be particularly user-serviceable with the crimp clamps on the hoses for example, half of it is over-designed/over-engineered (read: heavy) whilst the other half looks a lot like an after-thought with the simple cable-ties and cheap electrical connector, the pump out is facing the wrong direction with no AN fittings, and what is with the individual electrical connections? Why not use a Deutsch MS bulkhead connector with the appropriate pin-map? Sorry but it just doesn't appeal to me... Those fabricated WRC integrated units look proper pukka though!
I'll agree largely.

However those Deutsch MS bulkhead fittings aren't cheap (literally would cost half of what the entire Radium unit costs). That's why they went cheap. It's also why I've been looking for so long, literally off and on throughout the years, to find an affordable and not rinky-dink bulkhead connector.

Making parts for the aftermarket these days usually equals making it for bottom dollar, which is sad.

I'm trying to find a balance for my revised personal surge tank. Need more juice than that OEM fitting will allow
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:50 PM   #111
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Quick question for all the fuel system gurus. ..once fully installed how do u test for leaks ?
Can u push air into the fuel line that stars from the fuel pump ?
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:10 PM   #112
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Prime the fuel pump to build pressure, check for leaks, none found, start car,.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:30 PM   #113
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I was about to drop coin on the Radium dual pump hangar. I'll let you know how it goes. I guess I'm the only one who prefers the bolted electrical connectors. My plan was to run one pump via a aftermarket FPC and trigger the second pump via my Link ECU based on IDC with failsafes to turn on both pumps if diff fuel pressure drops.

That hangar also gives you the option of running the factory style quick disconnect fittings or for AN fittings on top.

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Old 01-18-2018, 11:41 PM   #114
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I've been thinking through the various methods for 6 pins (can shoe horn a 10 awg) to power the fuel level sensor, the temp sensor and more than one pump for my set up.

I was thinking one low pressure scavenge pump and the 10 awg numbers I'm seeing from my contact at DW, I'm thinking a single DW400 is all that 95% of Subaru owners would ever need.

The beauty of this being that a single pump can still be run by the fuel pump controller. No extra wiring complications, no extra pump.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:25 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
I was about to drop coin on the Radium dual pump hangar. I'll let you know how it goes. I guess I'm the only one who prefers the bolnu justted electrical connectors. My plan was to run one pump via a aftermarket FPC and trigger the second pump via my Link ECU based on IDC with failsafes to turn on both pumps if diff fuel pressure drops.



That hangar also gives you the option of running the factory style quick disconnect fittings or for AN fittings on top.


I installed a Radium dual hanger this fall and can vouch for it being a great unit. Ran it on one pump for a month until it was storage time, now the second pump is in and awaiting a tune with bigger injectors/Haltech elite 2500.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:42 AM   #116
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yinz got me thinking again. I ran some simple numbers and maxing out 950's at 80psi nets me about 228lph of required flow. My wally 450 flows that by the a good margin. Really dont want to overcomplicate it with snazzy units and double pumpers. I just need a pump that delivers a reliable 300 lph at 80psi

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Old 01-22-2018, 06:22 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by no694terry View Post
yinz got me thinking again. I ran some simple numbers and maxing out 950's at 80psi nets me about 228lph of required flow. My wally 450 flows that by the a good margin. Really dont want to overcomplicate it with snazzy units and double pumpers. I just need a pump that delivers a reliable 300 lph at 80psi

Why do you need such high fuel pressure, what kinda cylinder pressures are you seeing?
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:34 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Legacy_H6TT View Post
Why do you need such high fuel pressure, what kinda cylinder pressures are you seeing?
Cylinder pressure, it's not a DIT. But I run 4 bar base to squeeze a few more cc from my 950's. Waiting for an awesome deal on some 1200/1300's
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Old 01-23-2018, 04:17 AM   #119
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Well 60psi isn't outrageous for a tuned engine, but when you mentioned 80+psi I wondered if you were running some trick late model FB setup!! But yeah, larger injectors are always a good idea if you can live with the reduced idle performance and low speed driveability, or if you can lower the duty cycle sufficiently... I'll be running 1000cc units as a happy medium.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:17 AM   #120
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idle issues can be avoided with good injectors. They need to be quick. 1000's at a 800rpm idle are probably fire around .6ms on gas, .7ish on e85. A lot of injectors will say min pulse is like 1.0ms but ive run them lower without missing. SIDE feeds struggle with low pulse widths, one reason people upgrade to top feeds. I rather tune my car properlay, than bump to idle rpm to 1000 as a bandaids

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Old 01-23-2018, 02:03 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no694terry View Post
idle issues can be avoided with good injectors. They need to be quick. 1000's at a 800rpm idle are probably fire around .6ms on gas, .7ish on e85. A lot of injectors will say min pulse is like 1.0ms but ive run them lower without missing. Top feeds struggle with low pulse widths, one reason people upgrade to top feeds. I rather tune my car properlay, than bump to idle rpm to 1000 as a bandais
Good small IPW data is more important than 'good' injectors. Even crappy injectors can be made to idle if you characterize them well at low IPW *and* they have consistent behavior (consistency usually relies on the injectors being clean and not having cap damage - such as burred/drilled-out/removed caps).

The process of using this data is called small IPW linearization. This data and understanding how to use it is why you can run 1200 cc injectors on a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder now, when this would be unheard of in the early-90's. Injectors have gotten a little better but the level on control offered by the ECU is where we've really improved.

In other words - you can use the 'best' injectors in the world but without ACCURATE small IPW data, you will not be able to idle well as you'll be limited to the lowest linear point on the IPW vs. fuel volume curve. Try to go below this point and you'll be entirely guessing and end up with a really wonky fuel map. This is only exacerbated by using increasingly large injectors as the lower linear limiting point continues to rise.
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:22 PM   #122
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...Top feeds struggle with low pulse widths, one reason people upgrade to top feeds. I rather tune my car properlay, than bump to idle rpm to 1000 as a bandais
You mean side feeds struggle with low PW's...? The architecture for the EZ30 is top feeds, so no issues there.

I'm wondering if increasing the injector voltage and/or current would eliminate the possibility of missing at low PW's? It wouldn't take much to implement a pull-up resistor pack, or if you were to build a Microsquirt you could incorporate some overdrive for the injectors in that.
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Old 02-04-2018, 07:43 AM   #123
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You mean side feeds struggle with low PW's...? The architecture for the EZ30 is top feeds, so no issues there.

I'm wondering if increasing the injector voltage and/or current would eliminate the possibility of missing at low PW's? It wouldn't take much to implement a pull-up resistor pack, or if you were to build a Microsquirt you could incorporate some overdrive for the injectors in that.
Yes I meant side feeds. Sorry. Most charts do show a decrease in latency as voltage rises but at some point I think you would be hurting coil or getting unpredicrtable
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:04 AM   #124
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Honestly, you'll have a much easier time just converting to top feeds than trying to make side feeds perform as well.
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Old 02-05-2018, 01:25 PM   #125
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What saturn said. And you want parallel on the EZ30 too.
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