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Old 08-12-2022, 01:16 PM   #1026
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Savage geese guys (along with Cammisa) are continuing their dominance of sports car journalism in the modern era.

Seems like the missed the mark with the upper trim Z, I think they will sell a metric ass ton of the lower trim version and makes sense at 40k.

Loved the end as well with the GR. Its the best looking car of the group, dirt cheap, kids seats in the back. Really a lovely sports car for the masses.
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:16 PM   #1027
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Edit: Trying to get my post count up i guess
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:22 PM   #1028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Miata's take boost fairly well with proper supporting mods and the aftermarket support is endless (and usually cheaper than brz).

Here is my personal take on the Z. Is it a decent value given where it slides in price wise? Sure. But I think ultimately people will keep it short term due to its abundant shortcomings. If I remember correctly, the performance version of the Z is almost $52k with the Supra 3.0 starting at $54k. I'd take a base 3.0 Supra over a performance Z and for $4-5k more you're into a premium.


I just feel like Nissan half assed this vehicle so hard that it's a rather sad way to send off what is likely the last ICE variant of an iconic Z car. Maybe a model refresh will bring dramatic changes but I'm highly doubtful.
I'm the furthest thing from a Nissan fan but I'm not sure if Nissan half-assed it. The bean counters surely did but the people tasked with developing the the car likely did the best they could with the budget limitations they were provided. It's pretty clear any money they had went into the new sheetmetal and interior bits with little left to do anything more than grab parts from the 370Z and Infiniti bins to make this car. The fact that it overheats on track and only performs well with 93+ octane is telling that they didn't even have the budget to touch the engine.
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:42 PM   #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
I'm the furthest thing from a Nissan fan but I'm not sure if Nissan half-assed it. The bean counters surely did but the people tasked with developing the the car likely did the best they could with the budget limitations they were provided. It's pretty clear any money they had went into the new sheetmetal and interior bits with little left to do anything more than grab parts from the 370Z and Infiniti bins to make this car. The fact that it overheats on track and only performs well with 93+ octane is telling that they didn't even have the budget to touch the engine.
No, Nissan half assed it and the bean counters are part of Nissan. When I say Nissan half assed it, they (bean counters and all) didn’t go all in with funding development appropriately and thus simply created a “meh, good enough” vehicle. Executives could have allocated decent cash and made this thing amazing, but they didn’t. Therefore Nissan and everyone involved delivered a half assed Z.
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:48 PM   #1030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Miata's take boost fairly well with proper supporting mods and the aftermarket support is endless (and usually cheaper than brz).

Here is my personal take on the Z. Is it a decent value given where it slides in price wise? Sure. But I think ultimately people will keep it short term due to its abundant shortcomings. If I remember correctly, the performance version of the Z is almost $52k with the Supra 3.0 starting at $54k. I'd take a base 3.0 Supra over a performance Z and for $4-5k more you're into a premium.


I just feel like Nissan half assed this vehicle so hard that it's a rather sad way to send off what is likely the last ICE variant of an iconic Z car. Maybe a model refresh will bring dramatic changes but I'm highly doubtful.

My point is with a BRZ or Miata your not a downpipe and tune away from putting up big numbers. You have to first add a turbo and/or supercharger. And maybe your handy and can do this yourself, or maybe you looking spending a lot more to hire a reputable shop to do it. It adds up. I briefly looked into a turbo package on 13 BRZ and to have a reputable shop do it started at $10K. And that did not include supporting mods like new wheels, tires, brakes, etc once you add more power. At that point I decided to sell the car, as it just was not a good motor to build from and now your definitely in SS1LE and Mustang GT with proper suspension and ties category (and cheaper).
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Old 08-12-2022, 01:56 PM   #1031
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I really liked Savageeeses videos on his 13 FR-S when he added boost and supporting mods. He didn't sugarcoat it and his eventual came to the conclusion that if you want a fast car, this just wasn't it. There are just much better cars to start with.

If I am buying a Miata and or BRZ/86 (which I have owned both) it's just my mindset. It's going to be an awesome and inexpensive handling car but it's going to be slow.

For $40-50K there are a ton of options.
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Old 08-12-2022, 02:17 PM   #1032
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I'll agree that the Miata and brz/frs is not a car intended to go fast which is why I've never had an urge to buy and build one. I would however buy a used spec Miata for a track car. Cheap, fun, no shortage of parts.

I'm also at the point where whatever fun car o buy better be 90-95% of what I want out of the box. At most, I'm willing to do catted downpipe and tune with suspension and wheels. So basically M2C or Supra for me
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Old 08-12-2022, 02:17 PM   #1033
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Damn double post Friday.
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Old 08-12-2022, 02:41 PM   #1034
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Dude, WTF? Not sure where this comment came from or why it was warranted. It’s comments like this that have had you banned from other sites and put on time out here.

It would be like me saying “the gt3 RS is one hell of an amazing track car” only for you to fire back with “how would you know? You’ve never tracked one.”

We knows these things from the countless articles and others experiences. I don’t see the need to be brash and attack him for his comment. This site is suppose to be enjoyable with rather like minded people who have a passion for cars. Let’s try to keep it that way.
He attacked first, second, third, fourth, you just didn’t see it. Not the first time. He’s been doing it for weeks and months, antagonizing. I don’t and haven’t seen anything done about that, nothing. View post history and see how many times this lame deal has been going on. Spend a few minutes and view post history, you’ll see it repeated ad nauseam. Proof is there. One thing is a breeze in the wind, another is the paddle. If you say so.

Nobody got called a name and no lies were told. The truth was stated however. Truth isn’t an attack. Reality isn’t an attack. Regurgitation isn’t experience either. And “sites”? You mean the single one, there is no plural, and it’s because people don’t like your opinion so you are banned? Or how someone said @$$ or some mild curse word in a few sentences and they state “cursing” as means while people cuss all day on that deal to this day. Hypocrisy lives in spades there. If there is one thing people don’t like hearing it’s the truth. They hate it.

So someone comes at me for months with this deal, trying to be all sly with it. I make a truthful comment, and I’m the bad guy. All I can say is he drew first blood not me. I’ll never just sit by and just take it. They are trying to be sly, coy, and I replay with some truth and have to read this.
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Old 08-12-2022, 03:03 PM   #1035
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Every post since Day 1 always reminds me of this:

Anyway, looking at the times Savagegeese put down at the track, the GR86 is only about 3 seconds behind the Supra. Obviously (*sly comment eminent* to most of us, but not all of us), if the stakes were high then you wouldn't choose the GR86 as your winning track car for comparing apples to oranges. But for something fun on the weekends, I've HEARD it's a great option, and 3 seconds difference is still plenty fun.

I mean, I wouldn't know anything about that despite owning a Twin and clocking over 100k across the entire North American continent, but it's okay. Some have more realistic standards than others.
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Old 08-12-2022, 04:15 PM   #1036
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I got the same thing from geese's video. No shame in not stepping up into Surpa/Z territory. The BRZ/86 are adequate if you don't mind fewer horses.

That's my planned next car purchase unless some other car (GR Corolla?) seems like a better buy by the time my wife's car is paid off.
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Old 08-12-2022, 09:51 PM   #1037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
I'll agree that the Miata and brz/frs is not a car intended to go fast which is why I've never had an urge to buy and build one. I would however buy a used spec Miata for a track car. Cheap, fun, no shortage of parts.

I'm also at the point where whatever fun car o buy better be 90-95% of what I want out of the box. At most, I'm willing to do catted downpipe and tune with suspension and wheels. So basically M2C or Supra for me
I will always have a spot in my heart for a NA miata with a boss frog conversion. I can't help but want one and will someday have to find a Junk yard dog to do the conversion on.
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:35 AM   #1038
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I feel like if Nissan could have brought the prices down by 5k this would have been a no brainer. At 40k to start you just end up fighting with better designed platforms that make just as much power.


Honestly it doesn't matter as the dealers will just mark them up like crazy. It's frustrating because I finally have the "good job" and the parking lot is full of cars more expensive than these, and I still can't justify even a GR86 despite slashing my debt literally in half since the beginning of the year, and getting a better paying job. Simply because GR86s are marked up 30-40%.
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Old 08-14-2022, 05:34 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by ptclaus98 View Post
I feel like if Nissan could have brought the prices down by 5k this would have been a no brainer. At 40k to start you just end up fighting with better designed platforms that make just as much power.


Honestly it doesn't matter as the dealers will just mark them up like crazy. It's frustrating because I finally have the "good job" and the parking lot is full of cars more expensive than these, and I still can't justify even a GR86 despite slashing my debt literally in half since the beginning of the year, and getting a better paying job. Simply because GR86s are marked up 30-40%.
Pay off debt
Have 6 months reserves in the bank
Invest in assets that generate wealth
Worry about a second fun vehicle after those steps or forever be stuck in the rat race of life.
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Old 08-15-2022, 09:18 AM   #1040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptclaus98 View Post
I feel like if Nissan could have brought the prices down by 5k this would have been a no brainer. At 40k to start you just end up fighting with better designed platforms that make just as much power.


Honestly it doesn't matter as the dealers will just mark them up like crazy. It's frustrating because I finally have the "good job" and the parking lot is full of cars more expensive than these, and I still can't justify even a GR86 despite slashing my debt literally in half since the beginning of the year, and getting a better paying job. Simply because GR86s are marked up 30-40%.
Expand your search radius. There are MSRP only dealers near me but you need to put down a deposit and wait.
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Old 08-23-2022, 10:12 PM   #1041
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Default 2023 Nissan Z vs. 2022 Ford Mustang

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023...re-comparison/



2023 Nissan Z vs. 2022 Ford Mustang: Specs, Feature, and Performance Showdown
Which comes out on top, and why? The answer might surprise you.

Quote:


At first blush, this shouldn't be a close battle, considering the 2022 Ford Mustang powered by the latest 5.0 liter V-8 is going to bat against the Nissan Z's 3.0 liter twin-turbo V-6. Technology and materials have transformed both of these cars, making the competition between them closer than you might expect. Let's closely examine their specs and test results to see how the two sports cars stack up—with plenty of surprises along the way.
Powerplants

2023 Nissan Z VS 2022 Ford Mustang 10
f
Ever since the Z33 generation, the Z car has been powered by a naturally aspirated VQ-series V-6. Now the RZ34 (because this is an evolution of the Z34 chassis) also has a V-6, but it's going back to its boosted roots with the 400-hp, 350 lb-ft of torque VR30DDTT that displaces 3.0 liters. While displacement is down, the new Z engine gains two turbos and 68 hp over the non-NISMO 370Z and around 50 hp over the NISMO version.

The 2022 Mustang, on the other hand, has three different engines. The base engine is the EcoBoost 2.3-liter turbo I-4 making 310 hp and 350 lb-ft of torque. The next step is the GT with its 5.0-liter Coyote V-8 producing 460 hp and 420 lb-ft of torque. Finally, there's a massive step-up in power from the Shelby GT500, with its Predator 5.2-liter supercharged V-8. For the sake of this comparison, we're going to stick with the GT and its 5.0-liter V-8, as the Mustang GT and the Nissan Z are both around the $40,000 mark.

The Mustang should have the advantage in the power department with its 460 hp and 420 lb-ft of torque besting the 400 hp and 350 lb-ft of torque of the Nissan Z. But this is a sports car comparison, not just a drag race, and there is more to this story than raw power.

2023 Nissan Z
2022 Ford Mustang GT
3.0 L VR30DDTT Twin Turbo V-6
5.0 L Coyote V-8
400 HP 460 HP
350 Lb-Ft 420 Lb-Ft
Transmission And Final Drive Ratio


Since 2018, the Mustang GT comes from the factory with an updated version of the Getrag MT82 six-speed manual transmission (the MT82-D4). This allowed Ford to up the power of the 5.0 liter V-8 from the 2017's 435 hp and 400 lb-ft of torque to its current 460 hp and 420 lb-ft of torque. Optionally, if you're not into rowing your own gears, you can get Ford's 10R80 10-speed automatic transmission, which comes with a set of paddle shifters to bump your own gears without removing your hands from the steering wheel. For its final drive ratio, you get the choice of a 3.31:1 with the standard 10-speed auto, 3.55:1 with the manual six-speed, or 3.73:1 with the Performance Package GT in either automatic or manual.

The 2023 Z returns with its FS6R31A six-speed manual that's been in use since the Z33 but updated for the new VR30DDTT. The Jatco automatic transmission has changed to the nine speed JR913E and is capable of being shifted manually with a set of paddles behind the steering wheel, just like the Mustang GT. Unlike the Mustang, the Z rear gear ratio doesn't change between the manual and automatic, but instead changes between the Sport and Performance trims. The Sport trim comes with a 3.538:1 while the Performance comes in with a 3.133:1 ratio.
2023 Nissan Z
2022 Ford Mustang GT
Manual/Auto Gears 6 Speed/9 Speed
6 Speed/10 Speed
Final Drive Ratio Option 1 3.133:1
3.31:1 (Auto Only)
Final Drive Ratio Option 2 3.358:1
3.55:1 (Manual Only)
Show All
When it comes to acceleration, the combined first gear of each manual and ring gear ratios gives the Z Sport trim a 7.333:1 ratio, while the Mustang GT Performance Pack gets a 6.967:1 ratio. This is reflected in the Z's 0-60 mph time of 4.3 seconds against the 4.4 seconds the V-8 GT took to get to the same speed despite having a higher torque rating.

In the quarter mile, the Z ran a 13.7 second time at 107.6 mph under our testing while the Mustang's power finally shines through with its 12.6 second run at 113.5 mph. In looking at our testing notes between each car, you can see that the Z quickly begins to run out of steam past 60 mph. By 100 mph, it's one second behind the Mustang and just a bit more than a second by the end of the quarter mile.


At the same time, however, we can't ignore the automatic version of either car. Here, having one extra gear means that the Mustang GT's V-8 can stay in its powerband much better than the nine-speed Z. While we don't have a test figure for the automatic Z, the 0-60 of the automatic Z is theoretically a half second slower than the 10-speed automatic Ford Mustang GT with its 3.9 second as tested 0-60 sprint. We won't theorize the quarter mile time for the auto Z, but the Mustang GT was capable of a 12.1 at 118.8 mph, a half second and 3.7 mph faster than the manual Mustang and. It really shows that 10 can be greater than six, at least when it comes to straight line speed and dead-stop acceleration.


0-60 MPH Quarter Mile
2023 Nissan Z (Manual) 4.3 seconds
12.9 at 107.6 mph
2022 Ford Mustang GT (Manual) 4.4 seconds
12.6 at 115.2 mph
2022 Ford Mustang GT (Performance Pack Manual) 4.3 seconds
12.6 at 113.5 mph
Show All


Weight
The Mustang GT's 460-hp V-8 needs to push around 3,705 pounds, giving it a weight-to-power ratio of 8.05 pounds per horsepower. The Z, on the other hand, weighs in at 3,486 pounds (219 pounds less than the Mustang) and with 400 hp on tap, so its weight-to-power ratio is 8.715:1. This means, despite weighing less than the GT, the Z has an inferior weight-to-power ratio, and it relies on its mechanical advantage of that 7.333 total first gear ratio to get it rolling faster than the Mustang from a dead stop. Once rolling, however, the Mustang's better weight-to-power ratio starts to give it an advantage once it crosses the quarter mile point.

2023 Nissan Z
2022 Ford Mustang GT
3,486 lbs (Sport Manual)
3,829 lbs (Performance Pack)
3,549 lbs (Sport Auto) 3,860 lbs (Auto)
3,597 lbs (Performance Manual)
3,863 lbs (Manual)
Show All

Handling

Where that weight does start to play a huge factor is handling. For our comparison, we'll look at the lateral acceleration (the skidpad), our figure-eight test (in both time and average G-forces), and the distance each vehicle takes to get stopped from 60 mph.

The surprise winner here is the Mustang GT Performance Pack manual; despite its heft, it pulled a better skidpad number and was also able to pull a better figure-eight time and average G-force. Driving in a steady circle, the Mustang GT Performance Pack pulls a 1.06g figure while the Z in Performance trim manages a 0.96g. Going into our figure-eight course, the Mustang GT Performance Pack completed it with a time of 23.6 seconds with a 0.86g average. The Z is slower and its lower skidpad number also shows here, finishing the figure-eight in 25 seconds with a 0.75g average. Even the non-Performance Pack (1.00g skidpad and a figure-eight of 24 seconds with a 0.83g average) and the automatic Mustang GT (0.97g skidpad figure and a figure-eight of 23.9 seconds with a 0.84g average) outperform the Z Performance.

2023 Nissan Z VS 2022 Ford Mustang 3
filterSEE ALL 90 PHOTOS

Even more shocking is the distance each vehicle took to stop. Starting at 60 mph, the shortest distance was 94 feet and performed by the Mustang GT Performance Pack. Tied for the second best are the normal GT and the automatic versions at 104 feet, then comes the Nissan Z Performance at 111 feet.

The Mustang also takes the sprint to 100 mph and back down to 0 mph handily. The quickest 0-100-0 time goes to the Mustang GT automatic at 12.7 seconds, followed by the GT Performance Pack in 13.3 and the regular GT at 13.6. The Nissan Z Performance, slower both to 100 mph and taking longer to brake to 0 mph, took a full 15 seconds.

Given the Z's weight advantage of between 266 pounds to 232 pounds lighter than each variant of the Mustang GT, you wouldn't necessarily predict this on paper. Unfortunately for Z car fans, testing doesn't lie and the winner here is clearly the Mustang GT, rowing your own gears or not.


Handling Figure Eight Skid Pad 60-0
2023 Nissan Z 25.0 at 0.75g 0.92g 111 ft
2022 Ford Mustang GT (Auto) 23.88 at 0.84g 0.97g 104 ft
2022 Ford Mustang GT (Manual) 23.95 at 0.83g 1.00g 104 ft
Show All
Technology




Depending on what your focus is, the technology packed in each car is roughly equal. Both offer intelligent LED lighting that includes automatic high beam headlights, pedestrian safety features (including automatic emergency braking), driving assists, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto and more as standard items. However, the Z offers adaptive cruise control as standard; this is an option on the Mustang GT.

The Mustang also features two USB-A ports but the Nissan Z offers one USB-A and one USB-C, so depending on needs this could be a win for the Z. Finally, for infotainment, the Z offers a standard 8.0- inch display that comes with Apple CarPlay and Android Auto as standard while the Performance trim gets a 9.0-inch display and that comes with navigation as standard standard. To get navigation on the Mustang GT, you need to option for the "High Package" that comes with an 8.0-inch display with Ford's Sync 3, otherwise, the standard GT comes with a 4.2-inch radio display. This lack of standard tech gives the Z an edge over the Mustang GT.


Racy Features

With these being sports cars, both the Z and the Mustang GT offer some racer focused features. Both cars come with rev-matching as standard on their manual transmission versions and both automatics come with paddle shifters. An interesting feature on the automatic version of the Nissan Z is its downshift rev matching, giving the feel of a performance automatic in the same vein as the DCT transmission in the GT-R, though it is a completely different shifting experience.

Above the infotainment screen are a set of three gauges for turbo boost, turbine speed, and a voltmeter to monitor those vitals on the Z along with a standard drive computer that comes with a functional G-meter. Another added bonus for the manual transmission Z is its programmable upshift indicator light.
In order to get the fun features of the GT, you need the High Package once again or just go with the GT Premium package, which gives you the five selectable drive modes that includes "Drag Mode." Within that mode, you get the Line Lock, timers, brake performance, launch control, and track apps. With either, you also get Sync 3 as part of those packages, so you get the stuff that's missing from a standard GT.

Cost
Now that we've dissected the performance and features of the Mustang GT and the Z, let's talk about the price of each. Here, the Mustang GT (starting at $39,440) is the clear winner. The Nissan Z Sport starts out at $41,015, a difference of $1,575. However, we must admit that belies the standard tech features the Nissan Z comes with in the Sport trim. To get roughly the equivalent of what the Z Sport comes with, you need to go for the Mustang GT Premium which costs $44,460—a $3,445 premium to get the features included in the Sport from the get go. That said, the Mustang GT is a stellar performer from our testing, besting even the Z Performance that costs $51,015 and you only need to spend about $145 more than that ($51,160) and you get the GT Premium with the Performance Pack that blows away the 2023 Nissan Z Performance.

Just to throw it out there, if you wanted the ultimate 5.0-liter V-8 Mustang, you could spring for the Mach 1, as it's essentially the Performance Pack Mustang GT Premium with a 480 hp engine with a 168 mph top speed. It sits between the GT and the Shelby GT500, and starts at $57,665—$6,650 more than the Z Performance, but it's also faster to 60 (4.2 seconds), faster in the quarter mile (12.6 at 113.1 mph), quicker to stop (96 feet), and still handles better than the Z (though nearly equal to the GT Performance Pack). Its substantial premium, however, makes for an imperfect comparison.

Conclusion
Here is the ultimate question you need to answer, "What am I looking for in a sports car?" Do you want driver-focused features as standard and just want the sound of a 400-hp twin turbo engine? The only option is the 2023 Nissan Z. You want all out performance, tech be damned? You're looking for the 2022 Mustang GT with the Performance Package.

However, the 2022 Mustang GT Premium might offer the best balance of all. It comes with the tech the Z has but is quicker and better-performing, even without the Performance Pack. For that additional $160 over the price of the 2023 Z Performance, you can add the Performance Pack, get a very decent handling car with very good power, and the technology that the Z has (minus the turbo-specific stuff).

2023 Nissan Z VS 2022 Ford Mustang 18
filterSEE ALL 90 PHOTOS

What could Nissan have done to come out on top? Finding another 30-40 hp out of the VR30DDTT would have helped in the acceleration department. And the Z needs more grip to match the Mustang in lateral, figure-eight, and braking performance—this could perhaps be found with additional tire grip. It's quite possible an upcoming NISMO version of the Z will address these concerns, although a NISMO would certainly be more expensive and scramble the math on the comparison a bit.

Don't forget that a new Mustang—the S650—is due for 2024, too. It should bring an additional hybrid powertrain option and return with the 5.0-liter V-8—and may bring additional performance improvements that keep it out in front of anything Nissan can cook up. The competition is good for enthusiasts like us. Let's hope it stays hot.


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Old 08-30-2022, 07:24 PM   #1042
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Default 2023 Nissan Z Performance vs. 2022 Toyota Supra 3.0

2023 Nissan Z Performance vs. 2022 Toyota Supra 3.0


https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews...-toyota-supra/

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Nostalgia is a powerful thing. It pervades so much of the zeitgeist, with TV reboots getting cranked out at an almost alarming rate, and vinyl record sales topping $1 billion for the first time since 1986. Car enthusiasts are a particularly nostalgic bunch; just look at the values of the cars Gen X and Millennials saw as icons. This cultural force has seen a number of great nameplates revived, like the Toyota Supra, or reinvigorated with an eye towards past glories, as is the case with the new Nissan Z.


Z vs. Supra is by no means a perennial battle like Mustang vs. Camaro, though the 300ZX and Supra went after the sort looking for a fast, technologically advanced, sports-GT through the Eighties and Nineties. Today, these two fit the more traditional sports car mold: Six-cylinder engines under a long hood, two seats in the middle, driven wheels at the back.
Price Comparison

This comparison test was obvious beyond any nostalgic connections. The Nissan Z costs $51,015 in "Performance" guise, makes 400 hp and 350 lb-ft from a twin-turbo V-6 and weighs 3507 pounds. The Supra 3.0 starts at $52,500, makes 382 hp and 368 lb-ft from a single-turbo straight-six, and weighs 3347 pounds.


(We're simplifying things a bit, as the base Z costs $41,015, though it does without the limited-slip differential, upgraded brakes, and sportier suspension tune of the Performance model. The Supra starts at $43,450, however, that's with four-cylinder power. Our Z tester was a $54,015 2023 "Proto" spec, mechanically identical to the Performance but with gold wheels and yellow interior accents. The Supra was a 2022 Premium model retailing for $57,355.)
Choice of venue was obvious, too. Lime Rock Park is one of America's great road courses, fast, flowing, and surrounded by gorgeous country roads that would give us the opportunity to thoroughly test each car. Lime Rock is also one of the tracks where the original Datsun Z made its mark, earning a reputation as one of the finest sports cars on sale in America. Driving a car that evokes the 240Z, channeling legends like Bob Sharp, Sam Posey, Paul Newman, and many others, was irresistible.


Did someone say something about nostalgia?

2023 nissan z performance and 2022 toyota supra 30
DW Burnett
Nissan Z on Track

The Z exudes traditional sports-car charm. This new model rides on the same chassis as the 370Z, itself an update of the 350Z that entered production 20 years ago, Consequently, it feels old, but in a good way.

While not an out-and-out track car, the Z was a joy around Lime Rock, and impressively quick. Editor-at-Large Travis Okulski was on hand to set lap times, and we followed our usual procedure where each car got a handful of hot laps. The idea is not to get the quickest time possible, but to show how approachable a car is. The Z posted a 1:02.603 in its third flying lap around the "classic" 1.5-mile layout of the circuit. A very respectable time, and one that wasn't difficult to achieve, thanks to its balanced chassis, stability under braking, and communicative controls.

Okulski said the Z drives like a big Miata and everyone else agreed. There's a fair bit of body roll in cornering, though the car never feels like it's overworking the tires. That roll, combined with well-weighted steering—and a great steering wheel—give the driver a tangible sense of connection. Okulski noted some mid-corner understeer in Lime Rock's long first turn, Big Bend, yet it can be managed with a slight lift of the throttle. It's all wonderfully cohesive, the rear faithfully following the front, giving the driver a ton of confidence.

Nissan equipped our tester with NISMO brake pads, which will be available at dealers for $450 a set. The brakes were a highlight, giving fade-free performance throughout our track time. Pedal feel was good, too, with a little bit of "sneeze factor" at the top of the travel, and easy modulation. Those are great qualities for Lime Rock, which has only one big brake zone, at the end of the front straight, where the Z was hitting around 125 mph, and a few spots where a dab of brake is necessary to scrub off speed. The only caveats here are that the pads are quite pricey and generate an extraordinary amount of dust.


2023 nissan z performance and 2022 toyota supra
DW Burnett
The Z returns to turbocharging for the first time since the demise of the Z32 300ZX in 2000, borrowing a 3.0-liter unit from Infiniti. When you first get on throttle, there's a bit of lag, followed by the two turbochargers spooling up very progressively and providing linear delivery to a little over 6000 rpm. (Peak power is achieved at 6400 rpm, but torque drops off above 5200 rpm.) Overall, it's a very nice engine, if not entirely special, and it gives the Z serious pace.

Our tester was equipped with a manual, and we couldn't be more delighted. Well, we could. The gates aren't as precisely defined as we'd like, and both Okulski and I worried about accidental 5-2 downshifts braking into turn one. I found the pedals to be well-spaced for heel-and-toe, though Okulski—who has excessively long legs—didn't. It's somewhat of a moot point, because the transmission comes with auto rev-matching—something Nissan pioneered—which works intuitively. A short-shift kit would help the feel here. We kept coming back to two words: "engaging" and "fun." The Z is a great sports car, plain and simple, a reminder of why we fell in love with sports cars in the first place. For the money, a Camaro SS 1LE is perhaps a better track car, but for someone who mainly drives on the road and does one or two track days a year, the Z is just about perfect.


Toyota Supra on Track

Notably, "engaging" or "fun" were not words used to describe the Supra. Fast? Definitely. It beat the Z with a 1:02.151 and we're confident it could've gone even quicker (a Supra test we did in 2019 for an all-out lap time saw one turn a 1:01.51 at Lime Rock). Thank the Supra's Michelin Pilot Super Sports, which are superior to the Z's Bridgestone S007s, the eight-speed automatic in this test car, and a higher roll stiffness. Unfortunately, we're still about a month out from testing the new, manual Supra, making this a slightly lopsided fight.


The experience simply isn't as enjoyable. Speed comes much easier in the Supra, though there's a nagging sense that the car is more eager to bite you. The rear end is far too soft, wandering under braking, struggling with the prodigious output of the BMW straight-six, and generally unable to keep up with the very sharp front end. Unlike with the Z, where you occasionally have to think about the fronts washing out, the Supra requires focus on the rear.


It's not all bad, of course. The engine is the highlight, far smoother than the Z's V-6 and with much better throttle response despite only having one turbo. There's much more low-end torque, too, and the straight-six pulls harder to its 7000-rpm redline. Most of the time, the ZF eight-speed automatic works as seamlessly as you'd expect, though Okulski and Digital Director Aaron Brown found that it occasionally denied downshifts.


Interestingly, we all felt the Supra wouldn't be as engaging as the Z even if it had a manual. At least not without some meaningful chassis tweaks. The Toyota holds you at arm's length, with dead steering, and not much more feel through the seat of your pants either. It's faster in hands of all experience levels, just not fun.

"The Supra feels like a newer car," Okulski said. "Which is to say, it has all the bad traits of new cars and all the good traits. It's got a quicker gearbox, a much better, more responsive engine, better tires, a more connected front end, and it also feels like it was built only in pursuit of lap times, not making the driver feel involved in the process."


On the Road

Out on the road, it was a similar story. The Z's playfulness stood out, and the softer setup started to make even more sense. It breathes better with the road and engages at lower speeds, even if it's easily capable of pace that could charitably be described as "extralegal." Outside the track, in the beautiful countryside at Connecticut's north westerly border with New York, the Z feels at home.

At road speeds, the turbo lag and the relative imprecision of the gearbox become less noticeable. It is, however, obvious that the Z is a much older car inside, with a lot of cheap switchgear carried over from the 370Z and other Nissan products. It's a necessary evil, as Nissan doesn't have the development budget to build a sports car from the ground up. It’s also easily forgivable because the important stuff—seats, steering wheel, transmission, pedals—is all lovely. The gauge cluster is especially great and gimmick-free, with a nice big tach in the middle and legible gauges for temperatures and pressures. Exactly what you need in a sports car. Bonus points go to the three auxiliary gauges on the dashboard, the best of which is the highly unusual turbo speed sensor, a knock-on benefit of Nissan's use of speed sensors on the turbine shafts.

The Supra's BMW roots are obvious in the cabin, and it feels much more luxurious than the Z. There's a slickness and polish Nissan simply can't match.

In some ways, the Supra is the better daily driver, the preferable car to be in when you're puttering around town, clicking off miles on the highway, sitting in traffic, listening to a podcast. Yet, when you're trying to have fun, the Supra doesn't deliver. It's a car that leaves the driver feeling cold and distant, and the suspension tuning isn't right. That rear end skips over bumps and imperfections, and it's much harder to get into a flow with the road surface beneath.


In a perfect world, you'd have the Z's chassis and stunning exterior and the Supra's engine and interior. We don't live in a perfect world, so the Z remains the best choice. After all, this is a sports car. We don't buy sports cars on interior trim; we buy them for the joy they bring to our lives.


Which brings us back neatly to nostalgia. In far more than just looks, the Z evokes the spirit of the sports car greats, its predecessors among them. It's fun for fun's sake, the rare modern car that truly engages the senses like a classic.
It's something of a triumph from Nissan. Its track record over the last few years has been lackluster. We were prepared for disappointment, but the Z lives up to its promise. It's one of the best Nissans since the GT-R. Despite being made with theoretically better, more modern components, the Supra's whole is less than the sum. I'd like to think there's a great sports car in there somewhere, and maybe the 2023 version will be exactly that. For now, if you want a great Toyota-badged sports car, buy a GR86.

For the nostalgia obsessed, the choice is obvious.

This should get comments flowing. Good read
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Old 08-31-2022, 08:57 AM   #1043
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Interesting read about the Supra, a car I was really interested in.
Reminded me of my old 335xi, where it would judder when hitting bumps on the highway ramps, to the point where the car would drift to the woods. I really didnt see what people saw in this car, other than the nice engine. I ended up swapping suspension components to make it more composed and give better feedback.

MT Supra is supposed to have tuned suspension/chassis, I think.
I might end up keeping the STI if its not that good.
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Old 08-31-2022, 11:55 AM   #1044
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This should get comments flowing. Good read
Meh. It's finished last in every comparison it's been in to date. Someone had to throw it a bone with an subjective conclusion. If you want a fun car that's not going to win anything on race day you get a lower priced car like a BRZ or Miata where people expect more fun, less performance for the money. When you are spending over $50k, being happy with finishing last because of nostalgia isn't going to get it done for most people today.
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Old 08-31-2022, 12:14 PM   #1045
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I understand everyone comparing the GR Supra to the Z with performance pack, its natural. However it reminds me of the EVO vs STi debates. X looks better than Y but Y car wins on track, and X car is more comfy, yadayadayada. You just have to pick your poison, both are awesome cars.
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Old 08-31-2022, 12:14 PM   #1046
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I just don't really believe in Nissan anymore. I am not saying the Z is not a good car, but from the company to the dealership network to all their issues with CVT's I just get a very Mitsubishi type vibe with them. Like they could fold tomorrow and not many people would care.

My mother in law has a fairly new loaded Murano and the car is just terrible to drive. It's one of the worst transmissions I have ever experienced and the engine is not impressive at all for what you pay.
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Old 08-31-2022, 12:14 PM   #1047
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duplicate

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Old 08-31-2022, 01:31 PM   #1048
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Originally Posted by thill View Post
I just don't really believe in Nissan anymore. I am not saying the Z is not a good car, but from the company to the dealership network to all their issues with CVT's I just get a very Mitsubishi type vibe with them. Like they could fold tomorrow and not many people would care.

My mother in law has a fairly new loaded Murano and the car is just terrible to drive. It's one of the worst transmissions I have ever experienced and the engine is not impressive at all for what you pay.
I had a rental rogue sport last week for a week. Foot to floor, 1...2...3...4..5 ok, now we're moving. Didn't matter which speed it was going when it was actuated. Marginally comfortable though, and made it from RI to Philly, and then Philly to RI (6 hours) without having to stop for a rest room break, gas, stretching... (other than in stop and go traffic in and around NY/CT).

After my Nissan Titan '06 fiasco, I vowed to never own any nissan again, I'll say it again, "they only build cars to last the warranty period". They make a BOAT load in post-warranty repairs.

Loved my '84 Maxima, but once 85 hit, they started the death sprial with FWD maxima, and then abysmal z32 300zx.
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Old 08-31-2022, 05:06 PM   #1049
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I loved the Z32.
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Old 09-01-2022, 09:12 AM   #1050
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I loved the Z32.
Looked good, but was a turd. Understeer city due to compromised suspension design.
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