Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-16-2018, 11:19 PM   #1
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default 2018 STI RA Engine Block Teardown

With the release of the 2018 STI RA, I was curious what changes were made to the internals of the engine. Subaru had indicated that new pistons were used, but didn’t specific much else in terms of internals.

I ordered a 2018 RA engine block about 2 months ago, and at that time there were no spare engine blocks in the US. It was eventually ordered from Japan and arrive at the end of last week. The price was the same as the regular STI short block.

On first glance, the block looks almost identical to the existing EJ257 motor. The cases is the newest 705 case, the crankshaft has the nitride black finish, and the piston tops look very familiar.





I disassembled the engine and first took a look at the pistons, since that is something documented as being ‘improved’.



RA piston on the left (BV), 2004-2006 STI piston on the right (A5)/

The pistons are very similar, and both appear to be machined cast parts.





The most obvious difference is the construction of the bottom of the piston. The older EJ257 piston does not fully enclose the pin boss, while the new construction has significantly more material around both of the pin sides of the piston. RA piston on the left above, STI on the right.



From the side, you can see the difference in material around the pin area. Construction and dimensions of the ring and ring area looks the same, with the exception that the upper ring area is fully coated on the older ones.

While not easy to see in these pictures, on the bottom side the depression right at the center of the piston is less, and the material is thicker. I would estimate the piston is between 1 and 2mm thicker going from the top to the bottom surface.

Other dimensions appear to be the same. Compression height, ring position, etc are all the same.

The new piston is heavier - 424 vs 414 grams (10 grams heavier).

I did a quick CC measurement and they appear to be pretty close. I’ll do a more complete measurement in the next few days.





The crankshaft appears identical to the 2016/2017 crankshaft, with no special oil modifications.



The rod also looks to be the standard previous year EJ257 rod. You can see the slight difference in design between the original EJ207 rod, the early EJ257 (2004), later EJ257 (2008), and the 2018 STI/RA rod.

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 06-16-2018, 11:19 PM   #2
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default









One interesting difference in the piston is the presence of a ‘Hitachi’ logo in the casting. This did not appear in previous pistons (which has a small Subaru mark in that location).



I will measure all of the factory bearing clearances to see if there is any difference there.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2018, 11:20 PM   #3
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

And no difference in the wrist pins...

sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2018, 11:59 PM   #4
Specgtr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173256
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Vehicle:
1999 V5 STI coupe
Blue

Default

Nice work, do you think the new block will be able to support more power? Or still have ring land issues?
Specgtr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2018, 08:37 AM   #5
FuJi K
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 3687
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: St. Paul, MN
Vehicle:
MY99 GF4 JDM 6spd
NF Performance

Default

How dare you! That's Restricted Access! Lol

Interesting.....
FuJi K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2018, 10:45 AM   #6
viper_crazy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 298403
Join Date: Oct 2011
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
2008 WRX Premium
Spark Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Specgtr View Post
Nice work, do you think the new block will be able to support more power? Or still have ring land issues?
I was wondering this too. With the limited number of these things produced, it's possible we may not find out for a while since, I imagine, most guys my only bring these things out on a sunny Sunday drive. At least, I know I would if I was privileged enough to own one.
viper_crazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2018, 11:48 AM   #7
subydude
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 80649
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Columbia, SC
Vehicle:
2000 2.5 Auto-X RSTi
Sparkly

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper_crazy View Post
I was wondering this too. With the limited number of these things produced, it's possible we may not find out for a while since, I imagine, most guys my only bring these things out on a sunny Sunday drive. At least, I know I would if I was privileged enough to own one.
From the literature of the 2019 STi, it appears it's getting the same block and pistons as the RA so there should be a lot more examples available for reliability.
subydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2018, 11:54 AM   #8
viper_crazy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 298403
Join Date: Oct 2011
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
2008 WRX Premium
Spark Silver

Default

Oh, interesting.
viper_crazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2018, 01:53 PM   #9
dcsti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 77809
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne, FL
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Aspen White

Default

Interesting. Thanks for doing this, I was curious what the differences where.

Any idea why the case halves have a different part number if they are the same as the previous 705 castings?

I have to say, so far the "new" EJ is a bit underwhelming.
dcsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2018, 03:35 PM   #10
mrsaturn7085
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 375462
Join Date: Dec 2013
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX STI
WR Blue

Default

Might want to proof-read a few of the left/right notes, as a few are flipped on images where you cannot see RA vs. earlier markings. Some are obvious to readers, but a few others are not.

As I expected ever since the first images of the cast valve reliefs were shown, Subaru talked up the new parts as if we were being given something amazing, assigned a price tag to the spares equivalent to older GDB-A/B forged parts, yet they went cheap in the end.

Just like the 2008+ 6MT oiling.
Just like the 2018 gutted DCCD.

Subaru USA is now a company that completely preys on ignorant buyers. Downgraded or side-graded parts while marketing them as upgrades and charging people out the ass. Pretty sad to see when the economy in both the USA and Japan aren't the driving factor for behavior like this at the moment...
mrsaturn7085 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2018, 10:29 AM   #11
Titter
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 416107
Join Date: Mar 2015
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Ontario, Canada
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
EJ207 Spec C 4EAT

Default 2018 STI RA Engine Block Teardown

once again you have done the subaru community a great service. thank you for this.

i should mention your pics got reversed. you say left (bv) is the RA piston but the pic has it on the right.

were they mis-labeled? or is it just the camera flipping the image?

just though i would point it out to avoid confusion.
Titter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 03:07 AM   #12
revlimit408
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 407008
Join Date: Nov 2014
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: california
Vehicle:
02 2.1 stroker
fpgreen htz v9 sti 6speed

Default

WOW . Hitachi makes piston die cast aluminum at Mexico ,not sure if its the same for the sti
revlimit408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 10:42 AM   #13
12wrx1
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 386873
Join Date: Apr 2014
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: WA
Default

It is possible that Subaru added something to the casting process to make this "new" piston stronger. If you know about how they make cast pistons then you probably know that you can add elements in the casting process that can make a cast piston significantly stronger while keeping the same characteristics of a cast piston vs forged. You would not be able to see this as it is the material itself that is stronger.
12wrx1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 11:05 AM   #14
A-man07
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 271525
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: BagEnd
Vehicle:
7/2 STi/WRX wagon
SWP/AW

Default

Sponaugle FTW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
As I expected ever since the first images of the cast valve reliefs were shown, Subaru talked up the new parts as if we were being given something amazing, assigned a price tag to the spares equivalent to older GDB-A/B forged parts, yet they went cheap in the end.

Just like the 2008+ 6MT oiling.
Just like the 2018 gutted DCCD.

Subaru USA is now a company that completely preys on ignorant buyers. Downgraded or side-graded parts while marketing them as upgrades and charging people out the ass. Pretty sad to see when the economy in both the USA and Japan aren't the driving factor for behavior like this at the moment...
Yeah I quit drinking this company's Kool-Aid quite some years ago. Like the older platforms but no more new Subies for me.
A-man07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 11:33 AM   #15
no694terry
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 220816
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Vehicle:
2018 Exotruck

Default

still prefer my ej22's
no694terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 01:19 PM   #16
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
Might want to proof-read a few of the left/right notes, as a few are flipped on images where you cannot see RA vs. earlier markings. Some are obvious to readers, but a few others are not.

As I expected ever since the first images of the cast valve reliefs were shown, Subaru talked up the new parts as if we were being given something amazing, assigned a price tag to the spares equivalent to older GDB-A/B forged parts, yet they went cheap in the end.

Just like the 2008+ 6MT oiling.
Just like the 2018 gutted DCCD.

Subaru USA is now a company that completely preys on ignorant buyers. Downgraded or side-graded parts while marketing them as upgrades and charging people out the ass. Pretty sad to see when the economy in both the USA and Japan aren't the driving factor for behavior like this at the moment...
Yea, I'll fix that.. a couple of them are incorrect. I fixed in on the original facebook post, but forgot to come here and fix it.

Thanks!

Jeff
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 02:48 PM   #17
mrsaturn7085
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 375462
Join Date: Dec 2013
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX STI
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
Yeah I quit drinking this company's Kool-Aid quite some years ago. Like the older platforms but no more new Subies for me.
Yeah... it's really sad to see the other Japanese marques bouncing back with newer, better cars while Subaru (formerly FHI) took the low road and absorbed all the benefits of the better economy into the bottom line. It's like they learned in 2007(ish) that they could cut costs/performance in the USA without people caring and just kept at it.

Part of it really is the Kool-Aid mentality in the USA - smarter consumers elsewhere don't put up with this BS. Case in point - check out the resale value of the first-generation BMW M6. BMW didn't change anything on the car for YEARS and these can be had for almost a quarter of the sticker price now (seriously... ~$40k used, 10-15k mile cars) with next to no mileage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12wrx1 View Post
It is possible that Subaru added something to the casting process to make this "new" piston stronger. If you know about how they make cast pistons then you probably know that you can add elements in the casting process that can make a cast piston significantly stronger while keeping the same characteristics of a cast piston vs forged. You would not be able to see this as it is the material itself that is stronger.
Keep trying to justify that $50k price tag

Last edited by mrsaturn7085; 06-20-2018 at 02:53 PM.
mrsaturn7085 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 03:32 PM   #18
no694terry
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 220816
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Vehicle:
2018 Exotruck

Default

only company ive noticed getting some nice reliable gains from 4 cylinders is Volvo.
no694terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 05:58 PM   #19
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Default

Thanks for doing this.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how many RAs blow ring lands to find out if the pistons are any better.
jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 07:05 PM   #20
redrexmeister
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 111692
Join Date: Apr 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Jersey burbs
Default RA short block

Would you say that the bearings are the same too?

I assume older ej257 head will mate with RA short block no issues, right?

Last edited by redrexmeister; 06-21-2018 at 10:36 PM.
redrexmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 07:11 PM   #21
Bimmubishi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48713
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
1888 Bellipotent
Wooden

Default

Really cool investigation. Keep us posted with more findings.
Bimmubishi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 07:50 PM   #22
Bimmubishi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48713
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
1888 Bellipotent
Wooden

Default

mrSaturn makes some good points above although I don't fully understand the M6 comparison (perhaps you can elaborate)

A couple points- one Subaru only claimed that the pistons were stronger, nothing else. They do appear to be stronger. Wouldn't it have been nice if they used forged pistons though?

Subaru needs to price to be able to cover a given model's potential warranty claims. That said, the "track inspired" car will likely see more claims than the standard Impreza, thus the higher price.

Second, there is something to be said for a limited run. Porsche is the worst with these. They create these low production runs knowing fully that dealers will be able to charge a premium on top of stickers, and that the collector set will go mad (see 996 GT3 prices) I spent some time earlier this month trying to buy a 22b, a car with less performance than a current STI that can be beaten by an Evo of it's own generation yet is 5x the cost of either. When you enter the collector zone sanity and reason go out the window.
Bimmubishi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 08:25 PM   #23
mrsaturn7085
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 375462
Join Date: Dec 2013
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX STI
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
mrSaturn makes some good points above although I don't fully understand the M6 comparison (perhaps you can elaborate)
The BMW M6 went relatively unchanged year-by-year and this has a tendency to cause a sharp drop in sales as interest drops off. Resale on used M6 cars, in turn, plummeted.

The powertrain (as well as drivetrain) of the STI has also gone unchanged for years and years, and generally when something has changed, it has been a downgrade. The chassis has gotten more rigid, but at the expense of weight (granted, not a ton - some 200 lbs).

So aside from the cosmetic face-lifts, the only thing keeping people interested in the STI is the BS that Subaru of America spews as 'upgrades'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
A couple points- one Subaru only claimed that the pistons were stronger, nothing else. They do appear to be stronger. Wouldn't it have been nice if they used forged pistons though?
They did in 2000-2001. It's a shame they decided to charge the same price for the new RA pistons as spare parts as the markup on the forged EJ207 pistons. You can still order these pistons all day long outside the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
Subaru needs to price to be able to cover a given model's potential warranty claims. That said, the "track inspired" car will likely see more claims than the standard Impreza, thus the higher price.
2004 STI MSRP = $32,000-$32,500
2018 STI MSRP = $36,000

This is still pretty well in-line, here.

2018 STI RA MSRP = $48,995

This isn't.

I'm not talking about the price of an STI vs. the price of an Impreza. I'm talking about the morons that pay a $12k+ premium for the RA thinking it's something special. It's a limited-run, yes... but I'd give 10:1 odds that less than 100 will remain unmodified. Start buying crappy parts and suddenly you've got an STI with a carbon roof that likely under-performs the actual stock STI. In Japan, where you actually get a totally different car with the Spec C (or even more limited R- and S- series cars), there is a reason behind the price difference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmubishi View Post
Second, there is something to be said for a limited run. Porsche is the worst with these. They create these low production runs knowing fully that dealers will be able to charge a premium on top of stickers, and that the collector set will go mad (see 996 GT3 prices) I spent some time earlier this month trying to buy a 22b, a car with less performance than a current STI that can be beaten by an Evo of it's own generation yet is 5x the cost of either. When you enter the collector zone sanity and reason go out the window.
First off, I'm talking pre-dealer mark-up. The MSRP of the RA is $12k over the base STI. $12,000. That's a down payment on a good house in literally all but the highest priced areas of the USA.

The 22B had the tech. to back up the MSRP over base models.

Porsche GT3, GT2 RS, etc. has the tech. to back up the price tag over base models. Hell even the 'S' models in the the 997 range (which weren't even that limited) had active suspensions added as standard. Active suspension is no small change!

Aside from sheer greed, I don't quite understand the drive for this with SoA and the USDM RA... it's not like the bubble burst and we're not going to see performance stuff for a decade out of Japan at the moment (though the tariff stuff isn't looking good). Subaru *could* make a better performance car (look at the missed potential with the BRZ after all these years... seriously). They *could* give us the good parts they're still stuffing into the JDM models (though we'll never see the EJ207)... but they're not.

They've taken the 'RA' name that actually meant something on older models and just made it next to worthless. It used to be - 'we're gonna celebrate our success by offering a kick-ass car with a limited run to our most loyal consumers; make it fast, cost is no object'. Now - 'we're gonna celebrate our success by offering an assembly-line car with a limited run badge to our most gullible consumers; here's $2000 bucks to add some parts, make sure you bring me back the change'. It's not like the RA shares anything in common with the GT car they ran on Nurburgring anyhow. That car shares more in common with Super GT and WRC cars than anything else.
mrsaturn7085 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 07:27 AM   #24
Bimmubishi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48713
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
1888 Bellipotent
Wooden

Default

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but not that there was tech in earlier premium models like the 22b which still had a 5 speed yet commanded 40+k new in 1998.

The M6 is still a weird example. BMW only produced 4000 cars and the engines were essentially group-A hardware which wasn't cheap to begin with. The E24 chassis had a long run though so I get you there but the tech carried over to later models to some degree and the price was likely justified given that the car was an M1 derivative and VIP car.

Subaru also had forged pistons in the 1993/4 Sti Version. I know which have them and which don't, my point was only that for 50k this car should have them too. (and I think you agree!)

I agree with you that the RA isn't worth an extra 12k just for the record. I think an argument can be made that the car will be worth something as a collector's item down the road but it's unlikely. The carbon roof is such childish costume jewelry. The spoiler too.
Bimmubishi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 09:10 AM   #25
Titter
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 416107
Join Date: Mar 2015
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Ontario, Canada
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
EJ207 Spec C 4EAT

Default 2018 STI RA Engine Block Teardown

muricains will pay a premium for exclusivity. SoA could have done literally nothing except add an RA badge, jack the price $12k, and they still would have sold all 500 units.

they need to show their neighbours that the are doing better than them... objectively
Titter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.