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Old 11-24-2008, 11:53 AM   #51
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$60k is A LOT of money, may not sound like mcuh these days, but it's A LOT. Everybody is so used to inflated price figures for houses and cars, that we are forgetting that even the highest median income in populated areas is still way under $60k/year. To make a single purchase that eats up more than your annual income and is garunteed to decpreciate rapidly at some point is sorta what got us into this economic mess, no? Whether or not they can get a loan for it, the average American can't even afford the $30-40k vehicles that they drive... Just because they drive it does NOT mean they can afford it. If Tesla could cut some costs and make something in their line-up that looks good and competes with say a Camry or Corolla on looks, performance, and price, along with their sports car as a higher-end model, now THAT would be something I might be more willing to allow tax dollars to go into, because it's something the people who are being taxed might actually have a hope of owning/driving one.

I keep hearing people say things like, "oh, that car is only $35,000, that's not so bad." $35k? I make decent money, and do you know how much I would have to work to pay off $35k?!?! What are people thinking? Tesla needs a car under say $30k that the average taxpayer might actually buy when they figure in lower operating costs.
i completely agree with you on this. tesla has not made an effort to make cars that will appeal to the general public and therefore will not be adding much value to this economy. $35k for a car is a lot of dough... i remember paying $17k outta the door for my camry LE with ABS back in 1998... given that it was a century ago but my god... i walked into a toyota dealership yesterday and the corolla they had in the show room had a price tag of $19k + tax... unbelievable. my dad once told me that i should not buy a car thats worth more than 20% of your annual income AFTER tax otherwise you are just looking for trouble... with inflated auto prices, i wonder who can buy a new car with just 20% of their iannual income after tax?...
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:32 PM   #52
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Once again this money is not bail-out money. This is money for them to build a plant stateside for their new sedan.
Then they should be asking a bank or investors for the money, not US taxpayers. Expecting people working for $10 an hour in Starbucks to pay more taxes so Tesla can build a few $60,000 sedans is bizarre.
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:34 PM   #53
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While I agree 60k is a lot of money and definitely not in the average buyers price range, its necessary as others have said before in this thread for tesla to ramp up production (which as everyone knows reduces prices) eventually they have plans for a sub $30k car that will be produced after the model S (which is what part of this $400m is rumored to be going toward). Tesla, unlike the big 3, have to grow into being able to produce a higher volume of cars. Their cars are also for the world market in which a lot of $60k+ cars are sold.

Not to mention they supposedly will manufacture the drive trains for the new smart and mini EV.

If they deserve the low cost loan is a matter of opinion. I just want to correct all the misinformation about Tesla and EV's in general

Last edited by elirentz; 11-24-2008 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:45 PM   #54
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Please look at Porsche...they are profitable and sell cars that "the average tax payer can't afford".
Porsche is not asking for loan money from the U.S. Gov either. And if they were, my attitude toward them would be the same if not worse... They could go take a hike.

My issue is not with Tesla making an expensive car. It's a free market, and if they have customers willing to pay a high price, then that's fine. But a loan is a risk, and if they are going to risk tax money on Tesla, then Tesla damn well better make a car that is affordable to the average tax payer who's money would be going into the project.

I just don't want my tax money going into a car that only wealthy people will be driving around, that's all. If Tesla came up with the proposal that "We need x amount of money to build an affordable electric people's car" then I might be more for it. But instead it's more of an open ended "We need money to grow, we have an expensive sport roadster, we're looking at making a $60k sedan, and then maybe (years later?) eventually making a more affordable model IF we're still in business."

If they have a good business model with a plan that is appealing to investors, then they can get money without knocking on the government's door. And if the founder is so rich, can he not put some of his own assets on the line for funding or as collateral? If their business model is not attracting any investors, the billionaire owner is not willing to put his own money on the line, and they're crawling to the gov for a loan, then something is wrong and frankly I don't want a dollar of my tax money anywhere near Tesla, whether it's a loan or a grant.

Last edited by jhargis; 11-24-2008 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:08 PM   #55
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^^^
take a deep breath and try to take what I've said in context.
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:45 PM   #56
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I think I Gotcha If Porsche can make it on their own with expensive sports cars and grow successfully, then why can't Tesla, eh?

Sorry, I get passionate on this issue. I'm a unmarried young male with no kids which means I get basically no breaks and pay out a pretty good portion of my check to taxes, so I get wound up every time I hear of a new way that the gov is potentially going to squander my hard earned money while I drive down poorly maintained roads. Heck my parents couldn't afford college for me, so while kids just a tiny bit poorer than me got grants and an easy ride through school, I've had to work for and pay for my own tuition/books. Basically, as a nation we have problems far greater than dishing out funding for an electric sports car car company that might make a cheaper model that I could afford a long time from now. I would be much more supportive of a government program to develop a standardized affordable and useful battery technology that could be licensed out to American companies like Tesla, then to just give Tesla a bunch of cash and hope they do well enough to pay it back some day.

It used to be that when the government got involved, we had people set foot on the moon and huge technological advances were made like jet engines, radar and as a related accidental discovery, the microwave oven. Now when the gov steps in, we can only barely expect an affordable electric car at some undisclosed date in the future?

Last edited by jhargis; 11-25-2008 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:31 PM   #57
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^Completely understand and respect that position. I too have a hard time agreeing with any sort of bail-out/ cheap money loan because of bad business practices. Supposedly without the loan Tesla will be profitable by the middle of next year with the roadster and drivetrain sales. If they don't hurry up with their next car they will have some serious competition on their hands.

IMO Tesla should be eligible for a few small loans for environmental and energy reasons but $400m is way too much.

Last edited by elirentz; 11-24-2008 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:43 PM   #58
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...But a loan is a risk, and if they are going to risk tax money on Tesla, then Tesla damn well better make a car that is affordable to the average tax payer who's money would be going into the project.

This is very well said. I agree. It doesn't matter that I like Tesla. If they do not have a viable plan to produce a mainstream daily driver then they need to seek money from private investors and not tax payers.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:49 PM   #59
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At least they HAVE a plan! The big three were like, "Hi, we need 25 Billion" ....

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Old 11-24-2008, 06:29 PM   #60
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With regards to Tesla, despite all the posts saying how it's not a bailout, it's my understanding that the pool of money Tesla is asking for a chunk of is the same pool going into the proposed bailout for GM and Co. Could be wrong there, but eh.

Now, I'm not really for any company getting taxpayers' money from the government as we live in a free-market capitalism based economy. The only reason I support the American bailout is because of the devastating effect on our economy (and the world economy as a whole) the big three going under would cause. Tesla, not so much.

Thus, even if it's not the same pool of cash, I don't support the government handing out cash to private companies. What's wrong with just continuing the same tax-break model they and other hybrid/electric-based cars been getting? If they can't hack it, oh well, that's capitalism, baby. Hope for a buyout.
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:38 PM   #61
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They have plans to release the specifics of their new sedan the model S the first of next year. Here's R&T's idea of what it will look like:

**** me... where do I sign?
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:33 PM   #62
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IMO Tesla should be eligible for a few small loans for environmental and energy reasons but $400m is way too much.
Here's another way to think of it...

The US spends roughly $100 per barrel guarding oil imported from the middle east. That's before the cost of the war in Iraq. Bases in Qatar, carrier group permanently in the Gulf, giving weapons to the Saudis...

20,000 Tesla Model S's being driven 12,000 miles a year saves roughly 600,000 barrels of oil each year for roughly 10 years over the equivalent number average 2007 US light duty vehicle. Or about $60m a year for each year's production.

$60M + $120M + $180M + $240M = $600M in total military savings after 4 years...

Point of the story: This ain't a zero-sum game.
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Old 11-25-2008, 07:50 AM   #63
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^ Good point. Especially in areas where the power isn't generated by fossil fuels.
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Old 11-25-2008, 11:26 AM   #64
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At least they HAVE a plan! The big three were like, "Hi, we need 25 Billion" ....
At least the big 3 have sold tons of cars and employeed thousands of americans.... Testa was like, "Hi, i think any average american would appreciate our $60k base car in this economy, even though we havent received many orders, nor do we have plans to mass produce these expensive cars that needs costly battery replacements every couple of years".

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Old 11-25-2008, 11:52 AM   #65
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At least the big 3 have sold tons of cars and employeed thousands of americans.... Testa was like, "Hi, i think any average american would appreciate our $60k base car in this economy, even though we havent received many orders, nor do we have plans to mass produce these expensive cars that needs costly battery replacements every couple of years".

Or maybe they're just asking for a loan since the government has been handing out blank checks lately. Doesn't hurt to ask. Some people are looking way too deeply into this.
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:59 AM   #66
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Default Tesla posts $619 million loss in third quarter of 2017

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Electric car company's worst financial quarter result yet comes from heavy Model 3 production spending amid build woes

The Tesla Model 3's production issues have contributed to Tesla posting a loss of £468 million in the last financial quarter.

The ‘bottlenecks’ which have delayed the delivery of the Model 3 in line with Tesla’s ambitious targets are being addressed, but there are still problems.

Tesla’s 5000-per-week target for Model 3 production has pushed back to late in the first quarter of 2018. Tesla will be clearer as to exactly when this will happen in its next quarterly report. For now, it's still uncertain when the problems will be alleviated.

“While we continue to make significant progress each week in fixing Model 3 bottlenecks, the nature of manufacturing challenges during a ramp-up such as this makes it difficult to predict exactly how long it will take for all bottlenecks to be cleared or when new ones will appear,” the company's latest report reads. Increasing orders for the Model 3 are both helping Tesla and exacerbating the problem.

Tesla's hesitant outlook comes as it celebrates total production of 250,000 cars since the brand’s birth in 2003, as well as the ever-stronger performance of the Model S and Model X; the two are on track to achieve 100,000 deliveries worldwide across the year. Overall, Tesla’s automotive revenue grew by 10% year-on-year compared with the same period in 2016.

It’s thought that given the level of investment in the production of Model 3, Tesla will likely post more encouraging financial results for investors once production gains momentum.
Autocar
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:00 AM   #67
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His whole automotive company is riding on this car and it's not looking good at all. I want them to succeed but with them laying off a bunch of people and repeated negative financials and press, looking grim. Sucks, I want him to succeed. He's employing a bunch of Americans via his battery gigafactory, Tesla, Space X, and Solar City. Very tired of reading the hate by traditionalism based Muricans. Rooting against your country is Patriotism?
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:19 AM   #68
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Rooting against your country is Patriotism?
Nope, just rooting against ******** becoming undeserved billionaires while idiotic sheep tout them as geniuses. Kardashians and the like also employ many. Idiocracy.
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:32 AM   #69
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Nope, just rooting against ******** becoming undeserved billionaires while idiotic sheep tout them as geniuses. Kardashians and the like also employ many. Idiocracy.
Electrolytes: it's what EV's crave
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:21 PM   #70
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His whole automotive company is riding on this car and it's not looking good at all. I want them to succeed but with them laying off a bunch of people and repeated negative financials and press, looking grim. Sucks, I want him to succeed. He's employing a bunch of Americans via his battery gigafactory, Tesla, Space X, and Solar City. Very tired of reading the hate by traditionalism based Muricans. Rooting against your country is Patriotism?
Model S and X sales are dropping significantly, production issues with Model 3, assembly plants are a mess, and the Model 3 seems to be a ho hum car. The stock price / value of the company has been a problem for a while now. The value was based of "the vision" and not fundamentals. I believe it was just a year or so ago but Tesla reported around $1.09 earnings per share, now its negative nearly $2 / share.

I want to see Tesla succeed but I think this will be another story of being first to truly innovate but gets surpassed by the other autos. Here is what people need to realize. Tesla has to develop a car from scratch (frame, body, electronics, etc etc). That's a **** load of money for R&D. The big autos have a line up of vehicles they can convert to EV at a much lower cost while offering numerous models.

People are not hoping Tesla fails because they are EV or trying to rock the boat. People can realize that Elon is becoming or has become the typical bull**** CEO who downplays serious issues with the company (financials, delivering product) while continuing to think money will forever pour in from investors and that the competition is not coming up fast.

Tesla is down nearly 20% in 15 days. If Tesla cannot meet the promise of delivering 5000 cars a week (I believe that's their commitment they stated) and miss the mark like they this past quarter, it will a huge hit to the company and can have a ripple impact on the market and related industries (semiconductors, materials, lithium ion providers, etc) which can be catastrophic. Not to mention the impact it will have on peoples 401k.

Elon has a company (TSLA) that is far from being stable and facing numerous issues. Yet, he is dicking around with Space X, hyperloop, and the boring company. Lets not also forget his essential buyout bailout of Solar City. Elon has positioned himself in a **** position. He shouldn't have gotten involved in other projects until TSLA was sufficiently running, now he cant back out of Hyperloop, Borings, SpaceX as that will surely send signals of worry.

The stock is so overvalued its insane. If he doesn't hit Q4 projections he is going to have serious problems in 2018. Investors are now tired of this future image he has painted which seems to keep getting pushed out into the future.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:48 PM   #71
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The people who take Elon Musk and Tesla at face value are the ones up in arms. They look at what he and the company overtly say, and find it absurd. Yet he covertly signals all the time that his company is full of ****, and this is just him executing a vision he has rather than trying to be a "normal" CEO. He's talking to the people who "just get it."

If you think he's huckster and the company is a sham, you just don't get it. It's not supposed to be a real company that actually makes money, and it's not supposed to actually deliver what it says on time. It's an organizational means for a visionary to do cool ****, not a profit maximizing company.

The same applies to SpaceX. It's not supposed to go to Mars in 5 years or whatever. It's supposed to go to Mars in like 8, but in order to get to Mars in 8 years you need to tell everyone it's 5 years from now. The people who "just get it" understand, while the people who don't get butthurt.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:07 PM   #72
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The people who take Elon Musk and Tesla at face value are the ones up in arms. They look at what he and the company overtly say, and find it absurd. Yet he covertly signals all the time that his company is full of ****, and this is just him executing a vision he has rather than trying to be a "normal" CEO. He's talking to the people who "just get it."

If you think he's huckster and the company is a sham, you just don't get it. It's not supposed to be a real company that actually makes money, and it's not supposed to actually deliver what it says on time. It's an organizational means for a visionary to do cool ****, not a profit maximizing company.

The same applies to SpaceX. It's not supposed to go to Mars in 5 years or whatever. It's supposed to go to Mars in like 8, but in order to get to Mars in 8 years you need to tell everyone it's 5 years from now. The people who "just get it" understand, while the people who don't get butthurt.


I'm not saying the company is a sham, i'm stating the company has serious struggles ahead and you cannot continue to run with increasing debts especially if investors start pulling out. He additionally has dismissed serious concerns as "nothing to see here" when in fact they make for serious longevity issues.

The company is not even turning a profit to maximize and I hate to break it to you, publicly traded companies are not charities for "cool ****" experiments and hobbies.

How the hell can you say the company is "not a company designed to delivery what it says on time?" When you submit your fiscal and quarterly objectives to Wall Street, they are commitments. If you knowingly submit false financial targets without intentions of actually meeting or exceeding, that misleading investors and that's illegal.

If Elon is "covertly sending signals that the company is bull****," then all monetary investments should dry up and be put into companies who are not bull****. Tell me, what is Elons "vision?" To have a car and solar company that is not profitable with sales declining that eventually gets surpassed by other autos?

BTW: SpaceX, boring, and hyperloop are not part of the TSLA umbrella. I hope you realize that.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:30 PM   #73
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BTW: SpaceX, boring, and hyperloop are not part of the TSLA umbrella. I hope you realize that.
They are part of the Elon Musk umbrella, and they might as well be.

Henry Ford blew all sorts of smoke in his day. This isn't any different. You can't view the guy like a regular CEO or his company like a regular company.

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The company is not even turning a profit to maximize and I hate to break it to you, publicly traded companies are not charities for "cool ****" experiments and hobbies.
The rules don't apply to people like this, not in the way they apply to you or I. What's up is down and what's down is up for billionaires.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:36 PM   #74
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They are part of the Elon Musk umbrella, and they might as well be.

Henry Ford blew all sorts of smoke in his day. This isn't any different. You can't view the guy like a regular CEO or his company like a regular company.



The rules don't apply to people like this, not in the way they apply to you or I. What's up is down and what's down is up for billionaires.
Thanks for making it abundantly clear you do not understand business or publicly traded business. That's all I needed to know.

Cant view the guy as a regular CEO

Hey guys, Elon is a special neat guy who doesn't need to hit forecast, or lower losses to become profitable.


Good god you're naive if you think TESLA can continue to operate in its current fashion. SpaceX might be Elon but it's not Tesla. They are two completely different organizations with no financial ties. SpaceX does not benefit Tesla in any way, shape or form.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:38 PM   #75
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Tell me, what is Elons "vision?" To have a car and solar company that is not profitable with sales declining that eventually gets surpassed by other autos?
Yes. That's exactly what it is.

Google "Tesla Mission Statement" and you get:

"Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible."

bring **** to market as soon as possible, not make money. The funny thing about bringing things to market is that you can't tell people when it's actually going to be done. You have to bull**** them. Again, it's a covert communication that only some people get. If you tell people you're going to be in mass production by some times 18 months from now, you won't get any money. If you tell them you'll be in mass production 6 months, you get money.

Some people understand this; most don't get it.
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