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Old 10-27-2017, 10:31 AM   #1
cianuro
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Default 08 WRX Engine Stalls... No CEL

Possible solution at POST #49. Either way, you might want to read the whole thread in case something relates to you...

Sorry for the long read...
08 WRX TP Stg 2.52 with supporting mods

I've been having an issue over the past few months where the engine shuts down and starts right back up when starting the car cold. When I say cold, I mean after many hours of the engine being off (no snow here). The issue is that it'll be idling during warmup, shuts down (revs go to 0) then goes back to where it was. The engine shuts down physically for at least 1 second. I had gotten used to this behavior, but a while after the behavior changed.

Instead of doing it during warmup, it then started doing the same thing with the car in motion. Like before, it would shut down, probably for less than a second, then came right back up. There were no codes, no CEL, nothing. I started doing logs to see if I could catch the condition in sensor numbers, but everytime it would do this, the Cobb AP instantly went to Communication Error. When I check the logs, all data was cut at the exact moment it happened. There was no indication of anything wrong, no sensor numbers dancing across the table, no knock, etc. Did this for a few weeks and then started doing it a bit differently.

The issue, while the car is in motion, now shuts the engine off, lasting a few seconds, but when it starts again, the dash then shows traction control, abs and hill assist lights on, but no CEL. I shut the car completely off, after I stop, then turn it back up and lights go off. When I say in motion, I mean normal driving, cruising, no wot.

This week was the one event that worried me... The issue happened, engine shut down while in motion, lasted for a few seconds, but instead of starting back up, I saw the Temp needle jump to high, not because the temp was going up, but as if it was loading a map to the ecu, stayed there for about a second, then the engine started and the needle jumped back to its normal position.

From what I've been able to check in the car, I've found that the maf was dirty. Compared readings from logs before and after cleaning it and there's a -0.3 difference in volt readings. I noticed in some logs that the maf was near maxing out, reading up to 4.6-4.7 volts at wot. After cleaning it, volts stay at about 4.3 volts under the same conditions. Cleaning it did nothing to the issue. Had a problem where the maf plug was bad and it would throw "Too Rich Condition". Replaced the plug and this no longer happens. I tried a different oem maf, but the engine still stalls.

The other thing I see is the battery harness, both pos and neg, corroded on the inside. Battery terminals are clean, but looking at where the copper wire meets the terminal, the corrosion is visible. I'll be ordering it this week. Problem with this is that there's a terminal coming from the fuse box that joins with the pos terminal, and that wire is also corroded on the inside, but that piece of wire doesn't seem replaceable. I believe that if this was the issue, I'd be loosing all or some electrical instruments, but dash lights don't go off, headlamps don't flicker or lower intensity (HID oem STi conversion) odometer doesn't reset and radio stays on without loosing memory.

Someone told me the fuel pump might be bad. It's a DW65c, and it's about 5 years old. I've heard of people having issues with this pump, but nothing in the car is pointing me in that direction. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge to check if pressure drops when this happens. When the engines stalls, it just does. It's not fighting trying to stay on as when you're running out of fuel. I assume the "fuel pump duty" read in the Cobb AP is a measure of voltage applied to the pump, and not an actual duty coming from the pump. Am I correct? If so, then I'd expect the log to show pump duty climbing to 100% prior to stalling if the pump was the issue.

I've already checked for vaccum leaks, but my idle is fine, and so are my vaccum readings. My bov was replaced with a newer factory unit a couple months ago because it was leaking and the turbo wouldn't boost past 14psi when it was set to 20psi. I've logged boost since and it's reaching its targets, so I don't think that could be the issue.

I mention all of this to see if someone has gone through the same issue. I'm about to start throwing money at the car, maintenance wise, so I don't want to spend it the wrong way. In short, I'll be ordering a new oem battery harness, a new oem maf, and probably a new DW65c fuel pump (because of the tune). Is there any other sensor or part I should be looking at?
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:23 AM   #2
Charlie-III
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I don't know of a specific issue, but the fact that you lose the AP connection sorta leads me to the positive cable from the battery to the fuse box, either the wire itself or the connection.

Why?
If it was a bad battery, the alternator would still be making volts keeping it running.
If it was the alternator, the battery would keep it running.
Bad power feed would kill spark, fuel pump, ECU, etc.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:41 PM   #3
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That's why I mention the terminal coming from the fuse box. It makes sense that it kills power to engine stuff like fuel pump, coils, rpm signal etc. Here's a video of what it does during warmup:
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:43 PM   #4
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^ what he said. Also check grounds, of course.
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:57 PM   #5
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Grounds grounds grrrrrrrooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnds. Specifically grounds to intake manifold.


My car did the same thing when I had the intake manifold off, car was running then would just stop.

Turns out my driver side ground that bolts to the intake manifold was not tightened down all the way! The bolt was in there but just threaded in a ways.

Tightened it down, immediately resolved the issue.
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Old 10-27-2017, 03:49 PM   #6
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Found a pic of the lower side of the fuse box, and it appears that the wire I mention can be replaced. I'll have to remove black tape and insulation to see where it separates. Looks like I'll be able to just make a new one using the same wire gauge.

As for the grounds, I've never removed my manifold, but I'll look into it. Seeing as the main ground wire coming from the starter to the battery is corroded on the inside, ground will be an issue, even if it's properly tightened.
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Old 10-29-2017, 02:55 PM   #7
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Something new just happened... after it stalled, stayed there for about 10 seconds with the Temp needle in high, as if it was loading a map. CEL flashed a couple times, but still no codes. What's new is that while it was stalled (was doing about 40mph), the battery light came on. Car was in 4th gear, so I went to neutral when it happened, but the engine didn't come back on until I pumped the clutch in 4th while in motion.

The only time I had the battery light come on before was when the alternator belt broke while driving. It makes sense that the positive side is the issue, although both pos and neg cables look corroded.

Already ordered the oem battery harness, but with the situation as it is here in Puerto Rico, might be a while before I get it. I'll take the time to remake all pos wires coming from the fuse box and all the grounds with new wires and terminals when I have the new battery harness. Here's a pic of the corroded pos wires:
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Old 11-11-2017, 12:18 PM   #8
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Update... Here are some pics of what I did to solve the corroded cables issue. So far I've driven less than 50 miles and the engine hasn't stalled. Checked all my grounds to be in good contact and those that I had to remove were wire brushed for better metal to metal contact. I'll update if the engine stalls again.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:23 PM   #9
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Well, let us know what happens for the next week or two. Sorta goes back to my original post.

Not trying to say I hit it, looking for good feedback and a follow up from you for the next person.

BTW, did you try bending the cable down its length? Sometimes a cable like that corrodes inside the insulation. The insulation (plastic) can bubble, but the wire also gets stiff indicating corrosion within. It can carry volts, but not many amps.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Well, let us know what happens for the next week or two. Sorta goes back to my original post.

Not trying to say I hit it, looking for good feedback and a follow up from you for the next person.

BTW, did you try bending the cable down its length? Sometimes a cable like that corrodes inside the insulation. The insulation (plastic) can bubble, but the wire also gets stiff indicating corrosion within. It can carry volts, but not many amps.


That cable had been like that for a while, but it wasn't until I saw the Temp needle behave as if it was loading a map that I related the issue to that. Looking at where it comes from scared me a bit, but when I saw pics of how it was connected I just started to look for ways to fix it. I even contacted subarugenuineparts.com and they told me I had to buy the whole fuse box just to get that cable, which is out of the question.

Someone recommended twisting and bending the cable down its length, but only a few inches were accesible for me to do that, so replacing the cable was the way to go for me.

Tried some halfway pedal pulls, which normally caused the issue instantly and nothing happened. With the miles I put in yesterday and on my way to work today, I think learning should be enough to try wot when I get out of work tonight, assuming I find dry road on my way home. I'll put my camera recording the cluster in case it happens again.

If it does happen again, I'll start looking at the fuel pump and maf which basically are as old as the car.

Thanks for the input. I'll keep updating as I keep testing.
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:59 AM   #11
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No dice... Happened again twice. Had a couple of boost cuts on 3rd gear at mid throttle, nowhere near my boost limits, and these don't stall the engine or do the Temp needle thing. After those, engine stalled first when I was pulling out of the driveway for no aparent reason, but the Temp needle did nothing. Later, going down the highway at about 70mph, engine stalled, and the Temp needle went to high as if it was loading a map again. I left the car in gear and didn't touch the clutch and it started the engine again, now with abs, traction control and hill assist lights on, which I guess happens because the car was in motion with the engine off.

I keep thinking about the fuel pump, but I don't think that relates to the map loading issue. I have the oem pump, so I guess I could test with that without going wot because of the tune and see if it happens again. It normally happens at mid throttle, and only happens once per drive. Meaning, once it happens, it won't happen again until I turn the car off and on again for the next drive. I don't know what else to look for. Had my Cobb AP start logging right before the second stall, so I'll check the logs during the day to see if I find something.

I changed my clutch at the beginning of the year, but I don't remember this happening before the clutch installation. Could something at the trans cause this?
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:22 AM   #12
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it's not the fuel pump. even if your fuel pump had gone out, the dash and a.p wouldn't get the symptoms that you described. i second and third the opinion of others who suggested you look for an electrical related malfunction.
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Old 12-01-2017, 07:37 AM   #13
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Default 08 WRX Engine Stalls... No CEL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scissorhand View Post
it's not the fuel pump. even if your fuel pump had gone out, the dash and a.p wouldn't get the symptoms that you described. i second and third the opinion of others who suggested you look for an electrical related malfunction.


The only electrical issue I've found is a relay holder under the glove box hanging from its wiring, probably from when the a/c was worked on last year. Put it in place and the issue happened again 2 days after. I've tried reseating plugs related to the ecu and other stuff with no success. Also found my "green plugs" and they're not connected.

Found a thread mentioning the crank sensor. A video was posted showing revs dropping to zero and coming back up, no CEL or anything, but being an older model, there was no sign of ecu resetting. Other threads mention the fuel pump control module, but I don't know where that's located in my car, and the immobilizer. The immobilizer cases differ a bit because when the engine cuts, they're not able to start it until they've stopped the car for 30 seconds. Mine starts if I leave it in gear.
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:49 AM   #14
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To update...

It’s been close to 2 weeks with “no issues”. I replaced the crank sensor based on the video I mention above, and because of what the car did after that, I believe this was the culprit, or at least related to it.

I bought a replacement at pepboys for $25. After installing it I drove the car for about 2 days without forcing it. After that I tried several half throttle pulls that used to cause issues, and nothing happened. What was weird is that engine stalled the day after right after starting it cold, doing the Temp neddle thing and everything, but it hasn’t happened again. A week after install, I tried a wot pull in 3rd, and the revs literally jumped from 3500 to 5500 and got a fuel/boost cut (don’t know which exactly), but it hasn’t repeated since.

It’s this behavior after installing a replacement sensor that tells me my crank sensor was faulty, but it also tells me that I should go oem. I will blame the only 2 incidents that happened on the fact that it’s not an oem sensor, which is why I’ll be getting an oem one.

My other theory, assuming this was the culprit, is that one of the gear teeth that this sensor reads could be damaged. I see no reason for it as I’ve never even pulled the belt cover, so I might check that also. When I pulled the oem crank sensor, the end that recieves the teeth signal was all dirty, but I haven’t tested again to check if this dirt was causing bad readings.

I’ll keep posting if there are any changes.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:29 PM   #15
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Jinxed it... Back to the drawing board.

3rd gear pull from 4K rpms and the issue returned. Didn’t take as long as before to come back up, but got the Temp needle, flashing CEL, abs and traction lights on afterwards. Still no codes.
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:54 AM   #16
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To update...

Found ignition coil on cylinder 3 with its connector broken. I pushed it back in and zip tied it and the stalls happening on the video I posted stopped, but I would get fuel cuts every now and then. I replaced that ignition coil only and the stalls were not as frequent as before.

Several weeks ago I installed new coils and plugs, and replaced all connectors for brand new ones, doing the wiring cable by cable so I wouldn’t mees up the pin order. About a week after I got a fuel cut, and this time it finally threw a CEL, misfire on cylinder 2. Seeing as I had just put new coils, plugs and connectors, couldn’t blame it on that. After that installation the car ran prefectly fine up until yesterday, when the same issue as the video happened, stall and temp needle to high as if it was reloading a map, no CEL.

After all I’ve replaced, what else could cause this? I’m looking into injectors, or bad ecu. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:36 PM   #17
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Another update...

Last 3rd of may I started using a different key to run the car and the issue hasn’t occurred since. I upgraded to Cobb AP V3 and noticed that every time the issue happened, the V3 would show a message telling me to check the OBD connector and that the key was in the ON position. After a few times this happened, i inspected the key and noticed that it was pretty worn out when compared to the other copies I have. The other 2 copies I have, one normal and one valet, had never been used since I bought the car and were still in little plastic bags. So far, no more engine stalls. I’m guessing the transponder inside the previous key was going bad. I’m still on the lookout to see if it happens again because although the engine hasn’t stalled again, I’ve felt a few very fast fuel cuts when driving the car in 1st (no wot). These cuts felt more like misfires, but no codes have popped up.

If the issue ever starts again, I’ll have the ignition cylinder replaced and reprogrammed along with new keys.
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Old 07-22-2018, 07:31 PM   #18
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A huge thank you for updating this - someone at some point in time is going to have the exact same issue.

Strange about the key, do you feel like you used it more than average? Seems like it should last a lifetime...
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Old 07-23-2018, 01:18 AM   #19
cianuro
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Default 08 WRX Engine Stalls... No CEL

When it started, my first thought was an issue with the immobilizer. Looked up symptoms about it, but couldn’t find anything specific so I started looking at other causes. It wasn’t until the Cobb V3 showed the key message that I thought about using a different key. The V2 only said “ecu comm error”, so all my thoughts went to something electrical.

The key I was using was the only one I had used since I bought the car and when I put it side by side with the new one, I could see the difference in wear. With all I had tried and all the parts and sensors that were replaced, testing another key would do no harm, so I did. Also, I could feel the difference in play when the key was in the ignition cylinder. I’m thinking the cylinder might also be worn out inside, so when I can I’ll just replace the whole thing and get new keys to be sure.
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:38 PM   #20
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I have no idea if the 08 key cylinder is the same as an 06, but on mine I seem to remember that the transponder reader bit is removable from the actual cylinder. There could be a loose/broken wire or connector in that system also.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:57 PM   #21
cianuro
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Default 08 WRX Engine Stalls... No CEL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Suhrbier View Post
I have no idea if the 08 key cylinder is the same as an 06, but on mine I seem to remember that the transponder reader bit is removable from the actual cylinder. There could be a loose/broken wire or connector in that system also.


Searched for pics and saw that it’s removable, but getting a new one means new keys as well, which would have a different transponder, so they’d have to be reprogrammed. I already checked and a new ignition cylinder runs around $200 with keys and I’d have to take it to the dealer to get it reprogrammed. That will be the last resort.

I don’t think it could be a loose wire or connector because using a different key stopped the issue. If it was that, the issue would happen with any key.
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Old 07-24-2018, 06:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Suhrbier View Post
I have no idea if the 08 key cylinder is the same as an 06, but on mine I seem to remember that the transponder reader bit is removable from the actual cylinder. There could be a loose/broken wire or connector in that system also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cianuro View Post
Searched for pics and saw that it’s removable, but getting a new one means new keys as well, which would have a different transponder, so they’d have to be reprogrammed. I already checked and a new ignition cylinder runs around $200 with keys and I’d have to take it to the dealer to get it reprogrammed. That will be the last resort.

I don’t think it could be a loose wire or connector because using a different key stopped the issue. If it was that, the issue would happen with any key.

OK......Frikkin stop!
Last car I dealt with was a 2015 (not a Subaru, but relevant).
FUBAR lock cylinder for ignition. Bought a kit from RockAuto. Had to CAREFULLY remove the ignition cylinder, then match pins from new cylinder to old key.
When done, all old keys worked, a dealer code key cut would work, immobilizer would work.

The lock cylinder is one part, sensor is another.
Yes, a PITA.
Yes, doable.
No, nothing special other than dealing with tiny bits.

I was subcontracted to a local shop. My price was $40/hr, their price was $85/hr. Total price was below pretty much anyone local. But, I like puzzles, so a price break to the shop.

Then again, I get to use their shop and some tools, so we both benefit.
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Old 07-24-2018, 11:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
OK......Frikkin stop!

Last car I dealt with was a 2015 (not a Subaru, but relevant).

FUBAR lock cylinder for ignition. Bought a kit from RockAuto. Had to CAREFULLY remove the ignition cylinder, then match pins from new cylinder to old key.

When done, all old keys worked, a dealer code key cut would work, immobilizer would work.



The lock cylinder is one part, sensor is another.

Yes, a PITA.

Yes, doable.

No, nothing special other than dealing with tiny bits.



I was subcontracted to a local shop. My price was $40/hr, their price was $85/hr. Total price was below pretty much anyone local. But, I like puzzles, so a price break to the shop.



Then again, I get to use their shop and some tools, so we both benefit.


My concern is not that it can’t be done. I could get a new ignition cylinder and swap the transponder reciever in it, but to change the transponder inside the key I’d have to cut into it, which I won’t do to a new key. The key I was using was worn and the one I’m using now is practically new since I hadn’t even touched it since I bought the car. I believe the inside of the cylinder might be worn as well. Rockauto only carries the electrical switch, not the mechanical part where the key and cylinder meet, which I believe to part of the problem.

The ignition cylinder in these cars use bolts that break when they’re torqued to spec to prevent it from being removed in the future. The service manual shows that the steering column needs to be removed and the bolts drilled into so that the ignition cylinder can be removed and replaced, but looking at ebay pics, I see that sellers cut a notch to the head of the bolt so it can be removed with a flathead screwdriver, making it posible to replace it without the dealer. Still, I’d need to cut into the keys, both old and new ones, to get a matching transponder to be able to use the car.

The other solution, which there’s a thread for here, is changing to Legacy keys, which have the fob integrated to the key and the transponder is removable. That way, I’d only have to cut into the old ones, but should get a Legacy ignition cylinder, which I believe is the same one from ‘11 and up. Still researching...
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Old 07-25-2018, 04:05 PM   #24
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After reading through most of the posts about this issue I think one big clue to the trouble is the temperature gauge reading jumping up. That could be an indication of a bad engine ground. I suggest you go over all the main ground points.

The ECU comm failures do most likely mean a problem with the power to the ECU. Along with the ignition circuit I suggest you check the Main Relay along with any harness plug connections which supplies power to a number of engine related components besides the ECU itself.
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Old 07-26-2018, 04:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cougar4 View Post
After reading through most of the posts about this issue I think one big clue to the trouble is the temperature gauge reading jumping up. That could be an indication of a bad engine ground. I suggest you go over all the main ground points.

The ECU comm failures do most likely mean a problem with the power to the ECU. Along with the ignition circuit I suggest you check the Main Relay along with any harness plug connections which supplies power to a number of engine related components besides the ECU itself.


Everywhere I asked, that was the first thing most suggested. I went through grounds over and over, finding everything to be fine, but still testing them and cleaning contact points just to be sure. All plugs and harnesses I could get to where checked and reseated and made no difference in behavior. I replaced some sensors and it would delay the issue at most, but when it came back, it was with a vengeance, every time getting worse.

This is how the issue started:

It only used to happen during warmup, and for a fraction of a second. When I started checking grounds and harnesses as most suggested, the issue went from only happening during warmup, to happening while driving, either cruising or at wot, but the engine stalled for a few seconds while in motion and in gear. Sometimes I even had to pump the clutch for the engine to start again.

One of my posts shows the work I did on the positive cable I found corroded. All electrical has been checked and rechecked with no different outcome. The only thing that has made a difference is using a different key. 2 months after using a new key and the engine hasn’t stalled like it did. During the course of this week I did get some sort of fuel cut during normal driving in 1st gear, revs almost dropping to zero, but for a fraction of a second and not enough to stall the engine. This tells me that a different key did something, but I still need to check on the ignition cylinder.

I started another thread on a trans issue I have, and since I’m no longer getting stalls, I’m trying to solve that first before I invest in the ignition cylinder and it’s related parts.
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