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08-31-2003, 11:32 AM | #376 | |
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08-31-2003, 11:37 AM | #377 |
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I also see that the HP peaks ~ 1,000 rpms later on the reflashed car.
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08-31-2003, 11:44 AM | #378 |
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And it looks like there's about a max 12 HP loss. But again, you can see that there's at least 20 hp less throughout most of the curve. We need a lot more data! I'll stay with my original (w/very slight pinging on rare occasion on 94 octane), if that proves to be realistic data.
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08-31-2003, 12:15 PM | #379 | |
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It really wasnt much at all: CAI A/F = 10.6-10.8 Drop in = 10.4 - 10.6 The STi runs rich as heck, so no wonder a tenth of a point is good for a couple of HP. The CAI did make the A/F choppy, and the Drop in was much smoother, Go figure. |
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08-31-2003, 12:35 PM | #380 | |
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Truth be known, between it all, it cost us $175.00 to get this data. It also seems we were the first to attempt to obtain such data. 2 different cars 2 different days/ECM's 2 different types of weather conditions I can honestly tell you that this data is anything but conclusive or consistant! If I had the time and resources I would have completed a more controled data collection to begin with. I do think that it was important even to collect this data regardless of the inconsistancy, it does give us a small peek into what is really happening with the reflash. I am no longer considering the Subaru reflash. I will continue to mix race gas, and await for the ROM file for the STi to come out. Then I will reflash, but only a custome tune, not Subarus. |
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08-31-2003, 01:14 PM | #381 | |
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You acknowledge the data was not obtained with much consistency yet you say it gives us a peek into what is going on?!
Certainly the shape of an ignition advance or boost curve might be interesting to compare but your dyno plots don't give us a peek into anything that we can draw any real conclusions from. Certainly it is more scientific than my butt-dyno, but I'd only be interested in seeing dyno plots from the same car, on the same day using the same gas. Speaking of which did both cars get gas at the same gas station, and what octane in each car? Was the reflash pull done on the hot day??? There's no "real" comparative data here... yet. I also bet people (who don't know enough to know what it means) will be saying the reflash loses 20 BHP. I can assure you my butt dyno can detect a 20 BHP loss, at least with the same certainty as your numbers. Glenn PS I never expected the car to have 300 BHP on 91/92 - I am most after reliability. I certainly do hope the reflash keeps the same power on 93/94 for those that can buy it locally. PPS Quote:
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08-31-2003, 01:16 PM | #382 |
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given tha above variables and subaru's commitment to statistical process control, what % of error would one add? +/- 2-3%?
i'll shell out more cash on a controlled experiment - but i won't cover the whole cost as the comparison above was representative enough for me - i find it hard to believe there is THAT much variability in motors produced on a modern mfg line - some knowledgeable input (mine certainly is not) here may help in developing a delta to be used in interpreting the posted dyno plots. a question though, can i swap ecus between cars - as in, is there something unique to these new ecus that would prevent it? my vehicle has the intake silencer cut and a k&n filter, 4500 miles, and i have been using fuel additives to get it to 93/94 octane. it has the SOA reflash. if i can just swap ecus with a non-flashed unit i'm all over it, and it should produce results without having to factor in a +/- degree of accuracy. or the contrary, if someone with a totally stock sti would like to run my flashed ecu in their vehicle, i'll glady drive 110 miles to dyno it and split costs. again, at this point i could care less about warranty issues pertaining to the above. -concerned consumer mike |
08-31-2003, 01:23 PM | #383 |
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It isn't just differences in motors you could be measuring, this is a chassis dyno so it is the driveline as well. Measuring on two different days, even temperature corrected, is not ideal for forced induction cars because they just suck on hot days.
You could have measure the same original ECU car on a very hot day and got a 20 AWHP loss over a cooler day.... I also suggest running the reflash ECU first when the car is cooler and less heatsoak... that way there is no suggestion that the reflash didn't get a fair shake. Glenn |
08-31-2003, 01:23 PM | #384 | ||
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08-31-2003, 01:32 PM | #385 | |
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True - I would have liked to have had a more controled test, but honestly I wouldnt cast stones since NO ONE ELSE even attempted to collect such data. If you can get Subaru dyno charts then show everyone! Until then I believe they dont exsist, at least not to the consumer. If Mike is willing and DynoComp is available I would re-run the test on Mikes car swaping ECU's. But again at who's cost? Just so I can set your mind at ease? Enough data was gathered to make my mind up. Understanding the variance in conditions and cars I can except the 3-4% swag in results. The fact still remains that the reflash doesnt support 91 octane, and so far it shows that Subaru pulled timing or redcued AVS advance or some other table that reduced over all power output. |
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08-31-2003, 01:39 PM | #386 | |
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08-31-2003, 01:41 PM | #387 | |
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I think you wasted your money. Much better to get two cars together on the same day and swap ECUs. It would probably have cost even less dyno time (wouldn't have to move cars around and re-hitch them etc). Glenn PS at least tell us what gas was used in each car and which car was done on the hot day. PPS perhaps somone will use these dyno plots in their class action suit, that would be the perfect irony. (or they'll call 1800SUBARU3 and demand their 20 BHP back) Last edited by ANZAC_1915; 08-31-2003 at 01:47 PM. |
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08-31-2003, 01:50 PM | #388 | |
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There were a lot of cars there, other than ours for a dyno day. Dyno Comp did offer when they get the STi ROM file we can delta dash the cars and record all the ECU parameters. At this moment there is no ETA on when ECUTEK will have the STi ROM file available. This would be the only really conclusive test. But I am sure it still wont be good enough for everyone. I totally agree with you, I want more controled data to compare, but until that day and time comes, this is what we were able to come up with. |
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08-31-2003, 01:50 PM | #389 | |
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are the items you mentioned in a previous post comprehensive enough to produce a plot that you feel will be truly representative for most board members? perhaps the posted plots can stimulate thought processes, a bit of community involvement, and hopefully lead to widely accepted numbers concerning the reflash. i reckon now is the time to get all control points ppl would like to see listed, just like the step you mention above - this is where the beauty of the board really shines if it turns into a major urinating contest - i'll cover all costs just to shut ppl up - so to speak |
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08-31-2003, 02:07 PM | #390 | |
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It wouldnt have cost anyless to swap ECU's, it was $85 for 3 pulls with A/F. Even if the ECU's were swapped, you still have the variable of what the ECU has learned on the non-reflashed car. The reason I didnt swap my ECU with Mike is, I have mixed 95 octane since day one of the "ping" plus the addition of a TBE and CAI. In addition Dyno Comps STi has a AVO turbo upgrade, TBE...at 100 octane....ect ect. So just tossing my ECU or Dyno Comps in a stock car wouldnt have been fair either, unless we drove it around the block for a spell. The base car was dyno'd on a cooler day with 76 100 octane mix to yeild 93-94 octane. The reflash car was dyno'd on a hotter day with zylene mix of 93-94 octane. Also the dyno is supposed adjust for weather conditions and altitude. |
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08-31-2003, 02:09 PM | #391 |
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I think you need to do four pulls:
Car A with 91/92 on reflashed ECU #1 Car A with 91/92 on original ECU #2 Car B with 93/94 on reflashed ECU #3 Car B with 93/94 on original ECU #4 All four ECUs should have run for some time (50 miles?) in the respective cars (with the respective octane) to ensure the ECUs have learned enough. The reason I doubled the effort (needing four cars, two to donate ECUs) is to measure the effect of the change relative to the octane you're running. Or we could just do it in two different cities (one with good gas, one with goat pee). We could do it down the road from me at FAME but I truly can't be bothered because I trust my butt dyno so much. I'm also sure Shiv or one of the other tuners (Nathan nmyeti?) will do it. Glenn |
08-31-2003, 02:10 PM | #392 |
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With all due respect to the effort, the comparison presented has no value whatsoever...and I'm not trying to be overdramatic. To qualify my opinion, I worked in biotech research labs for 12 years, and let's just say I am most familiar with what is required to properly create and evaluate meaningful data.
As others have eluded to, one must eliminate as many variables as possible. The factors you gave, "2 different cars, 2 different days/ECM's, 2 different types of weather conditions" say one thing regarding this data: It's useless. You have all of the greatest variables in regards to conditions which influence results. There is every chance you could have had obtained the exact same findings with the two OEM ECUs with those variables. The only other great variation you don't have is differernt dynos...I'm assuming those runs from the two cars were on the same dyno. Conclusion: Let no one think for a minute that this data comparison has any value whatsoever. Suggested research: Perform dyno on same car at the same time, first with OEM ECU, followed immediately by a swap in with the reflash. Then go back to the OEM ECU (after potential heatsoaking) and do another run. Repeat the same after the car has cooled, then heated to normal operating temp (just not heat soaked), only start with the reflash unit first. Pay special attention to to having a fan on the IC with these runs, as a heatsoaked IC will now be the number one varying factor. |
08-31-2003, 02:12 PM | #393 | |
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I agree, however, I believe it would better to delta dash each car when Dyno Comp gets the ROM file for ECUTEK. There are simply too many variables, and there is no way you will be able to please everyone. I will support and assist in anything that you all want to do to get better data. |
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08-31-2003, 02:13 PM | #394 |
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Speaking of Glenn's butt dyno...
Glenn, how is your reflashed car doing? About a week now on the new ecu? |
08-31-2003, 02:21 PM | #395 | |
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The problem that still remains is the availabilty to proper test vehicles with controled test conditions. Which means that the historical data is not enough to validate root cause. I would have to have a fleet of STi's for at least a week to control as many factors as possible and repeat variables among several different cars to compare data sets. This wasnt possible, thus my statement that the data was not complete or conclusive. But at least the data does exsist, and its less specutalation than the butt dyno with no real facts or data. |
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08-31-2003, 02:25 PM | #396 | |
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And why cant you be bothered? It seems a bit strange to have such strong opinion but not to be bothered with assistance in a solution. |
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08-31-2003, 02:26 PM | #397 | |
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one "fact" - my car would detonate on command after the SOA reflash and 91 octane here in southern az. i'm mixing to 93/94 currently (thanks again porter) and have not heard det, yet. if i switch back to 91 octane, i will have to bring the car in again for a 2nd warranty repair for the same valid complaint - pinging under acceleration. that leaves 1 strike left until the car is technically a lemon under AZ law. customer arbitration board time - their contact information is listed in the back of your owners manual i believe the gas used in my vehicle is chevron 91 octane obtained in tucson, az and mixed with additives to achieve 93/94 octane. i believe my car was done on the "hot" day, but am unaware of the temp on the other run. i would enjoy being the subie lawyer on any class action that used the posted plots as a basis for litigation. whoot! no wasted money in my eyes - i was able to meet other sti owners, subie enthusiasts, and see what _my_ car was doing with the reflash again, if we just get a list of desired control points, and a stock sti volunteer, we can press on with the dyno runs ASAP. i wonder if SOA will allow you to have your ecu returned to the stock map? |
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08-31-2003, 02:31 PM | #398 | |
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08-31-2003, 02:36 PM | #399 | |
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I made some edits to the original posting dyno charts. It was very late and a very long day.
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08-31-2003, 02:46 PM | #400 |
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When performing these tests, in order to take out the "ECU's knowledge" variable you should reset the ECU and then do the "Shiv's speed learn" technique.
When the ECU is reset, the ignition advance multiplier is set to halfway, and then keeps advancing the ignition until max is achieved. (assuming the ECU doesn't detect knock) This can take days or weeks for the car to achieve max power. In order to have truly valid test results, we need to have: 1) controlled testing 2) repeatable results z |
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