Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 4, 2021
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-03-2011, 05:53 PM   #251
Dutch Devotion
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 145985
Join Date: Apr 2007
Default

The gamatiwheel+shaft+billetwheel efr rotational assembly most lilely has a (much) lower inertia than a Garret total rotating assembly therefore spooling faster and being the most responsive of the both.

On the other hand, during gearshifts, you like inertia to keep the assembly spooling. With the EFR assembly lacking this inertia, this is where the special BOV comes in (and the special low friction bearings as well), alowing the compressor to directly run in a "zero delta pressure" environment, therefore taking away as much braking force on the roatting assembly as possible.

Above is my opinion and should not be read as fact

E
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Dutch Devotion; 03-03-2011 at 05:54 PM. Reason: added info
Dutch Devotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 03-03-2011, 08:21 PM   #252
aboothman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 127745
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: CA
Vehicle:
06 WRX 30r 6 speed
99L EJ255 6 Speed

Default

I love all of the engineering talk. I just find it naive to assume that the BW engineers, you know the people PAID to develop this turbo, did not take all of this into account before their first mock up was even made.
aboothman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 08:56 PM   #253
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

I find it naive to assume that Garrett didn't do it either
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 09:05 PM   #254
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I find it naive to assume that Garrett didn't do it either
I do agree with your implied point that a design improvement in one facet of a system (titanium/lighter wheel) may not result in a large change in outcome (spool), as there are other discrete systems at work that affect outcome.
But if you want to get technical about it, BW is not claiming a large improvement in outcome. They're just stating that there are many design improvements. The improved outcome claims are coming from elsewhere.
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 09:22 PM   #255
kellygnsd
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32669
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Woodland Hills
Vehicle:
2007 2.34LR, EFR7670
LINK G4+ hybrid STi

Default

Knowing that the turbocharger is a system and Garrett only felt the need to redisign one part of the system says something too, I just don't know what yet

Either they desigined the compressor wheels to match well with their existing turbine wheels or they just don't give a rats ass about the compressor/turbine relationship.

Last edited by kellygnsd; 03-03-2011 at 09:44 PM.
kellygnsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 09:45 PM   #256
Karl S.
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 30871
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

The only reason a big manufacturer "improves/redesigns" something is because there was something majorly wrong with the part, or, (the main reason is) it will save them money by using cheaper parts (more profit) but they will keep to the "it is better" crap. It is all about the almighty $$$$$$$$
Karl S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 09:56 PM   #257
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl S. View Post
The only reason a big manufacturer "improves/redesigns" something is because there was something majorly wrong with the part, or, (the main reason is) it will save them money by using cheaper parts (more profit) but they will keep to the "it is better" crap. It is all about the almighty $$$$$$$$
It depends largely on the design paradigm of the company. In some agile design paradigms, companies fund experimentation and innovation and use that flexibility to improve products. They see it as investment in the company. More traditional design paradigms is as like you said...fix it if it's broke. It simply depends on the design/development paradigm.

To bring this back on topic however, I think a possible test of the EFR turbine (to look at inertia/mass) is to log deltas in turbine speed and compare that data to the GT30r (assuming you could collect it) because the spool is dependent on other systems coming into play. But then you could compare the rates of acceleration etc... and clearly say that X accelerates faster than Y. The unfortunate part is that the difference in acceleration may not have a large effect on spool. But then it would at least come closer to answering the question of whether the turbine weight affects the accel. and even then you wouldnt be attribute the difference directly to the turbine weight.

To do that youd have to replicate a heavier EFR wheel and measure.
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 10:03 PM   #258
crashtke
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120912
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Jeff is the new actuator out yet? Or are you "engineering" the existing one?
crashtke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 10:43 PM   #259
MrLith
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 274895
Join Date: Feb 2011
Default

In terms of rpm.delta - looks a little like the EFR7670 can support the same flow/pressure ratio as a GTX3076R using a lower shaft speed.... at least from a couple of minutes of glancing over the maps. I could be wrong, but thats the initial impression.

Again, there are so so many variables to consider here and the thing most worth remembering is what defines the performance isn't what makes the turbo spin faster or what makes the boost needle climb quicker on the dyno - its what ultimately results in making the car physically go quicker. To me, thats what it looks like Borg Warner were focussing on when they developed these turbo.

I'm going to put my neck out and say my bet is that on the dyno plot the EFR7670 is going to be equal to (equal to = +/- 3hp for error) or higher than the GTX3076R for at least 80% of the dyno plot - so long as a comparable boost level can be maintained with the internal wastegate. Any other bets?

Last edited by MrLith; 03-03-2011 at 10:48 PM.
MrLith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 12:30 AM   #260
kellygnsd
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32669
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Woodland Hills
Vehicle:
2007 2.34LR, EFR7670
LINK G4+ hybrid STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl S. View Post
The only reason a big manufacturer “improves/redesigns” something is because there was something majorly wrong with the part, or, (the main reason is) it will save them money by using cheaper parts (more profit) but they will keep to the “it is better” crap. It is all about the almighty $$$$$$$$
Those are the lower teir (aka ****ty) companies you speak of. I work in a technology driven field and if companies don't inovate, they don't get new business plain and simple. If you're not moving forward you will get passed by.
kellygnsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 12:55 AM   #261
[email protected]
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 264595
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd

Those are the lower teir (aka ****ty) companies you speak of. I work in a technology driven field and if companies don't inovate, they don't get new business plain and simple. If you're not moving forward you will get passed by.

...+1
raffi@full-race is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 12:55 AM   #262
piddster
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 144285
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Vehicle:
1993 UHEV Legacy

Default

Good points have been made about moment of inertia. Even though the inner race is quite large, it is close to the axis of rotation. The only real way to know the difference between Garrett and BW is to measure it, which I'm sure no one here has the capability to do. So stop bitching at each other already.


What I want to see is dyno plots of both similar turbos where the engine is ran up to about 4k under vacuum, and then the throttle is stabbed. I want to see transient response that is not shown on a typical plot from 2k to 7-8k. The time it takes to get from 20 in of vacuum to 20 psi is what I'm more interested in. Power shmower. I size the wheels according to what I need.
piddster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 03:23 AM   #263
R1Z4T
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 176105
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: NZ
Vehicle:
1912 Alco
Red

Default

How about we stop talking dribble & repeating things over & over and wait for OP to post some real results ?

Sunyvale represent.
R1Z4T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 03:55 AM   #264
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Efr represent
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 06:13 AM   #265
Dutch Devotion
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 145985
Join Date: Apr 2007
Default

i'm not intrested in psi times
i'm intrested in times to reach from 50 to 300hp at the crank, that's ahat counts
20 psi from the efr might flow more than 20 psi of the GTX, or vice versa off course
do "my test" a 100times for turbo and turbo b and you know something
same counts for a vacuum-fullboost-vacuum-fullboost sequence x 100 on a motor test setup, and you can just use the stopwatch to measure overall time who performs the best in this field
measure measure measure
Dutch Devotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 06:50 AM   #266
blakjak00
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 225046
Join Date: Sep 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Snohomish, WA
Vehicle:
2000 2.5RS
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default

Subscribed !
blakjak00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 08:52 AM   #267
thefoos
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 144751
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Granger, IN
Vehicle:
02 WRX BW EFR E85
7064 TS WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
Jeff is the new actuator out yet? Or are you "engineering" the existing one?
What do you mean? I assuming you are speaking to the WGA, which BW already offers 3 variants. I don't see the need for the aftermarket to provide another solution. Perhaps you're refering to something else...
thefoos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 09:07 AM   #268
R1Z4T
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 176105
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: NZ
Vehicle:
1912 Alco
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefoos View Post
What do you mean? I assuming you are speaking to the WGA, which BW already offers 3 variants. I don't see the need for the aftermarket to provide another solution. Perhaps you're refering to something else...
his post was more understandable than your abbreviations. WTF is WGA ?

You have never heard of a wastegate actuator, and since when did people speak to them ?

Stop trying to be impressive

Last edited by R1Z4T; 03-04-2011 at 09:20 AM.
R1Z4T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 09:51 AM   #269
crashtke
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120912
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

I was unsure if they were released yet as we did not get any options when we purchased the two EFR turbos that we bought and have not seen them offered separately. By engineering one, I did not mean making an aftermarket solution, I meant "modifying" the one they had.
crashtke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 10:03 AM   #270
R1Z4T
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 176105
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: NZ
Vehicle:
1912 Alco
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
I was unsure if they were released yet as we did not get any options when we purchased the two EFR turbos that we bought and have not seen them offered separately. By engineering one, I did not mean making an aftermarket solution, I meant "modifying" the one they had.
What is the stock EFR7670 actuator rated at ?

From a fabrication point of view, it's not impossible to make a foreign item fit.
The max achievable pressure shown is pathetic/insulting! hopefully they pull their heads in & solve this
R1Z4T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 10:30 AM   #271
crashtke
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120912
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

20 psi max, but the issue is it starts to crack open too soon, slowing the rate which boost is made. I wonder if throwing a manual on there would change anything or if it would just blow open? My guess is the spring is just too soft and it would blow open. It would be nice to have a choice of actuators (without additional cost) when purchasing the turbo, much like when you buy an external wastegate.
crashtke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 11:54 AM   #272
thefoos
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 144751
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Granger, IN
Vehicle:
02 WRX BW EFR E85
7064 TS WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R1Z4T View Post
his post was more understandable than your abbreviations. WTF is WGA ?

You have never heard of a wastegate actuator, and since when did people speak to them ?

Stop trying to be impressive
If you met me you would realize how impressive I am...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
I was unsure if they were released yet as we did not get any options when we purchased the two EFR turbos that we bought and have not seen them offered separately. By engineering one, I did not mean making an aftermarket solution, I meant "modifying" the one they had.
I have one of the high pressure WGA's on order with my 7064. I'm assuming they are available...
thefoos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 12:05 PM   #273
iheartwrxSTI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169824
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: reno NV
Vehicle:
2005 STI
red and widebody

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefoos View Post
If you met me you would realize how impressive I am...



I have one of the high pressure WGA's on order with my 7064. I'm assuming they are available...
I spoke to Raffi yesterday and he said it would take about 4 days to get.. I will probably order one today but am still in the process of break in on a new motor so it really is not a big deal. i am excited to get some 8374 numbers posted up!
iheartwrxSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 12:19 PM   #274
crashtke
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120912
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

On order and in stock ready to ship are two totally different things Plenty of folks have the twinscroll internally gated 8374 efr on order, but I have yet to hear of one ship out yet! But good to hear these are ready to go. I will have to get one ordered for the car we have here real soon.
crashtke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 12:40 PM   #275
thefoos
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 144751
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Granger, IN
Vehicle:
02 WRX BW EFR E85
7064 TS WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
On order and in stock ready to ship are two totally different things Plenty of folks have the twinscroll internally gated 8374 efr on order, but I have yet to hear of one ship out yet! But good to hear these are ready to go. I will have to get one ordered for the car we have here real soon.
Yep, I hear you. From what I understand, the only thing holding up the TS's are the turbine housings, so I'm assuming all of the other parts are readily available.

For me, its just on order because I ordered a TS, so I don't need the high pressure WGA until I have my turbo as well...

To extend this discussion a bit, have you considered running a restrictor orifice to reduce the pressure to the WGA? The medium pressure WGA is good for ~16psi cracking pressure. Just a thought if you don't have access to a high pressure WGA...
thefoos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Borg Warner Registry, post your BW setup & #'s here. UpSideDownDesi Proven Power Bragging 3173 12-30-2020 05:06 PM
Borg Warner S256 and S362 Turbos AXA Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 49 12-01-2015 10:18 AM
Borg Warner Turbos. Who is running them? DemiSlayer Built Motor Discussion 48 03-23-2010 12:50 AM
small borg warner turbo vid. mattjk Off-Topic 13 07-05-2006 05:25 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2021 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.