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Old 01-24-2021, 12:13 PM   #501
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I'm not very well versed in engine and transmission layouts, but for the BMW example with the long engine, wouldn't it still be better if the engine were farther back? I'm assuming the notation of it being a long engine despite being centered on the axle is to signify that the CoG isn't as good as it could be if the engine were either shorter or farther back.
It would be better and that's how it's laid out in a BMW with AWD. They have a driveshaft that extends much further forward than the misleading Subaru diagram.

Subaru's layout is mechanically simple but it compromises the handling of the vehicle. It's like a 911 in reverse, and EVERYONE gives Porsche s**t for hanging the entire engine behind the rear axle. Early 911's had "exciting" handling characteristics at the limit and were known for snap oversteer. Over the years, Porsche tried to fix the problem in a number of ways, including putting lead weights in the front bumper, while the latest have pushed the engine as forward as possible in conjunction with AWD and electronic stability control to tame the problem. However, it's still there, and there's at least 1 competition "911" with the engine between the axles.

Well, if we're being fair, Subaru should be getting Porsche levels of criticism for essentially the same layout, only with the engine entirely in front of the front axle. AWD Subarus have a propensity to understeer like pigs and this is why. There's only so much that can be done with electronics and gizmos - sooner or later physics wins.
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Old 01-24-2021, 12:25 PM   #502
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That's a very good point. So the ideal setup would be AWD + mid-engine layout? And "mid-engine" just means more than 50% of the engine is between the front and rear axles, correct? So putting the driver and engine between both axles and allowing for a symmetrical AWD system would allow for greater CoG? Why can't Subaru or Porsche place their Boxer engines more mid?

I'm not trying to make any specific point. I'm genuinely interested in knowing. I've read some articles and seen some videos on various layouts over the years, but it's taken a while to comprehend. Recently I've delved more into racing simulators that have helped me to have greater appreciation for different engines and drivetrains and how they affect handling characteristics.
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Old 01-24-2021, 01:34 PM   #503
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I clearly recognized that they were BS. COG (in the x-y plane) is where they were particularly misleading. It was basically a model version of this.



No one actually builds their RWD based vehicles like that. Long engine doesnít matter because the axle position is independent of the engine position in the BMW style setup.

Part of the reason the BRZ/86 handle so well is because the engine is mounted further back relative to the front axles than AWD Subarus. It gets rid of that Ďdog food bag in the front of a shopping cartí effect.
That long engine drawing is a joke.
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Old 01-24-2021, 02:27 PM   #504
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I don't think the Trailblazer has nearly that much engine in front of the axle centerline. Some Audi's may have been close, though.



My point to that was the statement that there was "never" an I-6 in that style setup.






What gets me is they were not to be looked at from a "performance" driving perspective. Yet, of course(I should know better), that's how people here want to view them. It was to show Subaru's low CoG(less likely to roll over) and symmetrical drive shafts(torque steer). As mentioned, electronic gizmos now compensate for stuff like that. Hmmm. Probably why Subaru doesn't focus on that as much and those models haven't been in the dealerships in over a decade.
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Old 01-24-2021, 02:45 PM   #505
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My point to that was the statement that there was "never" an I-6 in that style setup.
I think you may have mis-read his post. He didnít say there were never cars with that setup, he said there were never any accurately represented by that image.
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Old 01-24-2021, 04:13 PM   #506
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That's a very good point. So the ideal setup would be AWD + mid-engine layout? And "mid-engine" just means more than 50% of the engine is between the front and rear axles, correct? So putting the driver and engine between both axles and allowing for a symmetrical AWD system would allow for greater CoG? Why can't Subaru or Porsche place their Boxer engines more mid?

I'm not trying to make any specific point. I'm genuinely interested in knowing. I've read some articles and seen some videos on various layouts over the years, but it's taken a while to comprehend. Recently I've delved more into racing simulators that have helped me to have greater appreciation for different engines and drivetrains and how they affect handling characteristics.
Porsche has achieved this with the mid engine Cayman/Boxter. But basically, the drive axles/differential (front wheels on Subaru, rear wheels on 911) run through the front of the transmission and physically limited on where the axles/wheels can go. They will always have the engine overhang the axles. The Cayman/Boxter have the engine/transmission flipped.

The only way Subaru can push the engine further back and have a mechanical AWD is for them to do a separate transfer case and external front differential but this will not be a symmetrical AWD setup and most likely some packaging issues with the boxer engine.
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Old 01-24-2021, 04:30 PM   #507
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Porsche has achieved this with the mid engine Cayman/Boxter. But basically, the drive axles/differential (front wheels on Subaru, rear wheels on 911) run through the front of the transmission and physically limited on where the axles/wheels can go. They will always have the engine overhang the axles. The Cayman/Boxter have the engine/transmission flipped.

The only way Subaru can push the engine further back and have a mechanical AWD is for them to do a separate transfer case and external front differential but this will not be a symmetrical AWD setup and most likely some packaging issues with the boxer engine.
Oooooh! Okay, now it's clicking what people on here have been complaining about, especially when it comes to front overhang.

I appreciate the clarification.
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Old 01-24-2021, 06:22 PM   #508
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I think you may have mis-read his post. He didnít say there were never cars with that setup, he said there were never any accurately represented by that image.

Sure. OK. I still put the Trailblazer as an example; but, I can't find anything with a diagram of it. And still to my point is they weren't trying to show anything other than high placed engines and unequal, asymmetrical, drive shafts.


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....The only way Subaru can push the engine further back and have a mechanical AWD is for them to do a separate transfer case and external front differential but this will not be a symmetrical AWD setup and most likely some packaging issues with the boxer engine.



I'm sure the cost would be outrageous; but, what if they came up with a system similar to what they used with the Legacy GT300 car?
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:55 PM   #509
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Porsche has achieved this with the mid engine Cayman/Boxter. But basically, the drive axles/differential (front wheels on Subaru, rear wheels on 911) run through the front of the transmission and physically limited on where the axles/wheels can go. They will always have the engine overhang the axles. The Cayman/Boxter have the engine/transmission flipped.

The only way Subaru can push the engine further back and have a mechanical AWD is for them to do a separate transfer case and external front differential but this will not be a symmetrical AWD setup and most likely some packaging issues with the boxer engine.
Subaru teased the "axle forward layout" a few years back, which pushed the front drive axles as far forward as possible, basically right at the clutch/torque converter. I believe Porsche has already done this. Subaru showed it on a concept car and then it was rumored to be happening on the 2015 STi, but it never did. From the looks of it, it pushed the drive axles forward on the transmission case 4 inches or so, which would help but not eliminate the front overhang at the cost of more complexity in the transmission and transfer case...
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Old 01-24-2021, 09:07 PM   #510
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I don't think the Trailblazer has nearly that much engine in front of the axle centerline. Some Audi's may have been close, though.
The B2 Audi chassis (classic Audi 90 Quattro) has an inline 5 hanging way out over the front axle with a (Subaru-like) front diff incorporated into the transmission. Definitely the closest thing I can think of to that image.

BMW and M-B just run the front axle through the oil pan. Seems crazy, but it's worked well for a long time (~33 years now?).

You definitely can't fit both a flat engine and a diff next to each other while keeping the car low. If the BRZ was meant to have AWD, they would have gone with a Toyota inline engine and left room for a diff.

I'm all for Subaru developing a modular I6/I4/I3 engine that could replace the flat engines that keep proving themselves to be the worst feature of the brand as the rest of the world moves on. They aren't Porsche.. their clientele doesn't actually understand enough about what good the flat engines are for to base their buying decision on the engine config.
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Old 01-25-2021, 12:50 AM   #511
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The B2 Audi chassis (classic Audi 90 Quattro) has an inline 5 hanging way out over the front axle with a (Subaru-like) front diff incorporated into the transmission. Definitely the closest thing I can think of to that image.

BMW and M-B just run the front axle through the oil pan. Seems crazy, but it's worked well for a long time (~33 years now?).

You definitely can't fit both a flat engine and a diff next to each other while keeping the car low. If the BRZ was meant to have AWD, they would have gone with a Toyota inline engine and left room for a diff.

I'm all for Subaru developing a modular I6/I4/I3 engine that could replace the flat engines that keep proving themselves to be the worst feature of the brand as the rest of the world moves on. They aren't Porsche.. their clientele doesn't actually understand enough about what good the flat engines are for to base their buying decision on the engine config.

Interesting that the worst feature of the brand helps keep 97% of them sold in the last 10 years on the road today.




Something they've been doing in the 90%ish range for decades. Now, I'm sure it was easier way back when they first started marketing that with their measly sales; but, as there sales have increased 7 fold since those days and that number has crept up......the data seems to disagree with you.





I won't disagree about what the customer actually understands; but, that reliability data is what the customer understands. When they ask why, then they learn.
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Old 01-25-2021, 08:37 PM   #512
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I won't disagree about what the customer actually understands; but, that reliability data is what the customer understands. When they ask why, then they learn.
Customers understand engines that eat oil and headgaskets, and have major recalls for internal engine parts.
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Old 01-25-2021, 09:13 PM   #513
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Customers understand engines that eat oil and headgaskets, and have major recalls for internal engine parts.
I do cringe when I get asked what to "expect" from their car. I am straight honest with them(oil consumption is a common question). I tell them these things and also the fact they may never have and issue. Like most of the customers. Recalls aside......
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Old 01-27-2021, 08:32 AM   #514
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Old 01-27-2021, 02:43 PM   #515
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Now that's what wide fenders should look like. Not these plastic lips they put on edge body,They would have top seller if looks remotely like that
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Old 01-28-2021, 09:07 AM   #516
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Subaru teased the "axle forward layout" a few years back, which pushed the front drive axles as far forward as possible, basically right at the clutch/torque converter. I believe Porsche has already done this. Subaru showed it on a concept car and then it was rumored to be happening on the 2015 STi, but it never did. From the looks of it, it pushed the drive axles forward on the transmission case 4 inches or so, which would help but not eliminate the front overhang at the cost of more complexity in the transmission and transfer case...
Porsche can do it because it is at the back of the car. And I agree with the idea they have started to arrive at the limits of the boxer design. A good inline engine has always out performed the boxer. The Audi/VW 4 has those cars running 11 sec with a tune and IC. The only thing holding those cars back is the limited front camber which is being addressed with the new Golf R along with adding the rear active diff. The Germans, specifically Audi/VW are starting to pull away from the Japanese companies in this segment.
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Old 01-28-2021, 02:44 PM   #517
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Porsche can do it because it is at the back of the car. And I agree with the idea they have started to arrive at the limits of the boxer design. A good inline engine has always out performed the boxer. The Audi/VW 4 has those cars running 11 sec with a tune and IC. The only thing holding those cars back is the limited front camber which is being addressed with the new Golf R along with adding the rear active diff. The Germans, specifically Audi/VW are starting to pull away from the Japanese companies in this segment.
NVH related to the engine was so drastically reduced in my golf R from any subaru I have ever driven in. Like, night and day. Similar story when I compare the outback and highlander. I have a hard time seeing myself going back to a boxer engine, unless it's a porsche... Not that it won't happen, but it'd need to be a really compelling package with no competition. BRZ is kind of in that situation, but I'm watching the new Z car closely too. BRZ would be drastically more compelling to me if Toyota created an I4 for it.
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Old 01-28-2021, 03:00 PM   #518
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[...]The only thing holding those cars back is the limited front camber which is being addressed with the new Golf R along with adding the rear active diff. [...]
Even the front the camber situtation has already been addressed with the GTI Clubsport S front knuckles; a tad over -2 degrees in stock form (thanks to Kostamojen for pointing out).
It's a straight forward bolt-on mod for the Mk7 Golf R.
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Old 01-28-2021, 03:25 PM   #519
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NVH related to the engine was so drastically reduced in my golf R from any subaru I have ever driven in. Like, night and day. Similar story when I compare the outback and highlander. I have a hard time seeing myself going back to a boxer engine, unless it's a porsche... Not that it won't happen, but it'd need to be a really compelling package with no competition. BRZ is kind of in that situation, but I'm watching the new Z car closely too. BRZ would be drastically more compelling to me if Toyota created an I4 for it.
I get what you are saying. It seems like most cars are much better than Subarus from a nvh perspective.

However, isn't this what enthusiasts complain about, the disconnected feel cars have? We have a massive market of group n, poly, and solid mounts to bring back the feel.
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Old 01-28-2021, 03:35 PM   #520
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Newer Subies have done a better job of NVH. Usually the Limited or Touring trims get special glass and such. Just depends on the model and trim combo. I'm not looking at BRZ, Impreza, Crosstrek, WRX, STI or Forester to be very quiet because I think NVH is lower priority at those price points. Ascent, Outback and Legacy? Yes, I do expect a much quieter ride.
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Old 01-28-2021, 04:29 PM   #521
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I get what you are saying. It seems like most cars are much better than Subarus from a nvh perspective.

However, isn't this what enthusiasts complain about, the disconnected feel cars have? We have a massive market of group n, poly, and solid mounts to bring back the feel.
The point of the mounts are to reduce drivetrain flex, not to increase NVH. Increased NVH is a byproduct. Mount equivalent boxer and I4 on solid mounts and drive 'em... guaranteed the I4 turbo will be a lot smoother.

I guess I'm just at a point in life where I want a refined feeling car, one that is quick and has a MT, but the boxer engine inherently screws this up. I'll give the brz a shot, but I'm guessing that my desire for refinement will push me to a different car that isn't boxer based.
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Old 01-29-2021, 09:26 PM   #522
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Porsche can do it because it is at the back of the car. And I agree with the idea they have started to arrive at the limits of the boxer design. A good inline engine has always out performed the boxer. The Audi/VW 4 has those cars running 11 sec with a tune and IC. The only thing holding those cars back is the limited front camber which is being addressed with the new Golf R along with adding the rear active diff. The Germans, specifically Audi/VW are starting to pull away from the Japanese companies in this segment.

To each their own, I had the EA888 gen1 and gen3 and FA20DIT. I like the FA more. Also, doubt the Japanese companies have anything to worry about, the competition cannot figure out how to properly engineer a water pump after a decade.

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Old 01-29-2021, 09:48 PM   #523
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Newer Subies have done a better job of NVH. Usually the Limited or Touring trims get special glass and such. Just depends on the model and trim combo. I'm not looking at BRZ, Impreza, Crosstrek, WRX, STI or Forester to be very quiet because I think NVH is lower priority at those price points. Ascent, Outback and Legacy? Yes, I do expect a much quieter ride.
My 2018 outback limited with 9,000 miles has a similar amount of interior rattles as my 2008 Civic SI with 60,000. Subaru is an awd system stuck in a completely otherwise below par package.
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Old 01-29-2021, 10:01 PM   #524
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All my 7 VW's were rattle boxes, we had 4 Subarus in the family that were superior in quality in every way.
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Old 01-29-2021, 10:40 PM   #525
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All my 7 VW's were rattle boxes, we had 4 Subarus in the family that were superior in quality in every way.
If thatís true, then your VWs must have been total ****.
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