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Old 09-05-2014, 07:21 PM   #51
neg_matnik
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^ I think wiUFsh asks us to let the thread "play out" while he has pretty much already decided he'll stick with Resource/Energy Conserving 5W30 oils in his '15 WRX because Subaru says so.
Personally, I'd use anything BUT a Resource/Energy Conserving oil in the FA20DIT or in any other 2.0L turbo engine with a high specific output.
But, hey, let's see how this plays out.
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Old 09-05-2014, 07:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by wiUFsh View Post
You can use a UOA to determine if the oil has not sheared or not. In this respect we can determine which oil will hold up the best in this new engine. I find it amusing how you use the term "weaker". That is a subjective comment that has no fact based evidence for this new engine. Perhaps the engineers who have designed the FA20DIT have determine the extra additives are unnecessary. I say again, please let this thread play out and please stick to the facts. Once a few UOAs have been posted we can address these topics.
If you are hung up about using ONLY what is recommended in the holy manual, by all means do so. And you seem to think THIS engine is SO DIFFERENT from anything else SUBARU has produced.... it's not. REALLY... DI is new, as is the timing chain... and thats it.

But please stop with the SUBARU knows best rant you seem to be on... forums are about discussion and debate, get used to it.

Cheers.
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Old 09-05-2014, 07:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
^ I think wiUFsh asks us to let the thread "play out" while he has pretty much already decided he'll stick with Resource/Energy Conserving 5W30 oils in his '15 WRX because Subaru says so.
Personally, I'd use anything BUT a Resource/Energy Conserving oil in the FA20DIT or in any other 2.0L turbo engine with a high specific output.
But, hey, let's see how this plays out.
it'll play out fine. RC or not, the engine is going to last 200,000 miles as long as the oil gets changed often enough. RC oils are used all over the industry and cars don't blow up left and right. does it matter? yeah probably a bit. will it make much of a difference? no. not really. i want receipts to prove to subaru i used oil that matches their spec in case of a claim/dispute. after the warranty is up i'm not running an RC oil either.

its not necessarily about Subaru knows best (though there is something to that, once you carve away the government BS) - its more about being in a good position in case of a dispute with the manufacturer. once the warranty is up, i will care much less about what Subaru has to say about oil
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Old 09-05-2014, 07:59 PM   #54
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it'll play out fine. RC or not, the engine is going to last 200,000 miles as long as the oil gets changed often enough. RC oils are used all over the industry and cars don't blow up left and right. does it matter? yeah probably a bit. will it make much of a difference? no. not really. i want receipts to prove to subaru i used oil that matches their spec in case of a claim/dispute. after the warranty is up i'm not running an RC oil either.

its not necessarily about Subaru knows best (though there is something to that, once you carve away the government BS) - its more about being in a good position in case of a dispute with the manufacturer. once the warranty is up, i will care much less about what Subaru has to say about oil
Hey, I agree, I follow Subaru's oil recommendation to the T in my Forester 2.5X.
I'm not going to give Subaru any excuses to deny engine warranty claims (especially because that FB25 engine like to burn 1 to 1.5 qt in-between oil changes...).
But, I think Subaru tends to recommend an oil that will maximize fuel economy when the vehicle is operated in non-severe / moderate conditions; once the vehicle is operated outside of these conditions the recommended oil is often barely adequate. That's fine because most people won't operate their WRX in severe conditions (although, I feel like Subaru should not be making this assumption).
But, for the few that will operate in severe conditions, it would be prudent to use an oil designed primarily for protection instead of fuel economy.
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:15 PM   #55
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it'll play out fine. RC or not, the engine is going to last 200,000 miles as long as the oil gets changed often enough. RC oils are used all over the industry and cars don't blow up left and right. does it matter? yeah probably a bit. will it make much of a difference? no. not really. i want receipts to prove to subaru i used oil that matches their spec in case of a claim/dispute. after the warranty is up i'm not running an RC oil either.

its not necessarily about Subaru knows best (though there is something to that, once you carve away the government BS) - its more about being in a good position in case of a dispute with the manufacturer. once the warranty is up, i will care much less about what Subaru has to say about oil
You sir...are wise beyond your join date and post count.
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:19 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
^ I think wiUFsh asks us to let the thread "play out" while he has pretty much already decided he'll stick with Resource/Energy Conserving 5W30 oils in his '15 WRX because Subaru says so. Personally, I'd use anything BUT a Resource/Energy Conserving oil in the FA20DIT or in any other 2.0L turbo engine with a high specific output. But, hey, let's see how this plays out.
Downside to using a thicker oil.... ummmmmm, none really.

Downside to an RC oil shearing down to a 20 grade in the first couple thousand miles... in a turbo, power dense engine with DI and a timing chain... time will tell.

But if I were to gamble with my engine... I would choose the low risk option... !

Buy a 5w30 oil, save receipt, sell it to your buddy/girlfriend, and put in a better oil. Now you have a receipt should anything happen.

Simple.
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Old 09-05-2014, 10:39 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
Hey, I agree, I follow Subaru's oil recommendation to the T in my Forester 2.5X.
I'm not going to give Subaru any excuses to deny engine warranty claims (especially because that FB25 engine like to burn 1 to 1.5 qt in-between oil changes...).
But, I think Subaru tends to recommend an oil that will maximize fuel economy when the vehicle is operated in non-severe / moderate conditions; once the vehicle is operated outside of these conditions the recommended oil is often barely adequate. That's fine because most people won't operate their WRX in severe conditions (although, I feel like Subaru should not be making this assumption).
But, for the few that will operate in severe conditions, it would be prudent to use an oil designed primarily for protection instead of fuel economy.
yes i think all manufacturers do this; they are under pressure to meet mileage requirements/CAFE, etc. for most vehicles, not driven like crazy, this makes plenty of sense and when measured over the US vehicle fleet, it adds up to savings that matter. if the world's gold toyota camrys are running RC oil, that's probably better for everyone and that engine is going to run forever as long as the oil gets changed. it'a Toyota for chrissakes. now, for enthusiasts like us, i don't think there is anything wrong with searching for a better oil; i just think the differences/benefits may be exaggerated in forum-land.

don't get me wrong; i still read what i could and learned alot from different folks, including uncle scotty until the d00000d crap just got too much for me. lots of great info here...but among quality oils the differences are just too minor to waste so much energy on the topic.

honestly, the whole oil thing is like any other practice where the cause/effect relationship is not immediate and littered with extra variables. nutrition, and how it relates to the diseases people get, is the same way. people have all sorts of ideas and thoughts and claims; all very hard to prove and disprove. overall, yes - garbage in - garbage out. you eat like crap you gonna die sooner on average...and if you're running dino oil in a turbo car, its probably going to have problems. people get lost in the minutiae....if you watch your calories and try to eat right, you're probably going to be fine. you can probably put away the organic gluten free flax seed mush or whatever the hell people who have too much money eat...and focus on the basics. similarly.... just change your oil often enough (and no i dont mean every 3k miles; thats just pissing away money) and use a quality product...its GONNA BE OK!

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You sir...are wise beyond your join date and post count.
thank you, kind sir. hope this post hasn't caused you to reconsider your generous words.
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Old 09-06-2014, 12:09 AM   #58
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Hey guys. I'm not stuck on using energy conserving oils. I am simply trying to determine what non-OEM oil is best under daily driving conditios with the occasional beat run here and there.

I'm currently using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30 which is a fairly new oil that is produced from natural gas. This means it's not 100% synthetic like Mobil 1 is. I'm simply curious as to what my UOA results will be. Nothing more.

Timing chains are not new to Subaru. My wife's 2011 Forester 2.5X has the FB25 engine in it. To the best of my knowledge this was one of the first new-gen 2.5L N/A engines that was made with DOHC and a timing chain. In any case, it does use a timing chain. It's easy to tell which Subarus use a chain by seeing a metal timing cover, not a plastic one like the EJs have.
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Old 09-06-2014, 04:27 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by wiUFsh View Post
Hey guys. I'm not stuck on using energy conserving oils. I am simply trying to determine what non-OEM oil is best under daily driving conditios with the occasional beat run here and there. I'm currently using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30 which is a fairly new oil that is produced from natural gas. This means it's not 100% synthetic like Mobil 1 is. I'm simply curious as to what my UOA results will be. Nothing more. Timing chains are not new to Subaru. My wife's 2011 Forester 2.5X has the FB25 engine in it. To the best of my knowledge this was one of the first new-gen 2.5L N/A engines that was made with DOHC and a timing chain. In any case, it does use a timing chain. It's easy to tell which Subarus use a chain by seeing a metal timing cover, not a plastic one like the EJs have.
The differences between any brand name synthetic oil in a 5w30 RC formula is minimal. Another well known, but somewhat abrasive member here would say they ALL suck... If you choose to run this oil, buy whatever is on sale...!

There are , however, bigger differences between an RC oil and, for example, a "euro" oil, or a HDEO oil.

And, what does 100 % synthetic mean to YOU? Do some research on Mobil 1 , and see if you still believe it is 100% synthetic..
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Old 09-07-2014, 02:36 AM   #60
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Would you guys consider 219F hot for oil temp? That's the highest I've seen it go. Using Amsoil XL


Sent from my iPad using NASIOC
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Old 09-07-2014, 03:39 AM   #61
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Would you guys consider 219F hot for oil temp? That's the highest I've seen it go. Using Amsoil XL Sent from my iPad using NASIOC
180-220 is prime temp
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:40 AM   #62
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Would you guys consider 219F hot for oil temp?
Sounds like a normal operating temp to me.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:23 PM   #63
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alright...i actually have a UOA to post! I drained the factory fill at 2K miles and sent it in to Blackstone. Here is the UOA.



The interesting thing is that...contrary to prior info...it would seem that the factory fill may actually be some kind of break in oil?

I went ahead and had a TBN done as well; it seems that this oil definitely had more life in it than the 2K miles it did. Not surprising; it looked great coming out...

Last edited by quantum13; 12-17-2017 at 05:30 PM. Reason: fix image link
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:38 PM   #64
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Finally!!! Somebody adding something useful to this thread.

It seems you have less of every everything from Moly down (except the small numbers) and more of everything from Tin up, except for aluminum. Your flash point is higher but your viscosity is less. Could these results be because you left your oil in longer?

Also, thank you for doing a TBN. Good info for sure.
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Old 09-09-2014, 11:27 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by wiUFsh View Post
Finally!!! Somebody adding something useful to this thread.

It seems you have less of every everything from Moly down (except the small numbers) and more of everything from Tin up, except for aluminum. Your flash point is higher but your viscosity is less. Could these results be because you left your oil in longer?

Also, thank you for doing a TBN. Good info for sure.
haha yeah you didn't think you could post an oil thread on NASIOC w/o getting your hands dirty, did ya? in all seriousness though, i am glad to be able to finally post this.

anyway, it could be that its because the oil was in there longer; that seems an obvious conclusion. perhaps the more experienced members can comment on how that viscosity it looking after that many miles? i'd be curious to know how the AmsOil XL would look after 2k miles by comparison. i wont be changing the AmsOil at 2K miles but i guess i could pull a sample. i really am curious if it's any better than the Subaru stuff - though i suppose there is no point to comparing to factory fill; its not like you can buy that stuff anyway.

i did the TBN because i wanted the full picture on how long that factory fill should be able to last in the car. it seems clear from the evidence that it's really not necessary to change the oil at 2K miles but what the hell; might as well get all that crud outta there...they pretty much said as much.
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:13 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by quantum13 View Post
alright...i actually have a UOA to post! I drained the factory fill at 2K miles and sent it in to Blackstone. Here is the UOA.

The interesting thing is that...contrary to prior info...it would seem that the factory fill may actually be some kind of break in oil?

I went ahead and had a TBN done as well; it seems that this oil definitely had more life in it than the 2K miles it did. Not surprising; it looked great coming out...
Nice 20 grade there. No way in hell I'd run that factory fill 3750 or whatever miles the manual specs. Tbn be damned. And visual appearance be damned - when will this wives tale die??? Why not taste it? Lol. My RT6 comes out after 6k as black as hell and ... TESTS beautifully.

The high moly is from build lube remnants and maybe the virgin oil, prolly.
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:50 AM   #67
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interesting point; worth considering. might not be crazy to run 40w in Texas.

that said - lets please not let this turn into your typical oil thread

i can just see where this is going... before long someone is going to start talking about rotella t6 and gear oil cocktails...haha

one of the biggest issues with THE young and dumb pups is that THEY dont realize that some of us have become VERY knowedgeable about these kinds of things after studying them for...mmmm..well...over 10 years, now....and that study is ONGOING.....

and SOMETIMES it behooves the chumps and idiots and kiddie boiz and all the rest of the kiddie hangers on to STOP with THEIR bullsh it and REMEMBER that some of us have been trained and schooled mechanics for longer than YOU have been ALIVE.

so lets not turn this into a kidiot fest with all sorts of inane comments by the kiddie, KNOW NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT LUBRICANTS AND LUBRICATION, krew



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Old 09-10-2014, 07:16 AM   #68
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I wondered how long it would take....
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Old 09-10-2014, 08:00 AM   #69
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Default 2015 WRX Used Oil Analysis Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by quantum13 View Post

The interesting thing is that...contrary to prior info...it would seem that the factory fill may actually be some kind of break in oil?

I went ahead and had a TBN done as well; it seems that this oil definitely had more life in it than the 2K miles it did. Not surprising; it looked great coming out...

So pretty much like I called it, eh? Right down to the lower moly and ZDDP.

I've long said that the factory fill is a break-in oil and email correspondence a couple of years ago with Idemitsu Lubricants of America pretty much confirmed this. Yes, some may be from assembly lube but some is from the factory fill oil.

My main question is whether or not Idemitsu has reduced ZDDP in the FF. They have if these numbers are accurate. Of course, no surprise in the viscosity.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 09-10-2014 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:11 AM   #70
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Welp, I'm out, at least for now. I feel I have benefitted from the knowledge posted by Uncle Scotty and others in the past but the level of discourse in these threads just gets to where I'm not willing to engage. It's not about being offended or wondering if maybe suddenly now I've realized that maybe I AM a complete moron after all...no, it's not that at all. Its about having civil discourse. Wealth of knowledge or not, participating in a conversation where the first contribution from an experienced forum member references you dumb n00bs or whatever isn't the conversation for me. In any case, RIP this thread.

US - you might consider that the wealth of knowledge you so CLEARLY have...is completely negated by the way you communicate with others. You have no chance of educating all those dumb n00bs when that's how you expect to win them over. You might also consider that we aren't all 20 year old little ****s, but actual professionals with jobs and families...most of us don't deal with people that communicate the way you do in our own lives; why should this be any different?

Last edited by quantum13; 09-10-2014 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:15 AM   #71
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Oh and thank you Dennis for your contribution. You are clearly knowledgeable as well and I appreciate your ability to share knowledge without needing to remind everyone of how awesome you are and how dumb everyone else is. Over time, inputs like yours and our OWN experiences...like getting our own UOAs done will bring us more overall experience and knowledge on this topic.

On forums, you often see multiple opinions about a topic; you don't know which is fact until you get out there and learn for yourself. That, to some degree, just takes time.

And i do want to specifically say that, yes, I know color doesn't relate to oil quality. Dark oil of course can test great. I simply commented on the fact that the oil still looked so new.

Would you do the thread one favor and perhaps let us know how to interpret viscosity? I saw two comments that suggest that the oil had sheared down somewhat and that this was not surprising. I wanted to see how fast that happens but don't really know what numbers translate to what you'd typically see in a 20w, 30w, 40w, etc. I know the thread could really benefit from that information as future posters post their UOAs.

Last edited by quantum13; 09-10-2014 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:48 AM   #72
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I just changed my factory oil last night after 5000 miles. Replaced with mobil 1. I would have taken a sample for Blackstone but it came out too fast and I was frightened. I'll send them a sample of the M1 after I put 5k on it, probably February after I get back from Sno*drift. And assuming the car lasts that long
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:26 PM   #73
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Would you do the thread one favor and perhaps let us know how to interpret viscosity? I saw two comments that suggest that the oil had sheared down somewhat and that this was not surprising. I wanted to see how fast that happens but don't really know what numbers translate to what you'd typically see in a 20w, 30w, 40w, etc. I know the thread could really benefit from that information as future posters post their UOAs.
30 grade oils have a viscosity range of 9.3 -12.49 cSt's.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

Anytime the oil falls below 9.3 it has sheared to a 20 grade (or perhaps it hasn't sheared, but it could be thinner due to fuel dilution). Since we do not know the starting viscosity of the factory fill oil, we really don't know if it is actually shearing or if it is a 20 grade to begin with. I've never seen the ff come back as a 30 grade.

I've seen comments from others that the EPA(?) requires manufacturers to ship a car from the factory, and test it on the mpg dyno, with the same oil grade they recommend in the owners manual. Idemitsu could easily create a 30 grade oil with a viscosity of 9.3 and with a low HTHS that is pretty much guaranteed to shear after a little use (starting the engine ).

Blackstone will tell you that as long as your uoa wear metals are normal, then there are no worries when the oil shears to a 20 grade. What a uoa or even oil pressure cannot tell you is whether or not the oil film is sufficient for all of your driving conditions (like when you really put your foot into it or if there is some detonation). BTW, Blackstone doesn't actually test for fuel. They base the result on an extrapolation of the flashpoint reading.

Here is some more good info about shearing:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/effects-of-shearing/
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/states-of-lubrication/

And for those lurking around bitog, don't bother reading Motor Oil University. It was written by a plastic surgeon with deep pockets and people in the industry have stated some of the info is wrong. In general, there is some good info in the forums by Molakule, Solarent, and Shannow. Shannow provides a lot of good feedback (from a bearing design standpoint) in the thin oil vs thick oil debates (75% of the threads there!).

Maybe I'll post some excerpts from the Idemitsu email about factory fill later.

-Dennis
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:46 PM   #74
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great info Dennis thank you. very very helpful. this will definitely help me and others i'm sure. given that the oil is quite thin now, i can see why running it longer than 2k miles isn't a great idea even if other parameters look 'OK'
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:02 PM   #75
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Run quantum. Run far away. Don't get sucked back in.
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