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Old 06-12-2019, 12:36 PM   #376
F1EA
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Originally Posted by Counterfit View Post
I'm not sure what people expect him to have done to rejoin any safer than what he did. Grass doesn't exactly have much grip.
What do you mean?

1. He was not on grass when he squeezed Lewis to the wall.
2. He should know grass has no grip, and if he hits grass.... he's the one who needs to make the corrections when rejoining.
3. He was fighting for position, not trying to rejoin safely. He said it himself. He was trying to keep Lewis behind. Turns out he kept him behind by eliminating the space between his car and the wall. Would have been perfectly fine and pretty great had he not been rejoining from an off. Under any other situation, he could have taken that line with no problems.

It was pretty marginal too. A matter of a couple of metres for him being able to get away with just a warning.
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:55 PM   #377
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Vettel was the car aheadoff the track. Why is it on him to avoid Lewis if Lewis is behind? If Lewis wasn't behind how did He know he needed to slow to avoid Seb?

without seeing the video a position swap strikes me as much more ideal.

Not like I've been complaining about Stewards heavy handed decisions. As though someone ruined their race so they have to ruin others.
As the guy above states, Seb is the one who made an error and went off. If you don't do something to rule against this, then any time someone has an off, they're going to intentionally do this in order to try to save their position. Since you don't want people intentionally unsafely re-entering to defend positions, you have to enforce some sort of penalty on them. Of course you can always say "I was off the track, so I had no grip!"

I do agree a position swap would have been more appropriate, but given the pace of each car, I don't think it would have made a difference in the 1/2 race.

Seb can be mad but he can't legitimately blame anyone but himself for going off the track and giving up his lead.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:20 PM   #378
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He WAS making corrections on rejoining. So he didn't spin, or hit the wall, or Lewis for that matter. Like I said, this is not a modern cookie-cutter Tilke track where the "run-off" is just more track painted a different color which has caused them to make these stupid rules about 'gaining advantage' and whatnot.

Rejoining safely is about not having a car that's spun off enter the track @ 30 KPH in front of cars doing 150+. It is NOT about stipulating that you must cede your position when engaged in a 1 on 1 dogfight and make a mistake that the trailing car fails to capitalize on.

I want to see more of these cars driven on their limits, and a whole hell of a lot less tire management and pit stop window strategy. It's boring as ****. The modern cars suck when driven at their limits; out of balance, twitchy, stupid messes optimized for nothing but aero, which makes passing (or just being near) even dramatically slower cars a hazardous proposition. So the FIA steps in to make it all "safe" with rule Band-Aids which just mean we never get to see real racing, or it ends like Montreal on the rare occasion we do. Indycar with it's spec everything and 7 year old homologated chassis is about 100X more exciting to watch than current F1. Hell, the Netflix show about the 2018 F1 season was more interesting than the actual 2018 F1 season.

TLDR: Kill aero. Should've been done 15 years ago. Racing might come back once the cars can safely get w/in 1-2 lengths of each other again without it ruining how they drive.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:32 PM   #379
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Rejoining safely is about not having a car that's spun off enter the track @ 30 KPH in front of cars doing 150+. It is NOT about stipulating that you must cede your position when engaged in a 1 on 1 dogfight and make a mistake that the trailing car fails to capitalize on.
What if these two things are the same, as it was in this instance? Seb knew where Hamilton was, and he knew where the racing line is, and he knew the speed difference. If Hamilton hadn't had the good sense to stop and raise it into the stewards - IE: Had this been Verstappen, Bottas, Ricci, etc there's a very good chance this would've resulted in a dramatic accident, which would have also been Seb's fault, not the car behind's.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:03 PM   #380
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Then make the cars swap places on track and let the race continue, see if Vettel can win the position back.

A 5s time penalty, the same penalty that would apply for actually causing the crash that didn't happen, is totally inappropriate. It's handing the race to Hamilton, period. Unless you think there's a likely scenario where the best machine on the grid somehow wouldn't be able to maintain within 5s of the lead car, knowing full well that was the only condition necessary to win.

Once again, it falls on the side of allowing clever management to win and discouraging on track heroics. The opposite of what this sport needs. IMO, of course, but I'm pretty comfortable with my company in that, judging by the response to the whole thing.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:16 PM   #381
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A 5s time penalty, the same penalty that would apply for actually causing the crash that didn't happen, is totally inappropriate. It's handing the race to Hamilton, period.
huh?
5s is the MINIMUM penalty in F1. For a crash he would have gotten something like a stop and go or a 20s.

Handing the race to Hamilton?
Double huh.

Vettel had the opportunity to:
1. Cede the position
2. Open a 5s+ gap.
3. Rejoin safely (ie give Ham the mandatory room) and forcing him to MAKE the pass stick.

But agree. Handing the race to Hamilton indeed it was. (the mistake, not the penalty).

It was good for the show though. Last race in Monaco... what do you think Verstapen was trying for? and what happened? nothing. Yawn.
Yeah, that's the difference. No mistake when in the lead. Which is what champions can do.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:52 PM   #382
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"No mistakes while in the lead is what a champion can do"??? These guys are both multi world champions. That's a poster slogan.

No mistakes means they're not being pushed. Hamilton was making mistakes right and left keeping up with and trying to pass Vettel before he knew he had a safe 5s cushion to play with. Mistakes are good. But they need to play out on the track. A mistake from a driver ahead does not entitle the car behind to the position ahead. You seem to think that the position was Hamilton's just because Vettel made an error. That's not how racing works. And if it is, then I agree with the live commentators that we might as well not bother at this point.

I know 5s is the minimum penalty under current F1 rules. If this is how the rules are going to be used, it shouldn't be. It's like you think the FIA doesn't just make up its own rules and then (arbitrarily) decide how they're enforced. It does, and it's gotten completely out of hand.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:58 PM   #383
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Hamilton wasn't entitled to the spot for any reason other than he would have passed him in every possible scenario other than him stopping to avoid a massive accident that Seb would have caused. If Hamilton had been 3 seconds behind him rather than less than 1 second, it wouldn't have been a consideration. The "might as well not bother" makes no sense. You can't be within a 5 second margin of 1st place if you aren't "bothered".
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:02 PM   #384
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Talked to a co-worker yesterday and he had driven down to Chicago to check out the F1 festival as well. He was incredibly disappointed. As you said there wasn't much to do or see. He also said most of the older F1 cars they brought out for show / demo wound up broken and not running. While he was there watching the only vehicle running was the 2-seat V10 hot-lap car.
yeah, seems to be the consensus. The recovery tow truck driver got the biggest round of applause everytime he came out.

That 2 seater V10 sounded hrggggggggggggggggggnnnnnnnnnnnn in person.

I need to get my videos uploaded do you guys can here it
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:46 PM   #385
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"No mistakes while in the lead is what a champion can do"??? These guys are both multi world champions. That's a poster slogan.

No mistakes means they're not being pushed. Hamilton was making mistakes right and left keeping up with and trying to pass Vettel before he knew he had a safe 5s cushion to play with. Mistakes are good. But they need to play out on the track. A mistake from a driver ahead does not entitle the car behind to the position ahead. You seem to think that the position was Hamilton's just because Vettel made an error. That's not how racing works. And if it is, then I agree with the live commentators that we might as well not bother at this point.

I know 5s is the minimum penalty under current F1 rules. If this is how the rules are going to be used, it shouldn't be. It's like you think the FIA doesn't just make up its own rules and then (arbitrarily) decide how they're enforced. It does, and it's gotten completely out of hand.
There's mistakes, and then there's mistakes. If you can't tell the difference then... what can I say.

Hamilton wasn't entitled the position. He wasn't given the position either. Vet got a 5s penalty. This is NOT the position; very different. Again, if you don't know the difference......

Whether the rules should or should not be... that's not the point.

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Old 06-12-2019, 05:01 PM   #386
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Hamilton wasn't entitled to the spot for any reason other than he would have passed him in every possible scenario other than him stopping to avoid a massive accident that Seb would have caused. If Hamilton had been 3 seconds behind him rather than less than 1 second, it wouldn't have been a consideration. The "might as well not bother" makes no sense. You can't be within a 5 second margin of 1st place if you aren't "bothered".
Had Hamilton been 3secs behind, Vet would have rejoined with no issues ahead. He would have gotten a 'warning' for leaving the track and that's it. Lewis would have forced him into another one later on
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:46 AM   #387
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Had Hamilton been 3secs behind, Vet would have rejoined with no issues ahead. He would have gotten a 'warning' for leaving the track and that's it. Lewis would have forced him into another one later on
Now you are just speculating. I give it 50-50 odds at best.

Looking back at the matter and how everything played out, I think it might have been better if Vettel had lost it and wrecked them both in that corner. It's not like it hasn't been done before.

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