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Old 06-10-2019, 06:14 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Subaru Won’t Honor Warranty If E15 Gas Is Used

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ummer-gasoline

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...kers/index.htm

E15 gasoline blend good for farmers; bad for engines


Reactions are mixed to the Trump administration’s Environmental Protection Agency lifting a summertime ban of E15, a gasoline blend made of 15 percent ethanol.

Corn and soybean farmers praise the action while officials in the boating industry criticize it, saying gasoline with 15 percent ethanol will damage marine engines.

Don LaBar, head of the service shop’s marine and boat division at Caddie Labar’s boat dealer in Dallas, called E15 “junk” and said it can impact gas lines, carburetors and fuel systems and cause rubber to break down.

“Boats have gas line hoses which are rubber. That’s the big thing. What it also does is it actually sucks moisture right out of the air and puts it in the gas tank of the boat. Most gas tanks of boats are ventilated,” he said. “Mr. Trump promised the farmers and the farmers are trying to make money. I have to support him but I don’t like it.”

A spokesperson for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said E15 can be used in flexible-fuel vehicles, model year 2001 and newer cars and light-duty trucks.

Yet, Subaru officials caution drivers with newer vehicles in their owners’ manuals not to use gasoline that contains more than 10 percent ethanol.

Bobby Murray, service manager for Minooka Subaru in Moosic, said E15 could damage fuel injectors and seals. Subaru also doesn’t cover E15 under warranty.

Dan DelBalso, co-owner of Pat & Dan’s DelBalso Ford in Kingston, doesn’t recommend using E15 in newer Ford vehicles. If they are flexible-fuel vehicles, however, it is OK, he said.

Other automakers, including BMW, Mercedes, Mazda, Mitsubishi and Volvo, have vehicle models not approved for E15 since it can harm engines and drivers are encouraged to check their owners’ manuals.

E15 should not be used in boats as well as vehicles with heavy-duty engines such as school buses, transit buses and delivery trucks, on-highway and non-road motorcycles, snowmobiles, engines in equipment such as lawnmowers and chainsaws as well as model year 2000 and older cars, light-duty trucks and medium-duty passenger vehicles, the EPA spokesperson said.

The new rule from the Trump administration and EPA will allow some gas stations to sell blends containing up to 15 percent ethanol year-round. It ends a summertime ban that former President Barack Obama’s Environmental Protection Agency imposed in 2011.

Some Sheetz stores in Northeast Pennsylvania, including locations in on Route 93 in Sugarloaf Twp., West Front Street in Berwick and 500 Mount Pleasant Drive, Scranton, have E10 and E15 available.

LaBar said he thinks only a few places will see the gasoline blend made of 15 percent ethanol year-round.

“The farmers can’t produce that much fuel, not the way we use gas in America,” he said.

Some authorized gas stations, including Newell Fuel at 1355 Memorial Highway in Shavertown, Blue Ridge Travel Plaza in Mountain Top and Wawa on State Route 940 in White Haven, sell ethanol-free gasoline.

Higher ethanol blends tend to be slightly cheaper than the standard 10-percent gasoline.

Today, 97 percent of the country’s fuel mix contains about 10 percent ethanol and John-Michael Donahue, spokesman for the National Marine Manufacturers Association, said he is concerned that the availability of E15 will continue to spread.

In addition to damaging marine engines, he said E15 is prohibited by federal law to be used in small engines in lawn mowers, chainsaws and other power equipment.

Gas pumps that include E15 are marked with a very small orange label which Donahue said is not enough to protect consumers from misuse.

He is concerned when people fill up at gas stations during summer boating season, a rising number of them will use the wrong fuel that contains the blend with 15% ethanol.

The National Marine Manufacturers Association has repeatedly voiced opposition to the EPA’s proposal leading up to the action on E15, calling it a direct threat to consumer safety.

Thom Dammrich, president of the National Marine Manufacturers Association, said for more than a year, the recreational boating industry and other stakeholders have been “working hard to convey the harmful effects of E15 and dissuade the administration from moving forward with this now official rule.”

“Our industry remains steadfastly opposed to this policy given a simple set of facts: E15 destroys engines in a wide range of everyday consumer products, contains less energy content than gasoline and other biofuel alternatives, and is terrible for the environment — all of which are reasons the summer sale ban on E15 was implemented in the first place,” Dammrich said in a statement.

Dammrich added that the absence of better consumer education and protection efforts in the new rule further jeopardizes the safety of boaters and others who use small gas-powered engines.

More than 60 percent of Americans mistakenly assume that any gas sold at their local station is safe for all their products and nearly nine in 10 say the government should do more to protect consumers from “misfueling” with E15, he said.

“With hard-to-read, often hidden warning labels serving as the only misfueling prevention measure currently in place, it’s hard to fathom why the EPA rebuffed even modest reforms to at the pump safeguards,” Dammrich said.

By lifting the restrictions on the sale of higher ethanol blends of gasoline, Trump kept a campaign promise he made to farmers suffering from the trade war from China and his decision to impose tariffs.

Ethanol is made from corn and other crops and the action on E15 was hailed as win for farmers.

Gary Moyer Sr., who owns 130 acres of farmland in Hollenback Twp. where he grows corn and soybeans and raises beef cattle, said he is sure the final rule on E15 will have a positive impact on farmers and they could see an increase in what they are paid for corn.

The Trump administration also recently announced the federal government will spend an additional $16 billion to help farmers hurt by the trade war with China.

Moyer, who ships some of his corn outside of Mifflinville, said he has already seen some extra money this year and “every little bit helps.”

Keith Hilliard, president of the Luzerne County Farm Bureau who grows corn, soybeans, potatoes, wheat and hay on 1,200 acres of farmland in Sugarloaf Twp., said while the new rule could be a win for farmers because they could be paid more money for corn, he is not yet sure of the impact.

“We could see a little bit more money but I don’t know how much,” Hilliard said. “I’m kind of glad to see that we’re trying to be more self-sufficient as a country.”

In a statement, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue said he appreciates President Trump’s “steadfast support for our patriotic farmers and for his commitment to expand the sale of E15 and unleash the full potential of American innovation and ingenuity as we continue to demonstrate our rightful place as the world’s leader in agricultural and energy production.”

“This move to approve the year-round use of E15 in time for the summer driving season provides consumers with more choices when they fill up at the pump, driving demand for our farmers and improving the air we breathe,” Perdue said in the statement. “While the Trump administration and USDA are expanding the ethanol market in the United States, we continue to fight for more export markets in Brazil, Mexico, China, and other countries across the globe.”

https://www.citizensvoice.com/news/e...ines-1.2494503
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:54 AM   #2
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Lovely.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:09 PM   #3
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In addition to damaging marine engines, he said E15 is prohibited by federal law to be used in small engines in lawn mowers, chainsaws and other power equipment.
...
Gas pumps that include E15 are marked with a very small orange label which Donahue said is not enough to protect consumers from misuse.
...
“With hard-to-read, often hidden warning labels serving as the only misfueling prevention measure currently in place, it’s hard to fathom why the EPA rebuffed even modest reforms to at the pump safeguards,” Dammrich said.
One needs look no further than this:

Quote:
The new rule from the Trump administration and EPA will allow some gas stations to sell blends containing up to 15 percent ethanol year-round. It ends a summertime ban that former President Barack Obama’s Environmental Protection Agency imposed in 2011.
Literally everything that Obama did will be undone by Trump.

I have a station around that still pumps E0. If I start to see E15 at the pump, guess I'll be switching over.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:18 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post

I have a station around that still pumps E0. If I start to see E15 at the pump, guess I'll be switching over.
Is that the one in Issaquah? What's the max octane they carry?
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:44 PM   #5
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Is that the one in Issaquah? What's the max octane they carry?
Bill Waters Spirit in the Wedgwood neighborhood. I don't know about octane, but as long as I get 92 I don't really think much about it. I haven't been using this station because I made the decision that the additives from Shell/Chevron were more important for longevity in my DI engine than buying E0.

Last edited by dwf137; 06-10-2019 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:28 PM   #6
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Literally everything that Obama did will be undone by Trump.
Good. Obama sucks.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:24 PM   #7
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I don't know enough about gas stations and how they work. Why would the owner of a gas station get E15 fuel? Would the profit margin be higher?
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:38 PM   #8
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I loathe snopes, but this one is pretty much spot on. Obama also wanted E15 you dingleberries. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/e15-gasoline/

Quote:
“The consequences are so severe that environmentalists and many scientists have now rejected corn-based ethanol as bad environmental policy. But the Obama administration stands by it, highlighting its benefits to the farming industry rather than any negative impact.”
Please don't make this political here. It's the EPA. Obama happened to be President when EPA already tried and were sued to prevent them from doing it back in 2011 (Obama was for it also, for the record). Trump is in EPAs side again, but the 2011 wasn't halted because Obama. Sheesh. And it was proposed in Septemberish timeframe, but there was the shutdown, which further delayed discussion and implementation.

Suit was thrown out, because the automakers didn't have the right to sue to stop it. No merit or something like that.
https://www.feedstuffs.com/story-cou...lenge-52-93840

No one remembers this?
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-it-harms-cars



--kC
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:03 PM   #9
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Please don't make this political here. It's the EPA. Obama happened to be President when EPA already tried and were sued to prevent them from doing it back in 2011 (Obama was for it also, for the record). Trump is in EPAs side again, but the 2011 wasn't halted because Obama. Sheesh. And it was proposed in Septemberish timeframe, but there was the shutdown, which further delayed discussion and implementation.

--kC
The person in charge of the EPA is now a former lobbyist for the coal industry... so there's a lot that's changed between the EPA under Trump and the EPA under Obama... Saying that they both followed the recommendations of the EPA is a little... well... disingenuous.

The rule that was signed into law under Obama limited the volatility of gasoline to limit ground level ozone. So they opened E15 to the marketplace, but volatility limits prohibited it's use in the summer time. This new waiver removes a scientifically founded limit in favor of deregulation. IMO, this is there to toss a bone to farmers because of the game of tariff chicken.


Either way, VW said warranties are kaput with E15, so I will have to keep a close eye on where I fill up from now on. Or maybe just preemptively switch to E0.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:41 PM   #10
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Either way, VW said warranties are kaput with E15, so I will have to keep a close eye on where I fill up from now on. Or maybe just preemptively switch to E0.
VW is fine with e15, at least the owners manual for my 2016 GTI says so.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:34 PM   #11
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VW is fine with e15, at least the owners manual for my 2016 GTI says so.
VW would never fib.
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:39 PM   #12
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VW is fine with e15, at least the owners manual for my 2016 GTI says so.
Digging a bit, it looks like vw started making all cars e15 compliant in 2014. So maybe no big deal.
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:05 PM   #13
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Hey pre, you worried about E15 voiding your warranty?


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Old 06-11-2019, 04:12 PM   #14
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Hey pre, you worried about E15 voiding your warranty?


My Ford factory warranty, yes. QT next to me is selling this crap. But the RS only gets fuel from Costco, a tier 1 fuel provider. I wouldn't put E15 in my mower or weed eater. This crap fuel will eat my bike tanks from the inside out. F Trump and his Fox n Friends Mackdonald's eating fat bertha ass! Can we get a President that actually has an intellect and can think? I'll take a moderate Republican (do they exist anymore?) or a centrist Dem (No AOC thanks!). The Orangutan needs to move to N. Korea and have a got damn party.
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:16 PM   #15
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Pre's feeling better.
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:22 PM   #16
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My Ford factory warranty, yes. QT next to me is selling this crap. But the RS only gets fuel from Costco, a tier 1 fuel provider. I wouldn't put E15 in my mower or weed eater. This crap fuel will eat my bike tanks from the inside out.
Top Tier has nothing to do with E10/E15. Top Tier can still have blends up to 10% ethanol depending on region and provider.
E10 can still eat away at certain things, especially on older cars.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:41 PM   #17
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Hopefully more E30 and E85 coming too. Some markets (Brazil) that these cars are sold in (ex. WRX/GTI) use E20-E25 based fuels. The fuel system is designed to handle to this.

BTW we have a politics section for ORANGE MAN BAD!
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:10 PM   #18
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Hopefully more E30 and E85 coming too. Some markets (Brazil) that these cars are sold in (ex. WRX/GTI) use E20-E25 based fuels. The fuel system is designed to handle to this.

BTW we have a politics section for ORANGE MAN BAD!
I'd say that's questionable... there are so many components that could be different for those markets.
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:57 AM   #19
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E10 can still eat away at certain things, especially on older cars.
Everything I own that uses a carburetor has experienced problems at some point in the last 10 years, and only recently did I learn that it was the E10 causing problems. The deformed diaphragms etc. weren't normal wear and tear.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:49 AM   #20
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Top Tier has nothing to do with E10/E15. Top Tier can still have blends up to 10% ethanol depending on region and provider.
E10 can still eat away at certain things, especially on older cars.
Really? We all know this man, you aren't telling anyone anything. E15, they have to display it at the pump, make the consumer aware, etc. My point that you missed is that Costco doesn't serve this garbage.


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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Avoid Costco gas. They were the most inconsistent gas on the dyno I saw while working with Snail.

Chevron is by far the worst though, that Techryon junk causes issues at the top end on pretty much everything. Good way to lean out a motor quick right when it shouldn't be...
Sorry I don't agree with you. Maybe you have an issue with your local Costco. One location doesn't = all.

I've put every turbocharged car I've owned on the dyno, all with Costco fuel in the tank (93 octane). My sport bikes as well, all tuned on their fuel. No issue in 15 years using their tier 1 fuel. Several dyno sessions I was asked what kind of fuel I use (from where) because my vehicles were all on the high end of HP/TQ and multiple times of "solid fuel" being reiterated. I notice subpar fuel on my bikes easily as an ex AMA tuner tuned them all. I have figured out over 20 years which fueling stations to avoid out in the country where I ride/drive my local twisties. I can tell going through the rev range to redline as the bikes have twice the redlines + as my cars.

All anyone can do is lookup the Tier 1 fueling stations close to their home or where they routinely fuel up.
https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/
The good ole Italian tune up should tell you something about the fuel quality, or throw it on the dyno. I do both. I think you are spreading misinformation.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:57 AM   #21
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Everything I own that uses a carburetor has experienced problems at some point in the last 10 years, and only recently did I learn that it was the E10 causing problems. The deformed diaphragms etc. weren't normal wear and tear.
I've had problems with classic cars and lawn mowers where I've had to rebuild carbs and replace fuel pumps and fuel hoses due to ethanol eating away at the older rubber. While newer fuel hoses clearly state they are able to handle ethanol blends, it's difficult to confirm with rebuild kits and fuel pumps. Around me, I can't get ethanol free premium grade fuel, only mid-grade but the car runs like crap, even when adjusting the timing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pre View Post
Really? We all know this man, you aren't telling anyone anything. E15, they have to display it at the pump, make the consumer aware, etc. My point that you missed is that Costco doesn't serve this garbage.
Chill out. I missed nothing and understood what you were trying to say but your random comment about "Tier 1" fuel makes it sound like you are comparing two unrelated things. There are Top Tier Fuel suppliers that sell E15 too (Conoco, Shell, Velero) and there are probably more that sell or will sell E15.

Yes, I agree clear labels should be used but I don't see it happening beyond what we see for up to 10% ethanol blends now.

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Originally Posted by Pre View Post
All anyone can do is lookup the Tier 1 fueling stations close to their home or where they routinely fuel up.
https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/.
Really? We all know this man, you aren't telling anyone anything.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:10 PM   #22
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Sorry I don't agree with you. Maybe you have an issue with your local Costco. One location doesn't = all.

I think you are spreading misinformation.
Customers come from all over California and Nevada to Snail so its not any one specific station.

My information was based on cold hard data, but its fine, anyone should contact their local tuners and get info about what fuels have better results (or just which ones have worse results) and go from there. No need to take my word for it.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:10 PM   #23
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But the RS only gets fuel from Costco, a tier 1 fuel provider.
Avoid Costco gas. They were the most inconsistent gas on the dyno I saw while working with Snail.

Chevron is by far the worst though, that Techryon junk causes issues at the top end on pretty much everything. Good way to lean out a motor quick right when it shouldn't be...
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:47 AM   #24
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A lot of people think the gas they buy is made,shipped, delivered from that name on the sign. Not really. Yeah the Top Tier is Top Tier ( If you own Audi or VW buy what’s on that card n the glove box save for proof too, I put all my gas on discover card so I have every drop accounted 4 so they can’t screw you over not honoring warranty when your top end is tar). Anyway the driver jumps out throws some crap in the tank of tanker.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...gasoline_where

From refinery to consumer
U.S. petroleum refineries make gasoline and other petroleum products from crude oil and other liquids produced in the United States or imported from other countries. Nearly all of the gasoline sold in the United States is produced in the United States.

Most gasoline moves from refineries through pipelines to large storage terminals near consuming areas. From the storage terminals, gasoline is usually sent by truck to smaller blending terminals for processing into finished motor gasoline, which is then delivered by truck to gasoline fueling stations.
Gasoline is sent through shared pipelines where commingling occurs
Gasoline and other petroleum products are sent through shared pipelines in batches. These batches are not physically separated in pipelines, and some mixing, or commingling, of products occurs. Because this mixing occurs, the gasoline and other products must be tested as they leave pipelines to see if they still meet required specifications. If the products fail to meet local, state, or federal specifications, they are sent back to a refinery for additional processing.

A graphic illustration showing the flow of imported crude oil from the tanker to the gas station.
Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration (public domain)

Click to enlarge »
Can customers find out which country or state the gasoline at a location station comes from?
The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) cannot identify the specific origin of gasoline sold at fueling stations. The gasoline a company sells in its branded fueling stations is not necessarily produced by that company.

Gasoline brands get mixed during shipment
Gasoline is sold at more than 100,000 retail outlets across the nation, and many are unbranded dealers that may sell gasoline produced by different companies. Branded stations may not necessarily sell gasoline produced by the companies that own the stations. Gasoline from different refineries is often combined for shipment through pipelines, and different companies that own service stations in the same area may purchase gasoline at the same bulk storage and distribution terminal.

The only difference between gasoline at one company's fueling stations and gasoline sold by another company is the small amount of additives that some companies blend into the gasoline after it leaves the pipeline and before it gets to their fueling stations.

Crude oil also gets mixed at the refinery
Even if EIA could determine the origin of the gasoline sold at fueling stations, the source of the crude oil and other liquids used at refineries may vary. Most refiners use a mix of crude oils from various domestic and foreign sources. The mix of crude oils can change based on the relative cost and availability o
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:33 AM   #25
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The only difference between gasoline at one company's fueling stations and gasoline sold by another company is the small amount of additives that some companies blend into the gasoline after it leaves the pipeline and before it gets to their fueling stations.
this is mostly the truth. There are some exceptions, but for most mainstream automotive gas stations, this is the reality.

Personally, I won't touch Costco gas mostly because of that ****ing line, and the fact that none of them are convenient to me. I sat in a buddies car one day who only fuels up there... we sat there for 25 minutes waiting for gas. No thank you. The extra few bucks is worth my time. They say money cannot buy time, but in this case, it can.
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