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Old 01-09-2019, 12:27 PM   #1
trueno92
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Default School me on Carberry 4.2?

Hi All, Been playing around with flashing and got some work going on with the Carberry map.

Everytime I am running it, i notice a significant hesitation as the car gets into boost as it crests passing 0psi. It happens every time.

What I am suspecting is the timing. I had transferred a few tables over that are from my non-carberry map and seem to be working well non-carberry

MAF
WGDC
Boost Targets
AFR Targets
AVCS
Ignition Timing

I noticed the ignition timing tables have a totally different axis measurement and was wondering if anyone knew how to rework my timing values to satisfy the carberry measurements.
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:15 PM   #2
CarmelValleyWRX
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ALL the tables are different. Stock roms use load(g/rev). Cranberry uses MAP readings. So essentially none of the stock maps will work. You have to log a bunch of data and build a new set of maps.
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:10 PM   #3
trueno92
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Thanks Carmel,

Yeah I took a look at using other EJ205 maps as a base, but it seems they are specific for the USDM EJ205 and my engine is 9.5:1 compression ratio and I thought the timing should change and is having the most adverse impact.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:40 PM   #4
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As IAT increases or decreases, engine load (mass of air charge, per revolution) changes because air/density fundamentals

so the engine load at a given pressure will be different at different temps, there isn't a way to get MAP axis to exactly reflect the principles of having load axis timing.

You can figure out the load at all the RPMxMAP points if using speed density (g/rev / psig) multiplier + g/rev offset * VE * IAT, etc. but this gives you a timing table that makes sense just for one temp/load point. Interpolating is fun, kids.

MAP axis works, but it's not preferred by me. It can however eliminate problems for engines that have load calculating issues (injector calibration problems, MAF problems, etc.)

use the definitions in romraider or figure out how to do it with ecuflash, either way, you might check into changing the axis type to load (g/rev) and then assembling a table into it.

changing the axis type does not modify the table, there is no conversion other than how the RAW data from the ROM is interpreted for the user differently (and that the ecu looks up LOAD instead of MAP)

Carberry has a bigger timing map than all other 16-bit ROMs, so you'll have to at least figure out what to do with the extra column or three and potentially extra rows, but you've already been flashing away so you must have seen that already.

Is your 9.5:1 a 2.0L of the ej20y JDM 04-07 LGT or JDM non-avcs ej205 variety, or did you swap internals for more compression?

also, base timing is essentially total timing, without other compensations
knock correction retard is kinda opposite of knock correction advance. For stock MAF roms, total timing is base timing plus (advance/16) * IAM where total timing for Carberry is base timing minus a proportional amount of KCR if IAM is less than 16. so if IAM is 12, 25% of the value of the KCR table is reduced from base timing. if IAM is 8, half the value of a given cell is the value of timing being cut from base.

add base+KCA from that style ROM to get base for carberry

do you have a tune that was working before on the original MAF ROM?
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueno92 View Post

I noticed the ignition timing tables have a totally different axis measurement and was wondering if anyone knew how to rework my timing values to satisfy the carberry measurements.
I can help you out but I would need your rom and as many logs as you can give me to get a new table set up. PM me if youre interested
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Old 01-17-2019, 11:42 AM   #6
trueno92
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Hey guys, ok cool, ppl still read forums.. you guys READ!!

Nasioc is so dead that i think the whole world went to meets to vape and talk about fitment....

so yes, I can provide a map but the map that is working best is a non carberry map. I'd really want to look at carberry as I also have grey coil packs and want to take advantage of the longer ignition dwell times.

I think my compression ratio is actually 9:1 and i was confusing myself. Its a EJ205 but from a 2006-2007 GGA wrx. Drive by cable. it has AVCS and TGV from the factory and I can confirm AVCS is functional.

Its been -15 degrees celcius so i haven't done much driving but the car setup is:

stock intake minus snorkle
STI Dark Blue Injectors
9:1 compression
VF48
AVO silicone inlet
Catless 3" Turboback
255 walbro

its running smooth to 19psi without any hesitation or pinging on 94 octane gas, but i notice im not htting 12 afr on my wideband.. its still around 12.9 - does it matter that its -15 ambiant intake temp?

im short on logging but i can post up the map. Ive probably gone thorugh 20 revisions of it by now,
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:26 AM   #7
CarmelValleyWRX
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i can send you a map that i developed for my car

9.5:1 forged pistons

79mm stroke

JDM AVCS/stock AVCS ej205 cams max 30 advance on my map currently.

tgv delete

speed density

IAT sensor (gm fast response) in the TGV

VF48

91 octane.

might be close enough to your setup to get you going on a MAP timing map shape at least. you will need to do your own boost control because im running EWG/short DP stock 3rd cat/cat back.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:55 AM   #8
trueno92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmelValleyWRX View Post
i can send you a map that i developed for my car

9.5:1 forged pistons

79mm stroke

JDM AVCS/stock AVCS ej205 cams max 30 advance on my map currently.

tgv delete

speed density

IAT sensor (gm fast response) in the TGV

VF48

91 octane.

might be close enough to your setup to get you going on a MAP timing map shape at least. you will need to do your own boost control because im running EWG/short DP stock 3rd cat/cat back.
Carmel, that would be awesome. I saw your dynoplot in the AVCS tuning thread and its impressive - no joke. I am working with the cold ambiants currently but I am still trying to hit my AFR targets as from what I can see from my WB, it doesn't look like I am hitting them - yet... so when i see you hold a solid 11AFR on your charts, it looks like i have some work to do.

i'll pm you my addy.
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:21 PM   #9
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keep in mind that was my front o2 sensor on virtual dyno so it pegs low and changes based on turbine pressure. but my AFR on the WBO2 is similarly smooth though. its way easier to get the AFR smooth with SD tuning (IMO) because the table is 3D instead of the MAF being 2D.
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Old 01-20-2019, 01:56 PM   #10
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Carmel, the map is great. I bumped the timing across the board 1.03x multiplier and the jdm EJ205 is really happy with the IAM 16. Keep in mind im running 94 octane, and the smoothness is noticable.


Maybe you guys can help me with this weird idle issue. THe engine once in closed loop and while coasting wants to idle at 1750 rpm until i come to full stop. Once at a stop the revs drop and settle at normal idle parameters.

I can't find any other changes to adjust anything in the map. it will idle just fine at 750-800 rpm if I am stationary... normal non-carberry map doesn't show any issues with idle.... ideas of where i should look?
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Old 01-20-2019, 02:37 PM   #11
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well my map has quite a bit more timing near idle in the base map. it could be a delay switch between base timing table and idle timing table. also keep in mind there is an idle timing table for stopped and also one while rolling. my car hangs too but i don't mind since i have a 9lb flywheel. are you running my AVCS timing as well?

Last edited by CarmelValleyWRX; 01-20-2019 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:56 PM   #12
trueno92
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yes, i am also running your AVCS tables, ignition dwell and injector timing tables

I checked out rolling and stationary idles, and there doesn't appear to be anything that points to keeping the revs up between shifts. I thought maybe it has to do with NTLS and i made some changes at the enable point, but it was disabled anyway.

this is really odd, and I can't figure out why it would happen..?
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:27 PM   #13
trueno92
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Been working at this Carberry thing for a few weeks now and with CarmelValley, I learned a few things… and maybe learned them incorrectly…. But either way, I figured I should try to post it here to help others with Carberry.

The big difference I found is the normal maps are all g/s scaled. Carberry is mainly sensor voltage and RPM scaled. So copying tables doesn’t work the same way… so with that said, AFM is the same so it can be leveraged from your normal map… and I have found similar data points for AVCS as well.

Wastegate control is heavily dependent on the turbo dynamics values and IAT/ECT comps. These tables will skew your wg tables to help the wgdc achieve the boost in the target boost table. Inclines/declines and intake air temp work against the wgdc operating perfectly and ECT temps will keep you from borking your engine before its warm.

WGDC frequency is listed in the ALCOHOL INJECTION tree, under PWM frequency. Even with Alcohol injection disabled, the PWM frequency for the WG is still controlled.

Timing - this is very important to the JDM 9:1 EJ205 - as I found getting into boost would cause hesitation until the timing tables were brought up - CarmelValley can add more detail around this part

Ignition Dwell - there are 2 different dwell maps that correspond with the Grey or Black coils that are common on our engines. I believe this is a millisecond metered charge time for the coils to optimize spark.

AVCS - this is a biggie and I copied from another Carberry map, similar around stock settings but notice most stock Carberry maps are EJ207 based and can run more timing - lower compression - EJ205 and EJ207 should not have the same AVCS tables - as I have seen EJ207 maps get up to 45 degrees, but professionally tuned EJ205 maps run only up to ~30 degrees - this has been a big mystery. The way to get the most out of avcs is around HIGH LOAD, high throttle position, then valve phasing will help optimize gas flow for maximum scaveging effect in combination with WGDC, to spool up the turbo quicker than an engine without AVCS. When tuning avcs all these factors work together, so its very turbo dependant and WGDC value dependant as there is some theory around running high wgdc at low rpms = punchy throttle feel.

DECEL tables - interesting point here, keeping all these at 7000 disables DECEL - and can mess with your idle. Also note the delay tables which I think would be more effective as DECAY, as keeping a high delay keeps decel overrun fueling on a bit more between shifts. Running very -20 timing for these can also make cool noises.

Injector scaling - 16 bit maps run sti blues at 550cc but 32 bit map sti blues are 560cc. there is a difference here on how 16bit and 32 bit scale the same injectors...

Injector timing - this can make stuff feel really smooth or notably rough. I cribbed mine from another EJ205 map and the difference was butter. Unless you really know what you are doing, I think timing and AVCS will come into play here for real fine tuning but for the rest of us, there are really 3 tables to choose from: USDM EJ205 = 360 for all values, and then other for JDM AVCS EJ205, and a 3rd variation for EJ207.

Fun stuff: Antilag - running 95% IAC is neat and I suspect the AVCS and timing tables are ONLY operational here when you are off throttle, to maximize the gas flow out of the cylinder - so this needs to be as deoptimized as possible compared to the rest of the map where you are optimizing to keep all the power in the cylinder. Keeping IAC on all the time MESSES WITH YOUR BRAKE BOOSTER, so its prob not advised to use in traffic.

Launch Control: Standard stuff here, I kept mine on all the time and its only engaged when the 3 criteria are met: 1. Clutch is down, 2. Neutral position switch reads in gear, and 3. Gas pedal is down WOT. Then revs will cut at the designated area.

Ok guys, I will try to update this as I mess more with my map - again to help myself and others learn Carberry.

Last edited by trueno92; 02-06-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 02-23-2019, 09:37 PM   #14
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i have noticed antilag tables are active more than just off throttle. i think they are active whenever coolant is up to temp and antilag switch is on. launch control has nothing to do with neutral or clutch or throttle position. its purely engine rpm and disables above a set speed.
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Old 02-26-2019, 07:47 AM   #15
trueno92
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CARMEL!!

Check out my emails if you get a chance!! Made significant improvements!!
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Old 02-26-2019, 07:51 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmelValleyWRX View Post
i have noticed antilag tables are active more than just off throttle. i think they are active whenever coolant is up to temp and antilag switch is on. launch control has nothing to do with neutral or clutch or throttle position. its purely engine rpm and disables above a set speed.
Regarding LC, it must do with
1. Below speed threshold (defined in rom)
2. Clutch in, this has to happen
3. Pretty sure car has to sense its in gear, as I had it clutch in and throttle would hit readline, but if in 1st, it will spark cut and build 10psi, -20 timing, cut 6 from 7 events.

Else it won't use the retard ign timing to build boost.. ? Right?
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:32 AM   #17
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Whatever anti-lag tables (besides PWM, we like to move that) are going on, are active whenever the condition occurs, such as timing during idle/off-throttle, and it's main feature of adding IAC and removing decel fuel cut, adding a component to requested AFR at idle/decel

It just has to be between temps and above/below set RPM with the switch on.

As for launch control, as long as vehicle speed is below whatever value, and it is switched on, then neutral or gear or not there is no difference. It's active until above the speed threshold, regardless of being in neutral with the clutch in or out or being in gear.

I have map 1 target and wastegate duty tables for normal operation and use map 2 target and wastegate duty tables for anti-lag. I use one switch for both. If the coolant is not up to temp the second set of tables will still switch for target boost/wastegate duty, but it won't run the open loop table, avcs, IAC, or idle timing from the ALS tables until temp is up. once the sensor is good, it'll kick in and wheeeeeeeeeee all the way home.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:44 PM   #18
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my LC works weather im in neutral or in gear. if my car is parked in neutral i can go under the hood and open the throttle and get LC. there is no clutch switch wired in unless you add one for NLTS. its purely a speed sensor based thing. the stock clutch switch only goes to the cruise control module.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueno92 View Post
CARMEL!!

Check out my emails if you get a chance!! Made significant improvements!!
hi there. been busy with work but read your emails now. i would not use my VE tables as my engine/turbo/intake/exhaust is different than any off the shelf JDM or USDM setup or common aftermarket setup. little things make a big difference in VE. the stock carberry VE ma was very rich so i just did 2nd gear pulls on WG pressure to get close then do 3rd gear if you have space to get it more dialed. then up the boost 1-2 psi to the next column in the map and tune it the same way. i have been running my car full SD 100% open loop and have been liking it. its real easy to tune out any lean or rich spots in open loop. and AFR stays very solid with the IAT in the TGV housing. its getting slightly better fuel mileage at 14.5:1 open loop than i was getting at 14.7 closed loop for some reason.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:51 PM   #20
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So, total noob question here. I've never much followed the ECU/tuning side of things.

So I recall years back that there was a tool for converting a MAF map to a speed density map...or something along those lines. Ring a bell for anyone?

Thanks!
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
So, total noob question here. I've never much followed the ECU/tuning side of things.

So I recall years back that there was a tool for converting a MAF map to a speed density map...or something along those lines. Ring a bell for anyone?

Thanks!
Lol you a noob....

The only think I can think of is Airboys spreadsheet
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic957.html

Or the tool I usually use and prefer
https://github.com/vimsh/mafscaling
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:39 PM   #22
Homemade WRX
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Ah, that maf scaling link looks like a promising one. I'll dig right in.

Thanks.
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